32 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

I'm writing this for those who stuff an Gauss into their Atlas/Cataphract's side torso to give themselves the illusion of suddenly being better at long-range combat. I will underline the better traits for AC20, and italic the upper hands of Gauss in case you feel like getting straight to the point.

To lay it down first: If you can put an AC20 into your massive machine man, don't go with Gauss. Because AC20 is almost always better than a Gauss in every way. Almost always.

Many may choose Gauss instead of AC20 in favor of its better punch over range. Which is almost correct, but let's first do a bit math about AC20. An AC20 has an effective range of 270m, but also an astonishing max range of 810m. That means, assuming the damage drop-off is linear (if anyone could provide the damage drop-off rate I would be very grateful), then a quarter way beyond AC20's max range, which is 405m, it would still deal 15 damage, the same as a Gauss. By the time an AC20 shell reaches 540m, it would only deal 10 damage. In short, when the target is beyond 400m, Gauss would deal more damage. Also, since Gauss slug travels faster, it would be easier to hit farther targets. Honestly, if you ask me, I'd say you're better off with ERPPC or ERLL. Or you can do stuff like boating AC2.

And when target is within 400m, AC20 is infinitely better. Both AC20 and Gauss has a 4-second cooldown, thus an AC20 would have a better DPS (5, to be precise, compare to Gauss' 3.75. An AC20 weights one less ton than Gauss, allowing you to carry whatever you see fit (ammo if you ask me). An AC20 simply hits better and harder than a Gauss, and if you argue Gauss' slug speed is faster than AC20 shell, then you should stop trying to hit moths and mosquitoes and start shooting the big guys.

Not mentioning that after the Feb. 19 patch, AC20 has 18 health points, comparing to Gauss who has...3. Oh, and Gauss itself EXPLODES. If you put Gauss in your arm - which you can do with many 'Mechs because Gauss takes only 7 crit slots while AC20 takes 10 - then it mostly cease to be a problem. But it would be a very bad idea to stuff a Gauss in your side torso.

Now the one last thing is that AC20 generates 6 heats, while Gauss generates marginally none. However, I really don't see that an issue as long as you're willing to put anything more than the 10 engine DHS in your 'Mech.

In short, as long as your combat is within 400m, which is still the case in most maps, then AC20 is definitely better when comes to side torso. Gauss however is still a very competent sidegrade, especially when there're more 'Mechs out there that have arm ballistic hardpoints that could only fit in a Gauss. You're welcome, ladies.

Bonus: My favouite DDC build. I always think an Atlas without an AC20 - or twin UAC5 is basically limp, and for a brawler build this is almost the perfection.

[Elandyll]

I both agree and disagree with you.

Is an AC20 far better for a brawler Atlas? Well, obviously yes, for the reasons you have already stated (18HP vs 3, exploding Gauss in Side Torso, etc.).

But is AC20 -always- better than a Gauss for -every- mech? No, I don't think so.

I think PGI has done a good job at making the two weapons what they are supposed to be. One (Gauss) is a ballistics based sniper tool, while the other (AC20) is a Brawler's best friend.

You argue (I guess you really hate the Gauss?) that for Sniping you'd be better off with a ERPPC or a ERLL (err, no).

Well, let's compare ERPPC vs Gauss then.

Gauss: 15t, 7 slots, 1 Heat, 15gmg, 660m opti -> 1980m, 4s cooldown (3.75dps) and projectile travels at 1200m/s

ERPPC: 7t, 3 slots, 11 Heat, 10dmg, 810m opti -> 1620m, 3s cooldown (3.33dps) and projectile travels at 2000m/s

I would actually argue that hey are both quite similar in a way, and are a matter of preference ballistics vs energy.

But there are some notable differences, in particular Heat (Negative for ERPPC) and counter to ECM now (positive for ERPPC).
This being said, If you want something akin to the punch of a Gauss (let alone dual Gauss), you will have to boat 2xERPPC.
We are then talking about this

2xERPPC: 14t, 6 slots, 22Heat, 20dmg, rest is the same. Lot more similar to the Gauss eh? Aye .. except that pesky 22 Heat to dissipate.

In the end, I hate overheating, and I just generally won't touch a ERPPC (or PPC) with a ten foot pole. Well ... except for my K2. I chose the best of both worlds and went 1xGauss and 1x ERPPC to balance things out between Heat and having something not relying on ammo (and the latest EMP effect being a bonus, obviously).

Edited by Elandyll, 21 February 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

Elandyll, on 21 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Well, let's compare ERPPC vs Gauss then.

While you sir digressed big time (I was saying my preference of ERPPC is my personal opinion, and never intended to bring ERPPC into the guide), thank you for basically made another sniper weapon guide that concluded the pros and cons of ERPPC.

ERPPC is still really something that you'll have to center your whole build around, I boat my K2 with 2xERPPC and 20DHS and could still barely handle the heat.

[Segoris]

Elandyll, on 21 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

But is AC20 -always- better than a Gauss for -every- mech? No, I don't think so.

But there are some notable differences, in particular Heat (Negative for ERPPC) and counter to ECM now (positive for ERPPC).
This being said, If you want something akin to the punch of a Gauss (let alone dual Gauss), you will have to boat 2xERPPC.
We are then talking about this

2xERPPC: 14t, 6 slots, 22Heat, 20dmg, rest is the same. Lot more similar to the Gauss eh? Aye .. except that pesky 22 Heat to dissipate.

Helm seems to be saying that for brawling AC/20 is always better, not that it is always better in every situation for every mech. Specifically, that at >400m Gauss is better than AC/20 depending on the damage falloff.

As for (ER)PPC vs Gauss - IMO you've left out additional notable differences. Gauss is not only 15t and 7slots, but it is 15t, 7 slots, with additional slots/tonnage required for ammo, (location determining its importance) CASE, with a greater chance of Gauss being destroyed and useless (potentially self-damaging). It is not just the weapons in a straight comparison in this case as it was with AC/20 vs Gauss. Ballistic vs ballistic is easy. This is a comparison which needs to also take into consideration how much more limiting Gauss is for your mobility and number of shots one may fire. that becomes more mech dependant of a debate than anything though.

[Regrets]

What's the projectile speed? I think my Jenner can run circles around the AC20 shell.

[Hex Pallett]

Regrets, on 21 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

What's the projectile speed? I think my Jenner can run circles around the AC20 shell.

Well I've faceblasted a few Lights with my DDC's AC20. The key is to let your teammate shoot the fly, and catch the moment to deal the killing blow.

Plus it's not like I'm saying that you should only carry an AC20....

[Kyutaru]

How about the AC2s? Would boating a bunch of them be more effective than an AC20? It obviously does less damage, but the refire rate and accuracy they have...

[Edustaja]

Sould compare to the 2xUAC/5 too. I personally think it's the most flexible weaponry to add to a close range atlas.

[Hex Pallett]

Kyutaru, on 21 February 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

How about the AC2s? Would boating a bunch of them be more effective than an AC20? It obviously does less damage, but the refire rate and accuracy they have...

Edustaja, on 21 February 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Sould compare to the 2xUAC/5 too. I personally think it's the most flexible weaponry to add to a close range atlas.

This is gonna soon turn into a full ballistic guide....

(Finland is an awesome country by the way. Suomi is IMO among the top of awesome-sounding languages.)

I've tried both AC20 and UAC5x2 setup on my DDC, both with successful results. The problem to me is, I usually forget to use my SRM if I'm fully focused on shooting my UACs. I specifically enjoy my rhythmic laser-AC-SRM triple-punch, but honestly when target is beyond 100m, dual-UAC5 shreds armor much better. As long as they don't jam - which is another thing I hate.

And there're times when you only have one ballistic hardpoint in your side torso.

AC2 is my favorite direct-fire support weapon. There's nothing scarier for an LRMboat than an enemy AC2 gunboat, which could deal significant damage when those LRMs are still in mid-air. I find a single AC2 less effective than any other ballistic, since even the weapon itself is very accurate, the target's movement would cause those low-damage shells hitting all over the places.

Which is why I always recommend carrying three or four of them.

Edited by Helmstif, 21 February 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[Skribs]

Most maps have some decent sniping spots, Caustic and Alpine are made for them. If I was building around "I want something for brawling, but also ranged capability" the guass would definitely win out.

Personally, I like XL engines, because I can go faster with less weight (and most of the time if I lose a torso side I'm pretty much toast anyway), so the gauss exploding isn't a big factor for me. I will agree that for a pure brawler the AC/20 is better, but if you're trying to find something good at both ranges there is a clear winner.

[NRP]

Now that I've mastered my K2, I'm thinking about changing its build, which has been 2 AC/20s + 2 MLs. Absolutely fantastic punch, but too slow. I tried PPCs on it, but while I did a lot of damage, I found I didn't get many kills. Not a good finisher.

I was thinking of trying a dual gauss setup. What do you guys think?

[Hex Pallett]

NRP, on 22 February 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Now that I've mastered my K2, I'm thinking about changing its build, which has been 2 AC/20s + 2 MLs. Absolutely fantastic punch, but too slow. I tried PPCs on it, but while I did a lot of damage, I found I didn't get many kills. Not a good finisher.

I was thinking of trying a dual gauss setup. What do you guys think?

You lose a significant chunk of macho if you don't load your K2 with PPC.

Be patiend, Jagermech is coming.

[NRP]

2 or 4?

[Hex Pallett]

NRP, on 22 February 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

2 or 4?

As long as they appear on the shoulders

[Splinters]

The one tip that is missing is that do not combine a Gauss rifle in a torso with an XL engine. When the Gauss explodes most likely that torso is going to be gone or almost gone and likely taking the engine with it. Your essentially making your XL engine instead of 3 slots out of 12, 10 out of 12 for crit chances. I've taken advantage of this fact and taken down way too many Atlas via that method who think they are saving tonnage for more weapons but die so quickly when the RT is gone.

If you can put the Gauss in the arm, there is an argument to be made for heat/range reasons over AC/20. With an AC/20 you are most likely putting it in a torso (YLW and maybe another excepted) that means no XL as well which is worth noting when building mechs.

-S

[Golfin Man]

Good points but you sure do come off as...high and mighty

[CSLaoch]

For me, the deal breaker with the AC20 is the shell speed (which you did mention, but I'm not sure it really established anything). The AC20 travels slow enough, that from the time your mind registers the click, you click, and the shell fires/travels, anything going above 50 with the basic unlocks could have stopped, turned, or backpeddled. The Gauss drastically reduces the time given for the target to counter maneuver. It also doesn't hurt to be able to hit the scouts easier. I've enjoyed many a kill in my gauss kitty where scouts run around corners not knowing what's waiting for them, and watching them explode.

[Hex Pallett]

I did mention the solution of AC20's shell speed problem, and the solution was quite simple: HIT BIGGER TARGETs.

[NRP]

Well technically, he is high and mighty.

[Royalewithcheese]

Splinters, on 22 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

The one tip that is missing is that do not combine a Gauss rifle in a torso with an XL engine. When the Gauss explodes most likely that torso is going to be gone or almost gone and likely taking the engine with it. Your essentially making your XL engine instead of 3 slots out of 12, 10 out of 12 for crit chances. I've taken advantage of this fact and taken down way too many Atlas via that method who think they are saving tonnage for more weapons but die so quickly when the RT is gone.

Unless you're a gausscat

But yeah, I have no idea why an Atlas pilot would ever put in an XL engine, much less an XL engine and explosive things in the side torsos. One of the (many) reasons that Atlases rock is that if they blow up half your mech, the remaining half of your mech can probably still blow up their mech. Why would someone want to stop being able to do this?

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 22 February 2013 - 07:02 PM.