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My Issue With Elo


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#1 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

It's broken. I've been playing since closed beta and have a positive W/L record. I'm not a bad player and I understand the mechanics of the match. I can do well, but only if surrounded by people that know not to stand on their head and try to **** in their own mouth. That's all I've been getting (for the most part, there are exception). As a result, I'm losing a LOT of matches.

How the hell is this fair? From my understanding, ELO is ONLY based on your W/L record. That being the case, pugging is doing nothing but making my ELO worse. I don't really have any problem with getting in a team but I don't always want to do that. I'm more of a solitary guy. It hasn't really been a problem until now.

Now, I have to babysit the new players. Don't get me wrong, I like new players. They keep the gears turning and money flowing. However, I don't want to train them every damned match AND be punished for their ineptitude.

I want to play with better players. The only way I can currently think of to do this is to ALWAYS play in a 4 man. I feel like I'm being forced to team. The moment I feel forced to do something in a game is usually about the time I leave it.

Please, tell me it's a fluke. Tell me ELO doesn't work that way. Tell me SOMETHING to keep my hopes up. I currently feel like I'm being punished for the way I prefer to play.

#2 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

elo started churning after feb 5 patch. all w/l before that don't count.and i feel your pain but there are more good matches than before. you gotta admit that.

#3 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 22 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

elo started churning after feb 5 patch. all w/l before that don't count.and i feel your pain but there are more good matches than before. you gotta admit that.


No, I don't admit that at all. Probably half my matches are steamrolls. Most of the time, my team runs off individually to their deaths then ***** at ME for trying to corral their stupid *****. There's ALWAYS someone on my team that's running around, shooting at the ground or SPRAYING LASERS all over the damned place. It's VERY frustrating to feel like I've been put in the "special" class when I'm damn sure not "special".

#4 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

Posted Image

#5 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 22 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Posted Image


I really wish I could downvote you but damnit, that dog needs a pettin'.

EDIT: I'm so mad, I'm screwing up apostrophes!

Edited by Carnivoris, 22 February 2013 - 06:57 PM.


#6 Oy of MidWorld

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:02 PM

I am under the impression that matches have gotten a lot worse, even when playing in a 2 - 4 premade.

#7 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

I know they say it's going to get better, but how can it get better for ME when I'm losing so many matches? ELO should take individual accomplishments into consideration rather than your W/L ratio, ESPECIALLY now when we're getting matched with all sorts of wacko people.

#8 Erasus Magnus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostOy of MidWorld, on 22 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I am under the impression that matches have gotten a lot worse, even when playing in a 2 - 4 premade.


iam feeling quite the opposite. when i am with my 2-3 other buds, we win a good deal of fights (before elo ~80%, after elo still ~60%).
when i am pugging, however, i get steamrolled pretty badly almost all the time. ;)

k/d is at a tad over 3.0 and win/loss roughly about 3/1, not that these figure matters, though...
but i dont understand why it is so. when with my premade, we won most of the fights pre elo. when i pugged, i had roughly a win/loss of ~50%.

so, assuming that each player has an elo score for lone wolf- behaviour and one for team play, shouldnt i have gotten into the lower bracket when pugging, and a bit higher tier when team playing?

#9 Protoculture

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostCarnivoris, on 22 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's broken. I've been playing since closed beta and have a positive W/L record. I'm not a bad player and I understand the mechanics of the match. I can do well, but only if surrounded by people that know not to stand on their head and try to **** in their own mouth. That's all I've been getting (for the most part, there are exception). As a result, I'm losing a LOT of matches.

How the hell is this fair? From my understanding, ELO is ONLY based on your W/L record. That being the case, pugging is doing nothing but making my ELO worse. I don't really have any problem with getting in a team but I don't always want to do that. I'm more of a solitary guy. It hasn't really been a problem until now.

Now, I have to babysit the new players. Don't get me wrong, I like new players. They keep the gears turning and money flowing. However, I don't want to train them every damned match AND be punished for their ineptitude.

I want to play with better players. The only way I can currently think of to do this is to ALWAYS play in a 4 man. I feel like I'm being forced to team. The moment I feel forced to do something in a game is usually about the time I leave it.

Please, tell me it's a fluke. Tell me ELO doesn't work that way. Tell me SOMETHING to keep my hopes up. I currently feel like I'm being punished for the way I prefer to play.


You are. Check my sig.

#10 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostProtoculture, on 22 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:


You are. Check my sig.

i just went through 3 recursive links and i still don't see it.

#11 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostProtoculture, on 22 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:


You are. Check my sig.


The plain and simple truth is, we just don't have the player pool for a solo-only queue.

#12 Ophidian

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

I don't know if it's ELO. I don't know if it's PPCs with less heat.

What I do know is that before this point, I would at least get a kill each match. Usually 3. Sometimes even 5. That's not bragging, that's just averages.
Since this patch, I have had a total of zero kills. Zero. You understand? We're talking 30-40 games.

And I die in seconds now, and I mean that without exaggeration. Is this how its going to be until my kill/death or win/loss ratio equalizes? Because that's going to take a long time and I don't think I want to deal with that.

What is it? Am I just getting thrown up against higher skilled premades now? Sure seems to be, given all the Founders and faction tags on the opposing teams. Could it be that, for whatever reason, the game keeps slapping me on teams with players who disconnect, go afk, or just have some deep seated need to die in the first 30 seconds? Could be, given how frequently that happens, but don't ask me how THAT works. Could it be pure bad luck? Yes. Sure could be. But it's highly improbable that luck suddenly chose to kick me up the backside right after the patch. That's unlikely to be coincidence.

Sorry, raging slightly at the moment. Hopefully it'll pass.

#13 Mycrus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:44 PM

If you pug more, elo is a good thing.

If you've pugstomped more then you will need always to be in a team to avoid getting rolled...

Call it karma for hyperinflated stats

#14 Carnivoris

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostMycrus, on 22 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you pug more, elo is a good thing.

If you've pugstomped more then you will need always to be in a team to avoid getting rolled...

Call it karma for hyperinflated stats


The great majority of my matches have been solo.

View PostOphidian, on 22 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I don't know if it's ELO. I don't know if it's PPCs with less heat.

What I do know is that before this point, I would at least get a kill each match. Usually 3. Sometimes even 5. That's not bragging, that's just averages.
Since this patch, I have had a total of zero kills. Zero. You understand? We're talking 30-40 games.

And I die in seconds now, and I mean that without exaggeration. Is this how its going to be until my kill/death or win/loss ratio equalizes? Because that's going to take a long time and I don't think I want to deal with that.

What is it? Am I just getting thrown up against higher skilled premades now? Sure seems to be, given all the Founders and faction tags on the opposing teams. Could it be that, for whatever reason, the game keeps slapping me on teams with players who disconnect, go afk, or just have some deep seated need to die in the first 30 seconds? Could be, given how frequently that happens, but don't ask me how THAT works. Could it be pure bad luck? Yes. Sure could be. But it's highly improbable that luck suddenly chose to kick me up the backside right after the patch. That's unlikely to be coincidence.

Sorry, raging slightly at the moment. Hopefully it'll pass.


I'm glad I'm not the only one in this miserable boat.

Edited by Carnivoris, 22 February 2013 - 07:47 PM.


#15 Tickdoff Tank

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 22 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

elo started churning after feb 5 patch. all w/l before that don't count.and i feel your pain but there are more good matches than before. you gotta admit that.


Personally, I am seeing far more 8-0 stomps than before Elo.

#16 Ophidian

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostMycrus, on 22 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you pug more, elo is a good thing.

If you've pugstomped more then you will need always to be in a team to avoid getting rolled...

Call it karma for hyperinflated stats

I pug mostly, but it's obviously not really helping. I do have a team of two others who I often game with, but it's not like we actually coordinate or anything. Mostly its just to chat while gaming.

I'm thinking I need to find a serious MWO team now just to keep up.

To illustrate, I JUST got out of a game. We had 1 disconnect, two scouts died before I even got halfway across the map, two guys never left the base and went afk, and then I frigging got stuck in a building. Team wipe, no kills.

So....woosa.

View PostTickdoff Tank, on 22 February 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:


Personally, I am seeing far more 8-0 stomps than before Elo.

I'd agree.

There are far more lop-sided games than before from where I'm standing. Naturally, due to this matchmaking process, it might be different for different people.

#17 MischiefSC

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:04 PM

I predicted this.

However, there are a couple of excellent solutions.

Group with different people sometimes. Especially newer people or other pugs. Why do you ask? Your Elo is very high, if you group with people with a lower Elo score then you'll be put in matches even further down the ladder than you normally drop with while pugging. Why is that good? When you lose in them it'll have a bigger impact on your Elo. Conversely if you do win it'll only give you a tiny, if any, bump. It'll also let you help herd newbies and pugs.

Newbie pugs are more likely to follow guidance if you've got a couple of friends who chime in supporting your suggestions. If you say 'Let's take the road' and you dropped with someone who says 'great idea' you'll suddenly find that you've got 6 people behind you. If nobody responds (which in newbie pug drops they won't) then you'll get a herd of cats.

Second option, delete your account and start over from scratch. Or just open a second account for pugging.

Not a good option is it. I recommend the first one.

I'm seeing tons of people disconnecting to avoid death now where I didn't before. I think people suspect it affects their Elo or something. Seriously, I see this every 3rd match or so. Same with early discos when it's a map they don't like or they think they're not going to win.

People trying to game the system. There needs to be a Dev post making it clear and precise what isn't going to work to game the system (like discos) and is just, well, cheap and stupid.

Hang in their though. Once you get to the right Elo level then grouping from time to time won't really shake you out of it unless you do a lot of group drops in a row. Like 50 or something crazy like that.

Unless you're caught in Elo hell, which you might be. Those people might not be noobs - they might be pugstompers caught in a Elo level far above their skill now. Losing to vastly higher level people won't cost you much Elo while winning against equal level people will give you a measurable bump. Hence needing to lose several games to better opponents for each game you win against an even team.

Group with newer people or less skilled people. If you keep a 50/50 win/loss rate you'll still end up dropping in Elo since the wins will count for less and the losses more. Make sense?

Edited to add:

My Elo experience has been glorious. Incredible games one after another. It's taken some of the edge off my hate for ECM because I'd say 19 out of 20 games is a hard won victory or loss. I lose when I make a mistake, my team wins when we fight hard and stay on target. It does NOT feel random and it's pushing me to play better. I can say from experience that when you get settled in your Elo it's absolutely incredible.

Edited by MischiefSC, 22 February 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#18 Lynx7725

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

I'm fairly new and not the greatest player, I've been here around end Jan so I did see the pre-ELO days.

As of right now, I'm a bit down on the ELO matchmaking personally. I usually solo, but do a bit of pre-made in a 4-group with some friends. One of them is good, the others are just there to do pew-pew. So our team-work is naturally not great. ELO-matching seems to toss us at other 4-groups, and those tends to be a bit more coordinated than we are. (Not really the ELO-system's fault per se.) And when I solo, I actually end up doing better, because I tend to have to wait (longer) to get into games with other solos, in games that are less likely to have pre-mades. There I get to wing it more, and somehow I do better generally.

So here I have a weird situation. I want to play as a group. The system prefer people play as a group (apparently). But the way the system is set up, if I play in a group, I get less fun because I get curbstomped more often. So to get more fun, I should solo, thus having less fun than previously when I was in a group. Feels like a lose-lose situation to me.

I dunno. I've played with a simple ELO system before and it might just be that the system takes a bit of time to "bed down", and depending on the sensitivity of the implemented system and matchmaking, might just need a bit of tuning. But the experience I had last night when grouped, is that we got stomped regularly. For teams like ours which is more than a bit miscoordinated, it might actually be better if we PUG, which.. sounds odd to me.

What's a good solution? I dunno. I don't think ELO should go away, but it feels like it needs tuning. Maybe, in the longer term, MWO can implement what other MMO does, different servers for different people. Maybe a server where DHS is 2.0, armour is 16 to the ton (so that I can hit a Raven in the nose with my AC20 and it doesn't just shake its head and wrote it off), etc.. A choice of whether you want to relax and pew pew, or be a bit more cutthroat if that's your thing.

#19 Ophidian

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:20 PM

Ok, I think I understand your logic, but that still leaves me with the issue with dropping with sub-par teams in the mean time. Because who actually wants to lose continuously for long periods of time just to make a game work?

Unless you're advising me to join those who DC immediately, which I simply will not do.

Really, if they wanted to do this to us, they should have at least wiped all stats so that everyone started on level ground. I thought they said they were going to do that?

#20 MischiefSC

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostLynx7725, on 22 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

I'm fairly new and not the greatest player, I've been here around end Jan so I did see the pre-ELO days.

As of right now, I'm a bit down on the ELO matchmaking personally. I usually solo, but do a bit of pre-made in a 4-group with some friends. One of them is good, the others are just there to do pew-pew. So our team-work is naturally not great. ELO-matching seems to toss us at other 4-groups, and those tends to be a bit more coordinated than we are. (Not really the ELO-system's fault per se.) And when I solo, I actually end up doing better, because I tend to have to wait (longer) to get into games with other solos, in games that are less likely to have pre-mades. There I get to wing it more, and somehow I do better generally.

So here I have a weird situation. I want to play as a group. The system prefer people play as a group (apparently). But the way the system is set up, if I play in a group, I get less fun because I get curbstomped more often. So to get more fun, I should solo, thus having less fun than previously when I was in a group. Feels like a lose-lose situation to me.

I dunno. I've played with a simple ELO system before and it might just be that the system takes a bit of time to "bed down", and depending on the sensitivity of the implemented system and matchmaking, might just need a bit of tuning. But the experience I had last night when grouped, is that we got stomped regularly. For teams like ours which is more than a bit miscoordinated, it might actually be better if we PUG, which.. sounds odd to me.

What's a good solution? I dunno. I don't think ELO should go away, but it feels like it needs tuning. Maybe, in the longer term, MWO can implement what other MMO does, different servers for different people. Maybe a server where DHS is 2.0, armour is 16 to the ton (so that I can hit a Raven in the nose with my AC20 and it doesn't just shake its head and wrote it off), etc.. A choice of whether you want to relax and pew pew, or be a bit more cutthroat if that's your thing.


Play longer. Whatever method of playing (for you grouping) that's not matching right you need to play a bunch and it sounds like lose a bunch with your friends so that it lowers your Elo score. The problem is that your team is playing at a level above their skill. It might be you and one of the others who are dragging the average up while the other two are dead weight when you play as a team. If it's bumping you into the range of competitive teams then yeah - you need to have a lower team average or you're going to get hammered.

Elo can and will fix it just that changes in score are slow. Be patient with it and realize that you will eventually settle out at a 50/50 point where it's a solid and enjoyable challenge just about every game.





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