43 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

So stop complaing about it.

HBK-4P

AWE-X -> Nearly the whole series.

CAT-X -> Nearly the whole series.

It is normal to boat things.

Edited by WolvesX, 06 March 2013 - 05:03 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

TWELVE ER Medium Lasers. Nuff said.

[LordDante]

play wang
feel elite

[WolvesX]

LordDante, on 06 March 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

play wang
feel elite

I fact this is one of my fav mechs over 300k XP.

[Demos]

So, you named four mechs out of several thousands to proof that boating is normal?
BTW, a CTF-4X with TWO AC/5 I would not describe as 'boating'.
AWE-X and CAT-X are experimental designs.

The number of real Boating designs like HBK-4P, AWS-8Q, Longbow-0W will be app. at 5-10%

[Voidsinger]

There is a huge difference between boating in Battletech, and boating in MWO.

Weapon Groups.

Unless playing Solaris VII, all Battletech weapons have separate to-hit rolls, so when 8 weapons fire, only 4-5 will usually hit. In MWO, evrything fires at once at the targeting circle or crosshairs.

In Solaris VII, only low heat weapons are boated, usually Machine Guns for that cheap AC/20 feel. Otherwise heat is too high. Having too many weapons on a Target Interlock Circuit is chancy when you miss. It takes time to reassign them too.

[Adridos]

Demos, on 06 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

The number of real Boating designs like HBK-4P, AWS-8Q, Longbow-0W will be app. at 5-10%

And most of them have a big problem/ disadvantage.

4P does too much heat and most of the damage is spread out.
8Q is slow and can't defend itself at small range with anything but a small laser.
Longbow has the smae problem as Awesome.

[Rhent]

Voidsinger, on 06 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

There is a huge difference between boating in Battletech, and boating in MWO.

Weapon Groups.

Unless playing Solaris VII, all Battletech weapons have separate to-hit rolls, so when 8 weapons fire, only 4-5 will usually hit. In MWO, evrything fires at once at the targeting circle or crosshairs.

In Solaris VII, only low heat weapons are boated, usually Machine Guns for that cheap AC/20 feel. Otherwise heat is too high. Having too many weapons on a Target Interlock Circuit is chancy when you miss. It takes time to reassign them too.

Go figure, someone is trying to use table top rules to apply to a First Person Shooter game. Imagine if someone took HALO and turned it into a turn based strategy game and then people came in from playing the FPS version and complained about how the Needler wouldn't work that way in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Rhent, on 06 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Go figure, someone is trying to use table top rules to apply to a First Person Shooter game. Imagine if someone took HALO and turned it into a turn based strategy game and then people came in from playing the FPS version and complained about how the Needler wouldn't work that way in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME.

The OP started the thread with the claim that boating is normal in the BT lore, and by extension in the TT game. Of course the rebuttal is then going to involve the BT lore and the TT game if this claim is not true. What else are they supposed to point to for support of their position if they disagree with the OP's statement? The lore and the TT rulebooks are relevant to this particular discussion as a way of explaining to the OP why boating (what little occurs) in the lore/TT and boating in MWO are two very different things. Maybe you should stop having these knee-jerk reactions whenever someone mentions one of those two things? It's not always irrelevant to every discussion on these forums.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 06 March 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Yeah, I always wonder if this is the first Mechwarrior experience for ppl who complain about boating

[AndyHill]

Boating is normal, but spamming instant pinpoint single-location alphas isn't. And that's often the desired result and one of the reasons behind boating in MW games.

[MustrumRidcully]

Adridos, on 06 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

And most of them have a big problem/ disadvantage.

4P does too much heat and most of the damage is spread out.
8Q is slow and can't defend itself at small range with anything but a small laser.
Longbow has the smae problem as Awesome.

4P actually has no serious heat issues in the table top game. It gains what, 2 heat per turn if it fires all mediums? That's laughable compared to the heat issues a non-boat like the Marauder has (2 PPCs, 2 Mediums, one AC/5, but only 16 heat sinks.... )

And not to forget - Minimum Range doesn't turn a weapon useless or low damage in the Table Top. It just increases the difficulty to hit. And if enemies get too close, the Awesome has a wonderful fist on ints non PPC hand.

AndyHill, on 06 March 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Boating is normal, but spamming instant pinpoint single-location alphas isn't. And that's often the desired result and one of the reasons behind boating in MW games.

Yes, that is more the problem. Even for the Splatapult, in a way, even if it's not exactly "pin-point" precision. Without convergence, you would need to fire at least the arms seperately at the range people fight typically with it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 March 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

WolvesX, on 06 March 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

So stop complaing about it.

HBK-4P

AWE-X -> Nearly the whole series.

CAT-X -> Nearly the whole series.

It is normal to boat things.

None of the mechs you listed are watercraft. I'm so confused.

[Kousagi]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 March 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

4P actually has no serious heat issues in the table top game. It gains what, 2 heat per turn if it fires all mediums? That's laughable compared to the heat issues a non-boat like the Marauder has (2 PPCs, 2 Mediums, one AC/5, but only 16 heat sinks.... )

And not to forget - Minimum Range doesn't turn a weapon useless or low damage in the Table Top. It just increases the difficulty to hit. And if enemies get too close, the Awesome has a wonderful fist on ints non PPC hand.

Most mechs in lore have more weapons then their heat sinks can handle, because they range bracket. They are not meant to fire everything every turn..

edit: grrr, lore says no on min range, rule book says yes...

Edited by Kousagi, 06 March 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[RedDragon]

As always, this is wrong on so many levels...
Boating in BT =/= Boating in MW.

In BT, boating doesn't dumb down the game concept because you don't automatically hit with all your weapons pinpoint and only need to press one button all the time.

In BT, there are not many boat-configs. You named 3 out of hundreds of configs and out of those 3, 2 are experimental mechs and one is a variant that isn't often used. Those boats that exist are mostly specialized designs that have one single role that they are good in and other than that they are at best mediocre designs.
If you want to speak about boats, take the real ones like the Nova Prime. May generate 65 heat with 12 ER-Med Lasers and can only cool 36 in a turn. Or the Warhawk Prime. 4 ER-PPCs which alone generate 60 heat and it can only absorb 40/round.

In BT, boating isn't as effective because of the heat scale. In MWO, the only consequence of running a laser boat is that you will shut down eventually. That is why most people stand on a hill, fire, fire again, shut down, fire again and so on. Great skill and fun gameplay.
If there would be consequences to accumulating heat as there are in BT (getting slower, penalties on aiming, even damage to the pilot) then people would reconsider using 6 PPCs and shutting down again and again.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

While valid, Boating is more for specalized builds.

the problem with boating in general is that, boating turns EVERY build into a specalized build, instead of being a generalist as most mechs are intended to be.

a good example is that, you CAN boat lasers on an atlas, you could easily retrofit an AS7-D with all medium lasers... is it smart to do so? no not really, but it IS possible.

That being said, because of how the game works, generalist builds don't do all that well. I have an AS7-D{F} that I run in a generalist setup, I can get 2-3 kills with it, it has varried range profiles, LRM's, SRM's UAC, large and medium lasers... it's ment to function as backup, to use the LRM's to soften targets, then capatalize with the lasers and UAC5. It does ok, but it doesn't rubble things near as good as 4mlas, 2srm6 AC20...of course that loadout limits me to close in work.

[Royalewithcheese]

RedDragon, on 06 March 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

In MWO, the only consequence of running a laser boat is that you will shut down eventually.

That's a pretty big disadvantage, though. Stuff overheats fast in this game, and any hot build that runs into something it can't alpha down is in serious trouble.

[TheForce]

RobotJocks. PFFFFRTTTT!!

[kiltymonroe]

Nova, Hunchback 4P, Hunchback IIC, Rifleman IIC, Awesome, Warhawk, Annihilator, Fafnir, Bane, Hellstar, Stone Rhino, Piranha, Salamander, Viking, Yeoman...

Don't make me actually flip through TROs.

[Kingdok]

Demos, on 06 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

So, you named four mechs out of several thousands to proof that boating is normal?
BTW, a CTF-4X with TWO AC/5 I would not describe as 'boating'.
AWE-X and CAT-X are experimental designs.

The number of real Boating designs like HBK-4P, AWS-8Q, Longbow-0W will be app. at 5-10%

hate to have to point these things out, but some of us apparently never made it INTO basic algebra -- "X" is often used to symbolize a variable. I'd bet my bolts that OP was referring to the group of Awesome and Catapult variants with the AWE-X and CAT-X reference. Not the experimental X variants.

Dropped with you last night WolvesX, btw... always good to see a name I recognize from the forums in an actual match. Don't know what it says about my Elo, but there it was.

On the issue of boating in TT -- I used to do this all the time. Without hardpoint restrictions and with a healthy disregard for canonical design, my nerd gang would build crazy stuff just to troll each other. (before we had that internet term for this behavior). 100-ton jump mechs with 20 machine or more machine guns... really?? If I shot your mech out from under you before you got within 3 hexes, you were going to the store for more Doritos and Mountain Dew!

Playing with the math on mech builds was at least half the reason I loved TT in the first place. Tech Readouts were like the serving suggestions in the grocery store. Looks good and balanced on the box, but when I cook it up it will probably require extra cheese and bacon...