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Op Cn9-A?


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#21 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

SRM6s are OP though.
...
When a brawler's effectiveness is rated by how many SRM6s it can carry, theres obviously something unbalanced with that weapon. Especially when mechs that can't use SRM6s, like the Dragon, are considered useless because of it.


This is true.

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

They do three times the damage of a medium laser for the same heat.


This isn't why though. That damage/heat ratio is balanced out by weight, ammo, etc. Lasers will always run hotter per point of damage, that's the point. SRMs are brokenly powerful because they are broken, they're producing inflated damage, to the tune of 5-7 times against certain mech models. Once splash damage is out (April 2nd) we'll be in a better situation to assess relative brawler weapons, and I expect the SRM will be fine, although I'm concerned it'll exacerbate the advantage of Streak over Artemis as an SRM upgrade.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 16 March 2013 - 09:15 PM.


#22 Khobai

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

Quote

That damage/heat ratio is balanced out by weight, ammo, etc.


Not really.

SRM6 = 3 tons + 2 tons ammo + 10 tons heatsinks to fire heat neutral = 15 tons 15 damage/3.75 dps
MedLas = 1 ton + 10 tons heatsinks to fire heat neutral = 11 tons for 5 damage/1.25 dps

So right there... you can see the weight/ammo doesnt balance it out at all

#23 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:34 PM

Ppl don't throw on a bunch of heatsinks (above and beyond the engine DHS) so they can put 1-2 Medium Lasers on their robot, tho. And generally speaking ppl run SRMs and Medium Lasers for completely different reasons. One offers relatively heat-efficient close-range damage, the other does respectable damage, weighs 1 ton, and takes up 1 crit slot.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 16 March 2013 - 09:37 PM.


#24 Khobai

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:38 PM

Quote

Ppl don't throw on a bunch of heatsinks (above and beyond the engine DHS) so they can put 1-2 Medium Lasers on their robot, tho. And generally speaking ppl run SRMs and Medium Lasers for completely different reasons. One offers relatively heat-efficient close-range damage, the other does respectable damage, weighs 1 ton, and takes up 1 crit slot.


Obviously. But not throwing on extra heat sinks benefits the SRM6s even more.

Because if youre limited to 20 heat dissipation... are you gonna want a weapon that gives you 15 damage for 4 heat or a weapon that only gives you 5 damage for 4 heat? The SRM6s are blatantly better to the point where I would never even consider choosing a mech with X energy hardpoints over a mech with X missile hardpoints for a brawler. That's why the CN9-A is so much better than say a DRG-1C. Because of the huge disparity between energy and missile hardpoints.

And yes splash damage on missiles is amplifying their damage as much as 400% on top of the already obvious imbalance. So there's that as well.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2013 - 09:50 PM.


#25 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:


Obviously. But not throwing on extra heat sinks benefits the SRM6s even more.


Sure, but it's not like there's a lack of Medium Lasers on robots these days. It's 1 ton and 1 crit slot for a versatile weapon. An SRM6 you can't just throw on a robot - there's the launcher itself, the ammo for the launcher, maybe Artemis. Which is "better?" I have no idea, but I know that most builds with the option to run both do so and more builds in general run Medium Lasers.

EDIT:

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

The SRM6s are blatantly better to the point where I would never even consider choosing a mech with X energy hardpoints over a mech with X missile hardpoints for a brawler.


I'm not sure "primary brawling weapon" is the intended goal of energy weapons - heat is (by design) too high on those things. Their niches are things like secondary weapons and primary long-range weapons. The only weapons heat-efficient enough to be a primary brawling weapon IMO are all ballistics and missiles.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 16 March 2013 - 10:03 PM.


#26 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:


Not really.

SRM6 = 3 tons + 2 tons ammo + 10 tons heatsinks to fire heat neutral = 15 tons 15 damage/3.75 dps
MedLas = 1 ton + 10 tons heatsinks to fire heat neutral = 11 tons for 5 damage/1.25 dps

So right there... you can see the weight/ammo doesnt balance it out at all


You're forgetting the ton for Artemis IV. You're also missing the crit slots required.

There's also the small detail that the MLAS does it's damage to a (admittedly non-instant) point, not as a spread of 2.5 damage missiles. Never mind that it hits the same point as other MLAS when combined on the same reticule. And isn't limited to 270m range, nor does it require target leading (yes, being hitscan is an advantage, and a big one).

Besides which heat neutrality is pretty irrelevant to in-the-wild mech design, really.


SRM-based brawlers are currently popular because they are low-skill-ceiling (hug face and rt-click) builds that benefit from artificial damage inflation. Once that damage inflation is removed, they will be more even with higher skill ceiling builds that direct their damage - in essence if an SRM6 has no splash damage (April 2nd) then it has to hit three locations or less to be as good or better than an aimed MLAS. Where SRMs really do have an advantage is pack hunting, where the spread is mitigated by needing less ToT to kill and the reduced value of single-compartment hits.


Edit: Edited to remove some arseholery, am far too tired.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 16 March 2013 - 10:11 PM.


#27 operator0

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 March 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

CN9-A isnt overpowered.

SRM6s are OP though. They do three times the damage of a medium laser for the same heat. They need a damage nerf. Missile hardpoints are more sought after than energy hardpoints because missile weapons are way better. Thats an imbalance that needs to be corrected.

An example of why SRM6s need a nerf is the CN9-A vs the Dragon. CN9-A does 55 damage and goes 97kph with a std engine. Even with a 10 ton advantage the Dragon can't come close to that level of effectiveness because it lacks the ability to use SRM6s.

When a brawler's effectiveness is rated by how many SRM6s it can carry, theres obviously something unbalanced with that weapon. Especially when mechs that can't use SRM6s, like the Dragon, are considered useless because of it.



The Dragon is not a brawler mech and anyone who tries to make it so is in for a rude surprise. The Dragon is a striker/med range support mech. Also, I love seeing splat cats/splat cents out in the open in the Flame. I just back up at 70kph and let the 4 LL rip. The smart ones turn away from me pretty quick and find a new target when they realize that they wont make it in time to do much damage. Splat cats and splat cents are range limited, something a good Dragon build is not. I fear no SRM build in my Dragon.

#28 Yokaiko

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:48 PM

View Postoperator0, on 16 March 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:



The Dragon is not a brawler mech and anyone who tries to make it so is in for a rude surprise.



A couple of my Dragons brawl just fine. Get a Fang and load it up with an AC20 and 4 mlas, if you don't get caught out doing something stupid it wrecks things.

Its also great for raven swatting.

#29 valkyrie

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostLevi Strauss, on 16 March 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Since everyone on these forums think that everything is OP:

NOTHING IS OP.


(citation needed)

#30 Bashars

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:55 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 16 March 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

I think it's just a good robot - in the grand scheme of things in this game that could be called OP, a medium that doesn't suffer from the "speed weapons armor choose two" problem is not very high up there IMO. CN9-A is probably the best medium, though.

Robot? you need to be kicked in the balls.... they are mechs

#31 KharnZor

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostAlcatraz968, on 16 March 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Did 1400 damage in mine (Cant get a pic to work).

Do they get corrupted? i've been having issues with my screenshots for a while now

Cant wait till the splash damage is fixed tho.

Edited by KharnZor, 16 March 2013 - 11:03 PM.


#32 Volume

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:33 AM

Centurions aren't broken, SRMs are.

#33 Khobai

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

Quote

You're forgetting the ton for Artemis IV. You're also missing the crit slots required.


I dont use artemis. and crit slots are irrelevant on a centurion... you have more than enough crit slots. enough leftover to use both ferrofibrous and endosteel in fact.

Quote

The Dragon is not a brawler mech and anyone who tries to make it so is in for a rude surprise. The Dragon is a striker/med range support mech.


Then why is the dragon always depicted as a brawler? Why is it always ramming other mechs or smashing into them at high speed in various artwork? Surely if it was meant to be a striker/med range support mech like you claim that wouldn't be the case.

The dragon is in fact meant to be a brawler. Thats why it goes so fast, so it can close the distance quickly, get into brawling range, and ram enemy mechs. The dragon just happens to be terrible at brawling in mwo because of its lack of decent missile hardpoints which are currently a requisite for a strong brawler in MWO.

Again the problem is SRM6s... they allow mechs like the Centurion-A, that have a lot of missile hardpoints, to completely outclass heavier mechs that don't have missile hardpoints. The Dragon is one such victim of that.

Edited by Khobai, 17 March 2013 - 01:51 AM.


#34 Commander Kobold

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:36 AM

View PostRoland, on 16 March 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

The Cent 9A is without question one of the strongest medium weight chassis.
But that build is terrible.


I prefer my old hunshie-sp

#35 Dr Killinger

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:18 AM

It's a sad day when we see the venerable Centurion running around, stuffed to the brim with SRMs, and no ballistic weapon in it's arm... I think mid-range ballistics need some help as well.

#36 Commander Kobold

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostDr Killinger, on 17 March 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

It's a sad day when we see the venerable Centurion running around, stuffed to the brim with SRMs, and no ballistic weapon in it's arm... I think mid-range ballistics need some help as well.

the AC isn't the problem, it's how fragile the mediums are compared to everyone else, there's simply no reason to run a medium you're better of with a heavy or a alight (also SRMs are bugged atm)

#37 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostDr Killinger, on 17 March 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

It's a sad day when we see the venerable Centurion running around, stuffed to the brim with SRMs, and no ballistic weapon in it's arm... I think mid-range ballistics need some help as well.


I think it's partly that the ballistics' disadvantages (high tonnage, lots of crit slots) make them require huge sacrifices on anything smaller than a Heavy.

#38 Commander Kobold

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 17 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:


I think it's partly that the ballistics' disadvantages (high tonnage, lots of crit slots) make them require huge sacrifices on anything smaller than a Heavy.


which is why i question the point of the blackjack we're getting eventually.

#39 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostOmni 13, on 17 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:


which is why i question the point of the blackjack we're getting eventually.


Haha yeah. So far the most interesting variant to me is the one with all the SRM launchers - go figure.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 17 March 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#40 Revorn

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostKhobai, on 17 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:


Then why is the dragon always depicted as a brawler? Why is it always ramming other mechs or smashing into them at high speed in various artwork? Surely if it was meant to be a striker/med range support mech like you claim that wouldn't be the case.

The dragon is in fact meant to be a brawler. Thats why it goes so fast, so it can close the distance quickly, get into brawling range, and ram enemy mechs. The dragon just happens to be terrible at brawling in mwo because of its lack of decent missile hardpoints which are currently a requisite for a strong brawler in MWO.


One Word at the Dragon. Just wait till Knockback is back. Then a Dragon will be the moste feared Heavyfor all the Mediums. No SRM6 then saves a Cents Day. I play a Cent for myself and i fear the Day once Knockback is Back.





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