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3Rd Person


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#1 Bryan Ekman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM

Here are the facts.
  • Yes we are currently working on a 3rd person option for MWO.


  • There is no ETA for when 3rd person will be available.


  • Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.
Why add 3rd person?
  • Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.
  • Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.
You will have the following options as a player:
  • Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  • Play against 3rd person players only.
  • Play against 1st person players only.
  • Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.
General Information
  • We have not decided on the final implementation of what third person will look like yet.
  • We are very aware of the design and balancing challenges faced by adding a 3rd person option and will address these through exhaustive private and public testing before pushing any 3rd person features live.
  • It is possible 3rd person will be made available in other regions first. Typically 3rd person is more widely used outside of North America.
  • We understand players may be concerned about matchmaking and further segmenting the player base. So are we. Before going live with a 3rd person option, we plan to investigate and solve any potential issues further fragmentation may cause.
We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.
  • Standard forum rules apply, please be kind, courteous, and clearly communicated your ideas or opinions.
  • This is not the place to say you dislike 3rd person.
When we get closer to launching 3rd person, expect an official Command Chair post detailing our planned 3rd person feature set.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work. These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:
  • Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  • Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  • When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  • 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  • HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  • LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  • ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.
Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

Edited by Paul Inouye, 22 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.
Added mid-thread response to the end of the post.


#2 DCM Zeus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:56 PM

Could we get a poll?


EDIT: Adding why we should not have 3rd person soon. In class currently. :ph34r:

Edited by DCM Zeus, 21 March 2013 - 03:57 PM.


#3 hammerreborn

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

Oh Bryan, are you about to get it

(Not from me though)

Edited by hammerreborn, 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM.


#4 Bryan Ekman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostDCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Could we get a poll?


EDIT: Adding why we should not have 3rd person soon. In class currently. :ph34r:


This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

#5 Daisu Saikoro

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:59 PM

View PostDCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Could we get a poll?


EDIT: Adding why we should not have 3rd person soon. In class currently. :ph34r:


Class > Complaining.

All I need to know is I can choose 3rd person only, and play only with 3rd person players.

Everyone else:

DON'T PANIC


[EDIT]

I do have a question:

"It is possible 3rd person will be made available in other regions first.Typically 3rd person is more widely used outside of North America?"


Where does this statement come from and what does it refer to? Mechwarrior games or gaming in general?

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 21 March 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#6 Sears

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

Sears saw this coming.

Sears suggests limiting it to training grounds first and see if that is enough for new users to realise which way their legs are pointing.

Edited by Sears, 21 March 2013 - 04:02 PM.


#7 DCM Zeus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

View PostBryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:


This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.


Feedback for 3rd person is it should not be implemented, and I just don't know how it could be without major impact on how the game is played.

To me I see 3rd person more of a crutch, just like coolant, this is causing lazyness, and is not punishing the player which is imo keeping the player base from trying to improve their game play.

Edited by DCM Zeus, 21 March 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#8 Lord Banshee

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

From what you've written, it seems like someone in 3PV can dial up a game and face only people in FPV. Seems unfair.
Needs to be rewritten that if you're in FPV, you DEFAULT to facing only FPV combatants, unless you specifically say you want a greater challenge, and further, if you're in TPV, you cannot face FPV combatants unless they agree to.

You're right though, 3rd-Person should be Executed. Not even given a cigarette. Preferably Yakuza-style.

#9 Daisu Saikoro

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

View PostDCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:


Feedback for 3rd person is it should not be implemented, and I just don't know how it could be without major impact on how the game is played.

To me I see 3rd person more of a crutch, just like coolant, this is causing lazyness, and is not punishing the player which is imo keeping the player base from trying to improve their game play.


Did you see where they said not everyone will have to use 3rd person and/or that we'll have a choice.

DCM Zeus, c'mon... there are times and then there are times...

#10 Heeden

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

Totally agree with 3rd person mode for Training Grounds if nothing else.

Also if you ever manage to put new players (i.e. people still earning cadet bonus) into their own pool they could do with 3rd person mode (personally I wouldn't mind facing a trial mech with 3rd person even if I could only have first).

Anything else, I think 3rd person mode should be limited to a few "novelty" game types. Possibly with lower CBill/MC rewards to encourage 1st person to be the "main" mode.

This is based on the assumption that 3rd person is good for training and can be a fun quirk, but 1st person is the way MW is supposed to be played.

#11 Divine Madcat

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostDCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:


Feedback for 3rd person is it should not be implemented, and I just don't know how it could be without major impact on how the game played.

To me I see 3rd person more of a crutch, just like coolant, this is causing lazyness and not causing the player base to try and improve them self.

No doubt my post will be deleted again, but this. PGI, please, we do not WANT this. People in the community are not asking for it (if not the opposite).

1) This will segment the player base - it can already be frustrating finding good matches with the bad Elo implementation, making 3 different queues will only make it worse (made even more sad, by the fact that we NEED these 3 if such a horrible idea is gone forward).

2) While this and other unwanted features are being worked on, NEEDED features like the lobby and CW are languishing. If you want to help the community, focus on voice, lobby and CW..

This will again be deleted, since it is not what PGI wants to hear. So damn frustrating, seeing the game we love being driven into the ground. I just wish PGI would actually LISTEN....... *sigh*.

Edited by Divine Madcat, 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM.


#12 Shumabot

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

Third person is one of those boogeymen that wouldn't actually give a material advantage in MWO except for at the exteme high tiers of competitiveness. At those levels player behavior can be monitored and this game is kinda dysfunctional anyway.

The only problem I see here is the legitimate risk of a divided community when the matchmaker already doesn't have the population to work correctly.

Edited by Shumabot, 21 March 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#13 DCM Zeus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostDaisu Saikoro, on 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:


Did you see where they said not everyone will have to use 3rd person and/or that we'll have a choice.

DCM Zeus, c'mon... there are times and then there are times...


This will cause a major issue with CW, your going to have 3rd player only units trying to play against 1st player only units, this will ONLY cause a split and make CW stale. While this is speculation, it's still something that needs to be looked at.

#14 Bryan Ekman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostHeeden, on 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Totally agree with 3rd person mode for Training Grounds if nothing else. Also if you ever manage to put new players (i.e. people still earning cadet bonus) into their own pool they could do with 3rd person mode (personally I wouldn't mind facing a trial mech with 3rd person even if I could only have first). Anything else, I think 3rd person mode should be limited to a few "novelty" game types. Possibly with lower CBill/MC rewards to encourage 1st person to be the "main" mode. This is based on the assumption that 3rd person is good for training and can be a fun quirk, but 1st person is the way MW is supposed to be played.


We have discussed internally releasing 3rd person via the training grounds first. This would allow the player base to provide useful feedback on the implementation.

#15 Banditman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostBryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

*stuff*

So, one question:
How will this affect Community Warfare? If I'm playing as a "First Person only" player, and I attack a planet held by "Third person" players, how will that work?

There are so many pitfalls to this I can't even comprehend them all. You already acknowledge playerbase segmentation is an issue. Other people are about to point out more of them for you.

Let me say this much. If, during the process of Community Warfare I am forced to play against "Third Person" players, that will be the end of MWO for me. If the division of the playerbase creates a situation where MWO becomes too small, that will be the end of MWO for me.

I began participating here on the basis of what was written in the Dev Blogs that described the game you wanted to build. It seems that as time passes, those Blogs become less guideposts and more tombstones. I'm still waiting to see Community Warfare - EVE with mechs.

I honestly believe you are creating more problems than you are solving by adding 3rd person. If you want to draw players in, you need competition, real, honest competition. Right now you have Counterstrike with mechs and no ability for the community to create it's own competition. I think that should be your focus.

#16 DCM Zeus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:11 PM

View PostBryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:


We have discussed internally releasing 3rd person via the training grounds first. This would allow the player base to provide useful feedback on the implementation.


Doing this will give you the proper feedback imo.

Honestly keeping it in training grounds is the best option imo.

#17 Alex Novian

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostBryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:


We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.


At dawn, with pistols at 10 paces.

On a more Honest side...
When playing with 3rd person the ability to Lock the 3rd person camera in a given direction with the ability to toggle from 1st to 3rd person. (think of it as a better glance when in 1st person. or much better rear view camera)

Not being able to zoom away from the Mech more than at max 20 meters. Thus giving you a plenty wide field of view and allowing you to see your paintjob get blown to bits.

as for the floating target reticle... Make it only visible withing a given angle of view while in 3rd. Move your camera to far from center and you'll have it fade out.

#18 Bryan Ekman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostBanditman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, one question: How will this affect Community Warfare? If I'm playing as a "First Person only" player, and I attack a planet held by "Third person" players, how will that work? There are so many pitfalls to this I can't even comprehend them all. You already acknowledge playerbase segmentation is an issue. Other people are about to point out more of them for you. Let me say this much. If, during the process of Community Warfare I am forced to play against "Third Person" players, that will be the end of MWO for me. If the division of the playerbase creates a situation where MWO becomes too small, that will be the end of MWO for me. I began participating here on the basis of what was written in the Dev Blogs that described the game you wanted to build. It seems that as time passes, those Blogs become less guideposts and more tombstones. I'm still waiting to see Community Warfare - EVE with mechs. I honestly believe you are creating more problems than you are solving by adding 3rd person. If you want to draw players in, you need competition, real, honest competition. Right now you have Counterstrike with mechs and no ability for the community to create it's own competition. I think that should be your focus.


This is a great observation and something we will definitely need to address. More of this kind of feedback is greatly welcomed.

#19 ShadowVFX

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:13 PM

As long as the option exists to have the players ONLY play against whichever group they want to, I'm OK with this. I have no idea what the number of players in MWO are, so I cannot comment on how segmenting the player base will affect gameplay. I assume there are enough players to allow this without too much detriment to the average player. Also, I imagine that 2/3 of the current player base would probably prefer to stick with 1st person (a total guess) and most 3rd person players will be the newcomers which, in theory, should only add to the existing player base.

One final thought: I would prefer it to lock you into either 1P or 3P perspective for the entire game. No on-the-fly view switching to exploit the typical 3P benefits.

#20 DCM Zeus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostBanditman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, one question:
How will this affect Community Warfare? If I'm playing as a "First Person only" player, and I attack a planet held by "Third person" players, how will that work?

There are so many pitfalls to this I can't even comprehend them all. You already acknowledge playerbase segmentation is an issue. Other people are about to point out more of them for you.

Let me say this much. If, during the process of Community Warfare I am forced to play against "Third Person" players, that will be the end of MWO for me. If the division of the playerbase creates a situation where MWO becomes too small, that will be the end of MWO for me.

I began participating here on the basis of what was written in the Dev Blogs that described the game you wanted to build. It seems that as time passes, those Blogs become less guideposts and more tombstones. I'm still waiting to see Community Warfare - EVE with mechs.

I honestly believe you are creating more problems than you are solving by adding 3rd person. If you want to draw players in, you need competition, real, honest competition. Right now you have Counterstrike with mechs and no ability for the community to create it's own competition. I think that should be your focus.


I am relaying this as it speaks truth.

CW will be a major problem with 3rd person only Units wanting to attack 1st person and viceversa.

It is recommend by the community you guys just drop 3rd person all together.

Edited by DCM Zeus, 21 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.






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