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The Dragon..is it lacking some firepower?


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#1 Ethicus

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 05:59 AM

Maybe im just bieng critical. maybe im just being B****y. Maybe i just dont know enough about it to agree with its standard load out. Either way...the Dragon seems to be lacking A LOT of firepower.. i don't see what makes its weapon load out sutable for it being in the heavy class

Just comparing it to the Cataphract, i don't see why someone would want the Dragon instead? please someone explain this to me.

Yes i know its faster, but the Cataphract still moves a decent speed to the point that i can effectively maneuver the battlefield.

Even the Catapult. Its an LRM boat, but still has 4medium lasers, compared to the Dragon's 2.

The canon version just doesnt cut it. For me that is. Don't rip my head off if i dont understand it please :)

#2 William Knight

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

it has more armour.

#3 BoxOfAids

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

I totally agree, even the Grand Dragon variant (which I would probably lean towards) seems to be really lacking, hopefully the devs find a way to balance its mediocrity somehow!

Even the Centurion boasts more firepower than the default Dragon loadout, and the Centurion is 10 tons lighter and a class lower! Granted, the Dragon is about 30% faster and 15-20% more armored, but that armor bonus is to be expected of it being heavier. You would expect more armor AND more weapons, but instead you get armor and a moderate speed upgrade at the cost of weapons!

Edited by boxofaids, 01 June 2012 - 06:15 AM.


#4 Tremor

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

The Dragon is not lacking firepower.Take a look for yourself.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cataphract
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Centurion

The Dragon and Cataphract have a ten ton difference. The Dragon is smaller, faster, and more manuverable.

Edit: I think what you are all missing, is the fact that the Dragon beats all of those 'mechs speeds by an average of 20kph.
For it's size and arament, it's speed is discusting.
And as far as comparing it to the Centurion, it is also slightly better armored, if I remember correctly.

Edited by Tremor, 01 June 2012 - 06:18 AM.


#5 RangerRob

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:18 AM

Welcome to the joys of a 60 Ton Battlemech.

On the tabletop, really didn't find a 60 tonner that I liked until the late 3060's.

It is the case that all the lowest tonnage mechs in a given weight class seem to suffer, although the 60 tonners do tend to seem to be at more of an disadvantage than the 20's, 40's or 80's...at least in my experience.

#6 Adridos

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:21 AM

It's an oversized medium. 5th fastest of all the mechs we have, but with lots of armor. :)

#7 FaustianQ

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:31 AM

Upgrade to endo-steel, change LRM-10 to SRM-6, Change AC/5 to LBX-10, add 1.5 tons of armor and a small laser. Extremely fast brawler for 60t, great medium killer as well.

Other configurations are possible and for the most part it's a 10t heavier Centurion with the potential for more firepower. Only the stock Dragon is bad.

EDIT - As Adridos said, it's an overweight medium.

Edited by FaustianQ, 01 June 2012 - 06:32 AM.


#8 Toothman

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:35 AM

The power to weight curve of engines is what makes the dragon such a light hitter. You have to make a choice of speed and hit like a little girl or go with a smaller engine and hit harder but lumber like the other heavies. Personally I excel at lumbering so I'd probably choose another chassis.

#9 Quentin Yatoki

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:39 AM

View PostFaustianQ, on 01 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Upgrade to endo-steel, change LRM-10 to SRM-6, Change AC/5 to LBX-10, add 1.5 tons of armor and a small laser. Extremely fast brawler for 60t, great medium killer as well.

Other configurations are possible and for the most part it's a 10t heavier Centurion with the potential for more firepower. Only the stock Dragon is bad.

EDIT - As Adridos said, it's an overweight medium.


I may try that out. That sounds fun. But yes, it's an overweight medium...really the only medium we currently have battlefield role wise. Centurion and Hunchback are baby assaults, and Cicada is just silly.

#10 Sparks Murphey

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:41 AM

View PostAdridos, on 01 June 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

It's an oversized medium. 5th fastest of all the mechs we have, but with lots of armor. :)


For that matter, it's the fastest mech bigger than the Cicada, thus far. The Dragon is more about hit-and-run warfare, while the Centurion is a surprising slow and well armed medium.

I'm more surprised that they chose two slow and heavily armed mediums (and then the crazy fast Cicada for a third) without making a mid-speed medium in the game.

#11 Pale Horseman

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:25 AM

View PostTremor, on 01 June 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Edit: I think what you are all missing, is the fact that the Dragon beats all of those 'mechs speeds by an average of 20kph.
For it's size and arament, it's speed is discusting.


This person knows what he is talking about. If you go by TT construction rules 60 ton Mechs have the most discretionary weight (total weight less engine, gyro, cockpit and internal structure) available using standard fusion engines and moving at 5/8.

It has 29 tons available for weapons, armour and heatsinks, which is 1 more ton than a Catapult with a standard engine going at 5/8 and 2.5 more than a Centurion with a standard engine going at 5/8.
(Endo doesn't change it much, the Dragon will then have 32 tons available, the Catapult 31 tons, and the Centurion 29 tons)

So I say flip the question around, if you want to have a mech which moves at 86km/h, and don't like the risk of using an XL engine, (and don't mind not having jumpjets,) the Dragon lets you bring more equipment to battle than any other Mech available.

Of course this is with the caveat that you can actually mount your favoured config onto the Dragon's hardpoints.

Edit: Grammar

Edited by Pale Horseman, 01 June 2012 - 07:37 AM.


#12 Tadakuma

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:05 AM

The Dragon is a fine mech, but it's actual battlefield role is closer to that of a medium mech then a classic heavy. I

It's a workhorse mech and as a workhorse mech it is excellent. Decent armour, excellent speed and a good ammo supply means that this is a mech that can stay in the field for extended periods and be were you need it. The firepower may seem anaemic but when combined with the speed to dictate the engagement it is an effective mech.

I also like the Dragon because it is a mech that has strategic implications and opens up the possibility of smart play being a component of the game.

Based on the current mech roster, it is the mech I'm most likely to play on release. (I would have said the Centurion but it is the one redesign that I'm not fond of, it looks a liitle to much like a Michael Bay transformer)

#13 KitK

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:13 AM

The Dragon's speed is a key design choice which puts a premium on movement and fits into a partiuclar tactcal approach. I believe hit and run was mentioned already. This doesn't make a bit of sense in MW, so far, because we are too used to the toe-to-toe circle of death approach to fighting. I'm sure BT lore has Dragons dualing, but writing and actually rolling the dice are two different things. So, if one can actually make good use of a hit and run tactic in MWO, the Dragon may actually shine.

The next problem with the Dragon is its choice of an AC5, which is perhaps the least liked weapon in all of BT for some very good reasons. The Grand Dragon's PPC is simply a necessary change to make the Dragon effective. However, for what it's worth, the Dragon with the AC5 is very heat efficient, even at alpha-strike range (a feature which is lost with the Grand Dragon). And it has enough ammo to fight for quite a long time.

Still, it is a lack luster design considering it is supposed to represent the strength and power of the Combine as its totem mech. Thus, it frequently served as a commander's mech. And I have little doubt that the Kurita mindset would be one of pride to pilot the symbol of the realm, even if that cut the firepower a bit. And hey who cares about firepower if your a Kurita, who believes all others are inferior anyway. So, the mech fits a role play aspect as well.

Let's see now, that's 3 things that the Dragon is trying to do - speed, low heat, role play. There's a good chance the Dragon is what it is because it's trying to accomplish too many things at once.

#14 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:28 AM

Dragon is the main work horse of the DCMS and needs to perform a variety of roles. Hence it's splash of all ranges.

#15 Alizabeth Aijou

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:38 AM

Quote

Upgrade to endo-steel, change LRM-10 to SRM-6, Change AC/5 to LBX-10, add 1.5 tons of armor and a small laser. Extremely fast brawler for 60t, great medium killer as well.

Or, even better, upgrade to XL engine, change AC/5 to PPC. :(
Oh, and various other random upgrades, speed, armour, whatever.

Yeah, the regular DRG-1N is rubbish.
The DRG-1G on the other hand is pwny.

Quote

It has 29 tons available for weapons, armour and heatsinks, which is 1 more ton than a Catapult with a standard engine going at 5/8 and 2.5 more than a Centurion with a standard engine going at 5/8.
(Endo doesn't change it much, the Dragon will then have 32 tons available, the Catapult 31 tons, and the Centurion 29 tons)

Cataphract going 5/8/0 will have only 26.5 tons available for weapons, armour, equipment, etc.
And only tops the Dragon when using an XL engine.
Using with XL and Endo gives a difference of only 3 tons for the cataphract's advantage.
So much for being 10 tons heavier.

Also, I was under the impression that endo-steel wasn't available as a 'Mechlab upgrade.
So upgrading a DRG-1N Dragon with an XL engine (and DHS, of course), I could get...
DRG-1N-Mod: 5/8/0, 11 tons ferro-fibrous, 13 DHS, 2PPC, 2ML, 1SRM-6, BAP, GECM, CASE, C3Slave.

Assuming, of course, that they'd let me do so. :P
But yeah, I'd be able to run fast and fire both PPCs with no excess heat.

#16 KitK

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:41 AM

View PostPANZERBUNNY, on 01 June 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Dragon is the main work horse of the DCMS and needs to perform a variety of roles. Hence it's splash of all ranges.


In BT lore, yes, absolutely. But in practice I am not so sure. It strikes me more as a "Jack of all trades but master of none."

#17 Ganthrinor

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:22 AM

1x AC/5
1x LRM-10
2x Medium Laser
10 Tons of Starshield Armor
60 tons total Mass
86 Km/h speed

The Dragon is a long range sniper heavy with the speed to dictate the distance of encounters it wants and the armor to take a beating if the pilot forgets what he should be doing and tries to knife fight with lasers.

The Grand Dragon Variant replaces the AC/5 with a PPC and adds a third medium laser

This Mech is fantastic at what it does and is more than capable of sticking it out for the long haul. If you want high Alpha Strike one-shot wonders, this is not the Mech for you.

#18 Paladin Brewer

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:38 PM

In MPBT: Solaris a Dragon-1C (with an AC/2) could take down a lance of mechs if he was good. Granted however, in MPBT: Solaris the terrain was very flat and mechs weren't too hard to head with an AC/2 and LRM. Staying back in range and popping off heads was easy, albeit, a bit fun. ;)

#19 Dovoid

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:52 PM

As stated the dragon is perfect for hit and run or sniping and had decent armour if forced into a head to head fight.

#20 Soviet Alex

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:24 PM

I'd have to agree that the stock Dragon variants look a bit weak compared to a Centurion or Hunchback. And plenty of people before me have pointed out the speed & armour advantages it has over both of them, and the other heavies to boot. Here's another angle: being a jack-of-all-roles kind of mech, it has a broad range of hardpoints. Ballistic RA, Missile CT, Energy LT, Energy LA. There's a lot of Mech-Lab potential right there. A Dragon-1N chassis can mount an AC10 + 2t ammo & SRM-4 + 1t ammo instead of the AC5 & LRM-10. One fast, heavily armoured flanker & scout-killer. I'm sure we can come up with other build options between now & launch.





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