60 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

Inner Sphere all the way. I'll take spoiled nobles who's power ultimately rests upon the support of the people over a military dictatorship that enslaves 90% of their own population.

NagaoftheWards, on 02 June 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I am a staunch Warden, I believe it was in the clans best interest to just keep expanding the homeworlds and leave the sphere well alone. Kerensky left the sphere alone for a reason and I solely believe it was to keep his faithful away from the corruption and factionalism that shattered the great star league and fond memories of the golden century. We should have kept an eye on them but maintain our distance, It was the crusaders need for glory over them that shattered our ways, left us wounded and weak.

Ah yes escape the evil Inner Sphere with its factions and infighting, as long as the Clans stay away they will never have any infighting and factionalism or anything bad... oh wait that didn't happen either. Fierce inter-Clan hatreds and factionalism, Clans annihilated and absorbed, corrupt government that rules through force and enslaves all non-Warriors. Yep staying away from the IS worked so well for the Clans, at least after the invasion the Clans can learn how much more freedom and more enlightened society can be.

Semyon Drakon, on 02 June 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

I would love to be able to change the Clans attack vector. I'd personally assault through the FWL/Capcom border area. Then you avoid Davion and Steiner regular units and mercenraies. FWL and CAPCOM units, even House units wouldn't stand a chance and whatever mercs they had on hand, save possible the MAC would be little more than a speed hump.

We'd be on Terra inside a year then worry about the rest of the Inner Sphere.

Semyon

Wow I've never been impressed with the military acumen of the Clans or their players but you sir take the cake. You want the Clans to place their source of supplies and reserve forces on the other side of the Inner Sphere, so that it takes years to transport everything all the way around the Periphery to your staging grounds on the "southern" edge of the IS. Not to mention you would have to scout a safe passage all the way around (gets pretty sparse around the edges of the Periphery in terms of jump points), before you could even begin staging. Then with such a long and circuitousness supply chain you want to launch an attack against the nation that has the most experience fighting of superior forces out of any in the IS (don't like Cappellans, but I have to admire their ability to fight off overwhelming odds), and potentially fight the most intelligent, best organized and best equipped military in the IS (Suns). Yeah you do that.

Just like in the actual invasion you'd spread yourselves so thin you'd have to stop for years to shift more forces from the homeworlds, increase or create supply lines and eventually have to stop and create your own factories as the ones in the Homeworlds become to far away to effectively keep your military running. Honestly you'd probably have to do all this within the first year of the invasion, unless you created a new set of Clan colonies down to the south of the IS.

Draelren, on 04 June 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

What do you mean that they couldn't have taken the IS? If they had gotten rid of the bidding system, and used every clan... the IS would have been wiped off the map.

Only a small portion of each invading clan ever saw battle. Not to mention there was only a few original invaders, and then more joined in the 2nd wave. Did you ever look at how small the invasion was in comparison to how many mechs and warriors the clans truly had at their disposal?

Except the Clans can't get rid of bidding, at least not easily. The bidding, "honor" and all those other things are too deeply ingrained in the Clan warrior to simple throw away because it's stupid when you're actually fighting a real war. Not to mention even if the entire Military strength of the Clans invaded, they would've run out of supplies that much faster and stalled out the invasion even sooner.

Your supply chain is more important than the number of soldiers and their quality. There's a reason they say "an army marches on its stomach" and people always quip about how the great generals study logistics.

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

LAWL. Is that why the IS was getting ripped to shreds until Tyra made her suicide run? back up that statement. Please. I dare you. I double dare you.

Logistics, the Clans were already running out of steam (except for Clan Wolf) when Tyra crashed her fighter and killed the IlKhan.

Honestly the Clans have no understanding of war. Logistics, how you supply your armies is more important than how well equipped, large, skilled and "honorable" your forces are. That's why the Inner Sphere would never be entirely conquered, the Clans might take most or all of the Combine and Commonwealth, but they would run out of momentum as their logistics and supply train broke down. Only Clan Wolf really understood this and that is why they had some of the largest gains and did better than all the other invading Clans. Tyra only sped the inevitable halt up with her suicide crash, the Clans would've been forced to stop by their own lack of logistics anyway.

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Fact: The Clans torn the IS a new one.
Fact: The Clans halted their invasion not because of some new strategy or battlemech or alliance or tech, but because a brave woman who was protecting her superiors, got her fighter shot to **** & decided to go out in a blaze of glory. That year off gave the IS time to recuperate, rearm & resupply. It also gave the Dragoons a chance to foster alliances with almost the entire IS & provide them with new battlemech designs, tech, strategies & training to repel the Clans. Gimme a break.

If protocol did not dictate that they had to stop what they were doing, pull their front line troops off the field, fly all thje way back to Strana Mechty to cast a vote, the IS would be signing a different song. It was bureaucracy that stopped the Clans.

You ignore the fact that logistics was involved. Only Clan Wolf had ensured enough of a build up to keep the pressure on, the other Clans were already slowing down and running out of forces to garrison the captured worlds. Not to mention the supply lines of all but Clan Wolf were being stretched to the breaking point. That year off was as much about resupplying as it was about electing a new IlKhan.

[BOTA 49]

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Fact: The Clans torn the IS a new one.

Indeed, with their initial entrance and surprise they DID tear the IS a new one. Then the IS turned around and returned the favor 10 fold.

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Fact: The Clans halted their invasion not because of some new strategy or battlemech or alliance or tech, but because a brave woman who was protecting her superiors, got her fighter shot to **** & decided to go out in a blaze of glory. That year off gave the IS time to recuperate, rearm & resupply. It also gave the Dragoons a chance to foster alliances with almost the entire IS & provide them with new battlemech designs, tech, strategies & training to repel the Clans. Gimme a break.

Their invasion came to a screeching halt partly because of their personal rules and partly because logistically they just could not keep up the kind of pressure on the IS that they had when starting. Take a look at the invasion map again, and see how everything narrows down towards Tera. There's no effort to surround it and claim it, instead it was a mad dash and they ran out of fuel. Russia beat Germany due to sheer numbers, and the exact same thing would have happened to the Clans if they would have continued their assault.

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

If protocol did not dictate that they had to stop what they were doing, pull their front line troops off the field, fly all thje way back to Strana Mechty to cast a vote, the IS would be signing a different song. It was bureaucracy that stopped the Clans.

Only partially. Besides, that doesn't negate the fact that the Clans lost, never claimed Tera, and lost their way of life after interacting with the IS. You may want the Clans to be the ultimate badass, but the lore paints an entirely different picture. Sucks, doesn't it?

Edited by BOTA 49, 04 June 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Jaroth Winson]

Kartr, on 04 June 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

You ignore the fact that logistics was involved. Only Clan Wolf had ensured enough of a build up to keep the pressure on, the other Clans were already slowing down and running out of forces to garrison the captured worlds. Not to mention the supply lines of all but Clan Wolf were being stretched to the breaking point. That year off was as much about resupplying as it was about electing a new IlKhan.

I do not ignore that fact but the thing is, even with the short sightedness of the Jaguars, Falcons & Bears in terms of supplies, they cut a huge chunk out of the IS territories & held that chunk. Forgetting the Wolves & focusing on those three Clans, while they would be waiting for supplies you have to take into account they won almost all of their battles & even when trying to recover lost ground, the IS were not able to dislodge them from their newly claimed terriroty.

BOTA 49, on 04 June 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Only partially. Besides, that doesn't negate the fact that the Clans lost, never claimed Tera, and lost their way of life after interacting with the IS. You may want the Clans to be the ultimate badass, but the lore paints an entirely different picture. Sucks, doesn't it?

Right but the point am I making is, if there was no halt to elect a new ilKhan, there most likey would not have been a need for Tukayyid. The year off gives the IS the chance to raise their game (not taking that away from them at all). Remember the IS had no knowledge of the Exodus Road at this point. I am at work right now so I cannot show you what I am basing this on. When I get home, I will give it to you step by step.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 June 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Kartr]

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

I do not ignore that fact but the thing is, even with the short sightedness of the Jaguars, Falcons & Bears in terms of supplies, they cut a huge chunk out of the IS territories & held that chunk. Forgetting the Wolves & focusing on those three Clans, while they would be waiting for supplies you have to take into account they won almost all of their battles & even when trying to recover lost ground, the IS were not able to dislodge them from their newly claimed terriroty.


Right but the point am I making is, if there was no halt to elect a new ilKhan, there most likey would not have been a need for Tukayyid. The year off gives the IS the chance to raise their game (not taking that away from them at all). Remember the IS had no knowledge of the Exodus Road at this point. I am at work right now so I cannot show you what I am basing this on. When I get home, I will give it to you step by step.

Yes they carved out a chunk of the IS and then they had to STOP because they had reached the end of their supply chain. Considering how long the Exodus road was and where they were bringing supplies from, the IS would have had that year off, regardless of the IlKhan election. Considering that Ulric wanted ComStar enter the fray to help slow down Clan Wolf's rivals he likely still would've tipped off Focht to the ultimate goal, Terra. This means that having been forced to stop due to supply problems the Clans would have wound up fighting Tukyyiad anyway and the IS would still have gotten the year or so off that they got with the IlKhan election.

The point is the Clans own system of ritualized combat ruined them for real warfare. Their warriors are glory hounds who are raised to despise and look down on teamwork and logistics, the science of supplying an army, is the domain of lower castes not true warriors. The Clans were doomed to fail from the start due to their whole outlook. The only reason they did as well as the did was their technology, vastly superior weapons combined with the flexibility of OmniMechs allowed them to overcome their inferior understanding of warfare and achieve surprising gains for such an undisciplined and incompetent military.

Edited by Kartr, 04 June 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[Jaroth Winson]

Finally, someone who I can have a good debate with, who isn't a whiner. Challenge accepted sir/madam. Prepare to defend yourself when I get home. En garde!

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 June 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Kartr]

Jaroth Winson, on 04 June 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Finally, someone who I can have a good debate with, who isn't a whiner. Challenge accepted sir/madam. Prepare to defend yourself when I get home. En garde!

/sigh and me without my books (packed for moving ) oh well.

[Jaroth Winson]

Let it not be said that I attacked a defenseless opponent. I challenge you to a Trial of Possession for supremacy in this conflict of opinion. As the defender, you may select the location (& time ) of the battle. As you are IS I will be free to use all the forces at my disposal.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 05 June 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Ralen Sharr]

a lot of the worlds that the clans were hitting were border worlds, and were likely under-garrisoned for a full on invasion
It's not terribly surprising that the part of the clan wedge that drive into a column of border worlds was primarily clan Wolf, who knew it wouldn't be easy to conquer the 'sphere.

I think the first time one of the capitals of the great houses fell, it would serve as a massive wake up call for the whole inner sphere, a likely trigger (at least temporarily) an alliance to remove the clans. At that point it would turn into a war of attrition, with the IS supply lines a lot closer and they'd have a much stronger economic backbone for throwing **** tons of forces at the invading clans.

Could the clans have taken Terra? possibly
Conquer the entire Inner Sphere? I don't think they could do it. They'd just put themselves right back in Kerensky's place, get destroyed trying to unite the IS or GTFO.

[Thorn Hallis]

I have to say neither and both at the same time.

[Kartr]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Let it not be said that I attacked a defenseless opponent. I challenge you to a Trial of Possession for supremacy in this conflict of opinion. As the defender, you may select the location (& time ) of the battle. As you are IS I will be free to use all the forces at my disposal.

Not sure what you mean, I'm IS afterall, we don't have "Trials" well we do but they involve judges and juries. If you're asking when I will have access to my stuff, probably not till August at the earliest.

[Jaroth Winson]

No worries. Just a little RP. I look forward to a sound debate. I will gladly wait until you have access to your source material.

[domokun]

Crusader.

Kartr, on 04 June 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Inner Sphere all the way. I'll take spoiled nobles who's power ultimately rests upon the support of the people over a military dictatorship that enslaves 90% of their own population.

Are you implying that successor states are something other than military dictatorships? That those aren't as harsh to any dissidents as clans? The only difference is that Inner Sphere bothers to humiliate it's oppressed citizens with show trials. All political entities in BT-universe make North Korea look like paradise in regards to human rights. Citizens of Inner Sphere successor states are brainwashed with ultra-nationalistic propaganda from cradle to grave, first and second succession wars showed how much they care about human life and human rights.

It was warden traitors who did the biggest part in foiling the restoration of Star League.

[Kartr]

domokun, on 06 June 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Crusader.



Are you implying that successor states are something other than military dictatorships? That those aren't as harsh to any dissidents as clans? The only difference is that Inner Sphere bothers to humiliate it's oppressed citizens with show trials. All political entities in BT-universe make North Korea look like paradise in regards to human rights. Citizens of Inner Sphere successor states are brainwashed with ultra-nationalistic propaganda from cradle to grave, first and second succession wars showed how much they care about human life and human rights.

It was warden traitors who did the biggest part in foiling the restoration of Star League.

Some of the Great Houses are military dictatorships, Confederation and Combine to be exact although the Combine is less of a dictatorship and more just Japanese. The FWL is fairly democratic which also seems to be one of their major problems as it tends to leave them weak from lack of a central leadership. The Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns are ruled by nobles, but that doesn't make them a military dictatorship.

Dissidents are treated differently in every nation, but no they're not as badly treated in the Inner Sphere as they are in the Clans. Look at the Isle of Skye, decades of unrest and anti-Davion sentiment and the worst they get is AFFS response during the First rebellion and only 200 killed? The Clans would've rounded every single one of them up and sent them to re-education camps at the first signs of dissent. If you make a comm call to send your kid to a birthday party and the call takes more than 30s Clan Jaguar considers you to be wasting Clan, and they know because they monitor all communications. So yeah the Inner Sphere (at least the non-asian influenced parts) are much better in their behavior of dissidents.

Please explain how the Lyran Commonwealth, the Federated Suns, the Free Rasalhague Republic, and Free Worlds League are worse than North Korea. Most allow local governments at the planetary level do the day to day running of the planet and only really focus on things pertaining to national defense, international trade, and generally the business of maintaining an interstellar nation spanning hundreds of thousands of square light years and millions of cubic light years. The allow people to earn their own money, save their own money, they allow people to retire upon reaching an old age, they don't let you die if replacing you at work is less expensive, and your life expectancy is pretty good.

Again it depends on which nation you're talking about, and all nations even modern ones have patriotic and nationalistic "propaganda," look at Great Britain and the Queesn's Diamond Jubilee. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic and believing that your nation is the best one to live in.

Ah yes the First and Second Succession Wars, because the Clan Invasion wasn't just as devastating and the Clans more barbaric when they invaded (Turtle Bay anyone?). No the Inner Sphere isn't perfect and the Houses do have their flaws, but most citizens enjoy freedom, upwards and lateral mobility, are treated as human beings (rather than untermensch like in the Clans), don't have to worry about oppressive state surveillance (CapCon and Combine being obvious places where they do), and can actually retire at a ripe old age. If modern Earth was a part of the Lyran Commonwealth or Federated Suns and was positioned away from the borders we probably wouldn't experience much of a different life. Same if our Earth was part of the FWL, except that our governments would have to decide on representatives to the Parliament.

So yes the Inner Sphere is a much better place than the Clans and unless you're in the Combine or Confederation, wouldn't be to different from living on today's earth in terms of freedom and prosperity.

[Jaroth Winson]

Kartr, on 06 June 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Some of the Great Houses are military dictatorships, Confederation and Combine to be exact although the Combine is less of a dictatorship and more just Japanese.

Not exactly sure what you mean there. The Coordinator has absolute control. He answers to noone. In the Clans, even the ilKhan is subject to the rule of the Grand Council & one ilKhan in the past has been impeached & executed for dishonorable actions. Would this happen to Takashi Kurita? I think not.

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The FWL is fairly democratic which also seems to be one of their major problems as it tends to leave them weak from lack of a central leadership. The Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns are ruled by nobles, but that doesn't make them a military dictatorship.

True but even with the warrior caste holding the main power, they are still kept in check by their respective Clan Councils. There is oversight. True some are more liberal than others & some are more extreme than others but there is oversight nonetheless & as mentioned above, not even an ilKhan can just do what he/she wants without consequences.

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Dissidents are treated differently in every nation, but no they're not as badly treated in the Inner Sphere as they are in the Clans. Look at the Isle of Skye, decades of unrest and anti-Davion sentiment and the worst they get is AFFS response during the First rebellion and only 200 killed? The Clans would've rounded every single one of them up and sent them to re-education camps at the first signs of dissent. If you make a comm call to send your kid to a birthday party and the call takes more than 30s Clan Jaguar considers you to be wasting Clan, and they know because they monitor all communications. So yeah the Inner Sphere (at least the non-asian influenced parts) are much better in their behavior of dissidents.

Come now, we both know the Jaguars are the most extreme of Clans & as youstated yourself, dissidents are treated differently in every nation, so to for every Clan. As for monitoring all communication do you mean like how ComStar has a stranglehold on comms in the IS & dictates to the IS the use of HPGs?

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Please explain how the Lyran Commonwealth, the Federated Suns, the Free Rasalhague Republic, and Free Worlds League are worse than North Korea. Most allow local governments at the planetary level do the day to day running of the planet and only really focus on things pertaining to national defense, international trade, and generally the business of maintaining an interstellar nation spanning hundreds of thousands of square light years and millions of cubic light years. The allow people to earn their own money, save their own money, they allow people to retire upon reaching an old age, they don't let you die if replacing you at work is less expensive, and your life expectancy is pretty good.

Comparing a fictional state to a real one never works out so I will take your side here as opposed to the person you were replying to.

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Ah yes the First and Second Succession Wars, because the Clan Invasion wasn't just as devastating and the Clans more barbaric when they invaded (Turtle Bay anyone?). No the Inner Sphere isn't perfect and the Houses do have their flaws, but most citizens enjoy freedom, upwards and lateral mobility, are treated as human beings (rather than untermensch like in the Clans), don't have to worry about oppressive state surveillance (CapCon and Combine being obvious places where they do), and can actually retire at a ripe old age. If modern Earth was a part of the Lyran Commonwealth or Federated Suns and was positioned away from the borders we probably wouldn't experience much of a different life. Same if our Earth was part of the FWL, except that our governments would have to decide on representatives to the Parliament.

*wags fingers* uh uh Mr. Inner Sphere. Try FOUR Succession Wars + FedCom Civil War in which war was fought the IS way as opposed to the Clan invasion which was ONE campaign where the warriors were fighting in a way that minimized damage to infrastructure & non-comabt personnel. I see your Turtle Bay & raise you a Kentares Massacre.

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So yes the Inner Sphere is a much better place than the Clans and unless you're in the Combine or Confederation, wouldn't be to different from living on today's earth in terms of freedom and prosperity.

I have to disagree. However the Inner Sphere WILL be a better place when the Clans take over.

[Carl Wrede]

I prefer the dead kind of clan

[Kid Weeb]

A Warden from Clan Wolf. We hold the ideals of Aleksandr Kerensky closest of all the Clans. A short background of the Clans in my own words:

The exodus of the majority of the Star League Defense Force, led by General Aleksandr, was done to protect the Inner Sphere from itself. The second exodus, led by Nicholas Kerensky, was done to protect the loyal supporters of his father's dreams from the growing corruption and danger of the ever growing Inner Sphere-like leanings of the Pentagon Worlds. Nicholas formed the Clans from the best of the Warriors that travelled with him. Then, Nicholas led his newly formed fighting forces to successfully liberate the Pentagon Worlds. Nicholas' goal for his new found society was to return to the Inner Sphere and reestablish the Star League. The Warden Clans were convinced that Nicholas did not want to invade and destroy the Great Houses in order to return to reclaim Terra. The Wardens took this from a quote by Nicholas, "to ward the Inner Sphere from all outside forces until that time when the Star League is reborn." They saw the Clans as an outside force so their duty was to protect the Inner Sphere from the Clans themselves.

The Clan invasion and the success of Clan Wolf in it were fueled by the guidance of the Wolf Khan, Ulric Kerensky. His ideas was that if Clan Wolf succeeded in the taking of Terra, the Star League could be reborn with the Clans and the Great Houses with a minimum of loss of life. He believed that if a Crusader Clan conquered Terra, the invasion would continue and millions more would die.

The invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Clans was stopped by Comstar at the Battle of Tukayyid. A 15 year truce was agreed upon and the Clans began consolidating their holdings in the Inner Sphere. During this time, the Clans continued fighting Inner Sphere forces above the truce line. There was inter-Clan fighting and the Inner Sphere destroyed Clan Smoke Jaguar. Clans were annihilated and others reborn. A few Clans aided and even joined with the newly formed Republic of the Sphere. The future of the remaining Clans is uncertain but the Wardens of Clan Wolf stand firmly in support of the Inner Sphere. Here I will stand and ward the Inner Sphere against outside forces until my death. Seyla!

[Jaroth Winson]

Kid Weeb, on 06 June 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

A Warden from Clan Wolf. We hold the ideals of Aleksandr Kerensky closest of all the Clans.

No, not by a long shot.

[Aethon]

I wonder if the Clan haters will ever figure out that Clan Smoke Jaguar was the worst thing to ever come out of the Kerensky Cluster, and is nothing like the other Clans. They were the ones who NEVER let freeborn personnel pilot mechs. They were the ones who treated their IS citizens with the most contempt, and generally treated them like cattle. They were the ones who glassed Edo from orbit, killing over a million civilians.

Saying all Clans are like the Smoke Jaguars, or are guilty of their crimes, is like saying that all IS factions are terrible people because there are pirates in the Inner Sphere who practice slavery, human trafficking, and murder without a second thought.

Edited by Aethon, 06 June 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[Demona]

Aethon, on 06 June 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

I wonder if the Clan haters will ever figure out that Clan Smoke Jaguar was the worst thing to ever come out of the Kerensky Cluster, and is nothing like the other Clans. They were the ones who NEVER let freeborn personnel pilot mechs. They were the ones who treated their IS citizens with the most contempt, and generally treated them like cattle. They were the ones who glassed Edo from orbit, killing over a million civilians.

Saying all Clans are like the Smoke Jaguars, or are guilty of their crimes, is like saying that all IS factions are terrible people because there are pirates in the Inner Sphere who practice slavery, human trafficking, and murder without a second thought.

I suppose that depends on how much responsibility you feel the Clans have over one another. Especially as purported remnants of the Star League. If the other Clans can't keep that sort of thing in check, why should we believe they'd be any better as rulers of the IS? Are there any examples of Smoke Jaguar being reigned in by the others? If so, that will credit your argument.

[Jarikan]

Warden
mainly because mechwarrior 3 gave me a deep heatred for clan smoak jaguar