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Why no solid medium mechs?


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#61 LordDeathStrike

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:47 PM

dont let very rare chasis discourage you. the inner sphere has more mechs and warriors in all its worlds then we will ever see people playing mwo, even if we hit warcraft numbers like 10 million players. so we can surely get some rare chasis, if you are willing to spend the c bills or $$ on them that is.

View PostMalkenson, on 02 June 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

From a TT perspective...
I really, really, really miss my Phoenix Hawk...

:(

I am *not* going to make a Hunchback or a Centurion into a P-hawk. Heck, I can not, what with the jump jet rules and how one can place weapons, let alone the unknown cost, C-bill wise, to do so. Even if the rules would allow me to so, why would I? A Centurion & Hunchback have defined roles in Battle Tech, any variant that now suddenly acts like another mech ruins my immersion in the game.

So yeah, I'm not all that impressed with the IS Mediums so far. That classic 55 ton trio, plus the Dervish and my beloved P-hawk, are what I'd also consider true mediums, in that they combine decent armor & firepower & mobility.

With that said, there is *nothing* wrong with the Mediums currently slated for release. They just provide a play style that I'm more often used to seeing in heavy mechs.

well i can admit your favorites arent in yet, and thats a bummer. for the role you would like to use, might i suggest bumping up to a dragon heavy mech or catapult k2, until they add your beloveds? the dragon can go fast, carry decent armor, and fit a nice weapons loadout, as a scout killer roll. the k2 can jump, go decent speed, carry enough armor and weapons to be a jumping scout killer, or harrasser. i know theyld be heavy instead of med, but they are light for heavies. and fill the role you seek.

#62 Thomas Hogarth

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostKasiagora, on 02 June 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Dang. I'm used to hearing this kind of elitism from a Clanner, not a "True tabletop player." :( (prepares for mobs and pitchforks from every type of player we have)

I'm a fan of tabletop too, it's what I grew up on and 55 tonners are the penultimate word in medium mechs. But everything you mentioned are all unseen mechs, and as many people mentioned; I like the ones you mentioned because they can engage at all ranges and move around with survivability, but many feel they just suck at all ranges without enough dedication to any task to accomplish any goal. Which is also a valid point. Those 55 tonners are good for one-on-ones where you don't know what you're facing (which is how I got my start) but in a lance you should have complimenting mechs to cover each task. And this game is aimed at team combat. Besides, if you want a "solid medium mech" pilot the Dragon. Or for that matter the Centurion. How is either of them really that much different from the ubiquitous Shadow Hawk? It's lacking an SRM2 rack in favor of a medium laser which does one more point of damage? Either mech has an LRM10 instead of the weaker LRM5?

The more I think about this, the more I think you're trolling. It's a good troll though. Go back to /tg/ and pat yourself on the back. Have yourself a soda-pop, Golden Boy. Better yet, have yourself a seat, I'll get one for you. Hope you like grape. ;)


Brother, you know the Dragon is a heavy.

"but there's almost no difference between 55 and 60 tons!"

Almost with you there, until we get to armor amount and - more importantly - cost. As a tabletop player, you know that the Dragon costs a significant percentage more to purchase AND maintain.

Also, the Centurion is not 5/8. It's 4/6, which is fine for the Centurion. Furthermore, the classic medium speed bracket is 5/8/x, with the variable x representing some jumping capability. The Dragon, fine 'Mech though it may be, does not jump. The most popular subvariant of the Trebuchet has jump. So does the Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine, and Dervish. Those four 'Mechs make up a dominating percentage of the mediums present in the Inner Sphere.

The comparison is a non-starter.

As to the legality of the unseen, granted. The unseen would be an unwise choice without giving some sort of payment to the IP holders of the unseen images(hint, it's not Harmony Gold). But according to my link above, the reseen are fine. And if the reseen can grant us these classic designs, I have yet to see a compelling reason why they should not.

View PostLordDeathStrike, on 02 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

dont let very rare chasis discourage you. the inner sphere has more mechs and warriors in all its worlds then we will ever see people playing mwo, even if we hit warcraft numbers like 10 million players. so we can surely get some rare chasis, if you are willing to spend the c bills or $$ on them that is.


Incorrect. The total number of 'Mechs in the Inner Sphere is roughly comparable to the number of registered users on this forum.

#63 Togg Bott

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:55 PM

lol... i have only been "slightly"irratated once by some OP or response in these forums. but i'm truely offended that you implied my mech of choice was somehow...subpar. oh and BY the way... the beauty of that lousey Hunchbacks range...by the time you realise he's there, you will be well inside his range, and i hope he legs you.

#64 Ian

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:11 PM

Quote

Actually...you might want to keep up with the times, Read the following please.

http://www.mektek.ne...-r1283#comments

As of August 2011, there's a lot more Unseen than there used to be.

Because of that, if the Devs stick with 3025 TRO 'Mechs, the only 50-55 tonner with 5/8/5 would be the Dervish.


Ah sad days, thanks info.

Quote


no, mwo weapons are not on 10 second timers lol, you smoking meth? and no your mech cant escape by backing off, reverse isnt even half of running speed, its half of walking speed. and only zel less cheap ***** play clans that way. which is why the devs will either force zel game play, or nerf clan tech to same range weapons as IS tech.


You are correct I timed the videos, they are on 5 sec timers, probably the reason for the doubled armor. Reverse is the same as walk speed. Backing off isn't about escaping its about holding your range advantage as long as possible. I've never met another type of Clan player. The Devs are being as true to the TT game as they can and still make a fun game, they won't nerf clan range adv.

Quote

oh and BY the way... the beauty of that lousey Hunchbacks range...by the time you realise he's there, you will be well inside his range, and i hope he legs you.


It would be a strange day not to notice a 50 ton walking tank before he got within 270meters of you.

Edited by Ian, 02 June 2012 - 11:15 PM.


#65 Kasiagora

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:11 PM

To Thomas Hogarth, touche salesman. :(

Really though, I feel that aside from the actual classification of the Dragon as a heavy, the difference is negligible. You could shed a little of that armor for some jump capability no problem. (I never dealt much with actual costs aside from MW2: Mercs. One thing I'd wanted to do all throughout my TT career is to have extended campaigns that actually took costs and financing into account. But hey, it was 1995 or so and I think my friends and I were 12 at the time. Even if we tried it we'd probably have quit to go ride bicycles.)

I would love to see the mechs listed though as their Reseen versions though. There's no problem with the 'on paper' designs of the mechs and whatever skin the DEV team uses to put them in is fine by me. I used to have problems with the looks of the reseen designs, but I'm past that now and would simply be happy to have them in any form.

#66 I_AM_ZUUL

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:13 PM

View PostKasiagora, on 02 June 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Dang. I'm used to hearing this kind of elitism from a Clanner, not a "True tabletop player." :( (prepares for mobs and pitchforks from every type of player we have)

I'm a fan of tabletop too, it's what I grew up on and 55 tonners are the penultimate word in medium mechs. But everything you mentioned are all unseen mechs, and as many people mentioned; I like the ones you mentioned because they can engage at all ranges and move around with survivability, but many feel they just suck at all ranges without enough dedication to any task to accomplish any goal. Which is also a valid point. Those 55 tonners are good for one-on-ones where you don't know what you're facing (which is how I got my start) but in a lance you should have complimenting mechs to cover each task. And this game is aimed at team combat. Besides, if you want a "solid medium mech" pilot the Dragon. Or for that matter the Centurion. How is either of them really that much different from the ubiquitous Shadow Hawk? It's lacking an SRM2 rack in favor of a medium laser which does one more point of damage? Either mech has an LRM10 instead of the weaker LRM5?

The more I think about this, the more I think you're trolling. It's a good troll though. Go back to /tg/ and pat yourself on the back. Have yourself a soda-pop, Golden Boy. Better yet, have yourself a seat, I'll get one for you. Hope you like grape. ;)


I got to the TableTop just as the Clans were, while I had been reading the novels for years before that. So i understand if you do not count me as a "True TableTop Player" since we RUINED the TableTop game. Or at least that my buddies feelings on it(he is 7 yrs older then me so he considers anything past 3031 BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!)

But I was not trying to Troll, just point out something I saw as severely lacking in my favorite weight class to play. I only claim Lyran since they do not have a Skye affliction flag. Though on a whole the Lyrans are barely German, considering they were formed from Scottish/Irish/Pakistani groups into the Commonwealth. The only Griffin variant is a Steiner, so they do use more then the ATLAS RECON LANCE!

I understand that there is a mechlab, I routinely use one for the campaign I run & just got finished updating my GRF-1N to a custom GRF-1S (2large lasers instead of a lrm-10) in the campaign I play in. But as others have said, telling me to "just" soup a Centurion/Hunchback to be a 5/8/5 with balanced armor/firepower is lame & is not really Canon. Changing armor or weapons is one thing, replacing the Most expensive piece of equipment on the mech(+2 million C-Bills of a 5 million C-Bill machine) that can only be performed in a Mech factory is obnoxious!!!

#67 Qin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:17 PM

View Postfrostfly, on 02 June 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:



Now that Chameleon would be a nice mech, its a lot like the Phoenix Hawk, weapons, speed, JJ.
Reminds me of playing the Crescent Hawks Inception.

#68 Easy 8

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:22 PM

I am hoping that one of the options for the Centurion is to upgrade the engine to give it a speed boost; basically a CN9-A to CN9D. then there will be at least the possibility of a moderately fast medium with decent armor and firepower. I'll agree with Gauge and say the idea of a jack-of -all-trades medium is one that is well rounded in all respects. It doesn't have overwhelming firepower, blinding speed or a thick hide...it's just average in all respects. I think the CN9-D kind of fulfills that role. As for the whole "unseen/reseen" crap, if the developers model them to look different from the originals, no one can say anything...so maybe we will get Griffins, Shadow Hawks and Wolverines (also, Harmony Gold, USA DOES NOT have the intellectual property rights to those, just the distribution rights to Robotech:Macross).

#69 I_AM_ZUUL

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostTogg Bott, on 02 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

lol... i have only been "slightly"irratated once by some OP or response in these forums. but i'm truely offended that you implied my mech of choice was somehow...subpar. oh and BY the way... the beauty of that lousey Hunchbacks range...by the time you realise he's there, you will be well inside his range, and i hope he legs you.


That's based strictly on the Math that they are sub-par, my experience has proven the math to be correct. But if you like driving them & can focus on their strengths while minimizing their glaring weaknesses, GREAT!!! My point was why is there two of essentially the same weapon platforms but zero of what most consider the iconic Medium mech platform.

Your correct that with destroyed sensors I could unwittingly wander into your firezone. I would have sustained such an extensive amount of damage by that point a six year old with a BB gun is dangerous to me, so the AC20 is not really needed. A little to much, a little to late.

Nathan

Edited by zuul88, 03 June 2012 - 12:01 AM.


#70 Ian

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:26 PM

Quote

But I was not trying to Troll, just point out something I saw as severely lacking in my favorite weight class to play. I only claim Lyran since they do not have a Skye affliction flag. Though on a whole the Lyrans are barely German, considering they were formed from Scottish/Irish/Pakistani groups into the Commonwealth. The only Griffin variant is a Steiner, so they do use more then the ATLAS RECON LANCE!


Now now, every good Steiner General knows you send the Zeus lance to recon.

#71 trycksh0t

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostThomas Hogarth, on 02 June 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:


Actually, you might want to keep up with the times. That article references how the original art was made reseen for a short period of time. The project phoenix art is still legal.

http://bg.battletech...ic,17454.0.html

If you're going to be snarky, at least do your research to back it up.


I am well aware that the Project Phoenix artwork is legal, however he was NOT referring to the Project Phoenix artwork, he was talking about the announcement Catalyst made back in '08 or '09 where they stated they had secured the rights to use the original artwork again.

Edited by trycksh0t, 02 June 2012 - 11:48 PM.


#72 Ardor

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:35 PM

The funny thing is that you guys keep referencing the UNSEEN the unseen... They're unseen because fasa lost the rights to use the robotech images for their game. Harmony Gold sued them and they disapeered in the early 90's. The record sheets and the "mechs" themselves are still legal it's just the original art that was used with them. They could still be introduced into the game using new art work of the project pheonix artwork since that is originally created artwork and not licesensed artwork that could disapeer again. As for true mediums the hunchback is a true medium. it just can't rush out there likea light. It's a team work kinda mech...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

#73 Hardac

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostFarmer, on 02 June 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

I'd love to see the Crab. I LOVE the 'mech.


That and the Starslayer. mmMMmm.

#74 Thomas Hogarth

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:02 AM

View Posttrycksh0t, on 02 June 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:


I am well aware that the Project Phoenix artwork is legal, however he was NOT referring to the Project Phoenix artwork, he was talking about the announcement Catalyst made back in '08 or '09 where they stated they had secured the rights to use the original artwork again.


You are correct, my apologies.

#75 trycksh0t

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

View PostThomas Hogarth, on 03 June 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:


You are correct, my apologies.


No worries. I'm going to apolgize as well, I came off like a jerk and it was uncalled for.

Ian - I am sorry for the way I addressed you, it was very uncool.

Back on-topic: Starslayer would be awesome, gonna be awhile though (3056 if I'm not mistaken). I'll be happy with an Enforcer and a Dervish in the near future, they will keep me more than entertained until the Enfield shows up.

#76 Cerlin

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:15 AM

I really love the hunchback and the centurion but I agree with the OP that there needs to be more selection of medium. I want to be able to get a bit more speed (15+ kph) and variance. I really hope this happens soon.

#77 Ian

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:25 AM

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Ian - I am sorry for the way I addressed you, it was very uncool.


If there was an insult it went over my head :(

I like the Centurion TT design image wise, I hope the in game version of the artwork has a more Cannon like Cannon. (not Canon lol) Its the only one of the concept arts I didn't really dig.

I also like how the Crab looks and hope that makes it in and still looks cool.

#78 Damocles

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:36 AM

Man I'd really really love to see a Starslayer, but the medium class could do more with a Vindicator or Trebuchet.

#79 Ian

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:02 AM

Treb or Dervish is definitely needed, a Med Lrm support mech. Starslayer is a few years away. But a generalist 55 ton Med with JJ is also really needed. Don't really care which one.

#80 Woodstock

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:49 AM

The STARSLAYER is a mech I could get behind

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starslayer





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