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Omnimechs 101 (Clans)


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#41 Woky

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

I still think clan mechs will behave like the current in game mechs we have, with the alt configs replacing the idea of variants for clanners. That way they get their 3 variant sstem we have, and I think the the hardpoints for each will be based on that particular configurations stock load out. It seems the simplest solution and keeps with the established standard

#42 Accalia

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostWoky, on 15 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I still think clan mechs will behave like the current in game mechs we have, with the alt configs replacing the idea of variants for clanners. That way they get their 3 variant sstem we have, and I think the the hardpoints for each will be based on that particular configurations stock load out. It seems the simplest solution and keeps with the established standard

Honestly, I doubt the clan mechs will even stay clan only. When they are released I would not doubt, in the slightest, that an IS player will be able to get a clan mech.

#43 Hotthedd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:12 AM

View PostWoky, on 15 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I still think clan mechs will behave like the current in game mechs we have, with the alt configs replacing the idea of variants for clanners. That way they get their 3 variant sstem we have, and I think the the hardpoints for each will be based on that particular configurations stock load out. It seems the simplest solution and keeps with the established standard


But an alternate configuration is NOT a different mech, it is the same chassis. Swapping a weapon in an omniport is far cheaper than buying and upgrading an entire mech. Omnimechs need a balancing system, and this is one that is already in place.

#44 Accalia

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostHotthedd, on 16 April 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:


But an alternate configuration is NOT a different mech, it is the same chassis. Swapping a weapon in an omniport is far cheaper than buying and upgrading an entire mech. Omnimechs need a balancing system, and this is one that is already in place.

And what balancing system would they actually need? Considering the vast difference between the TT and MWO, the argument that clan mechs are OP and such is not exactly holding up well to scrutiny when you actually start doing the side by side comparisons and getting the armor values in line with the actual game as it is. In fact, it can be argued that a few are actually comparable, armor wise, to battlemechs now, and many are actually under armored. The actual damage increase comes from things like the clan specific ER weapons and even then it's a toss up when many battlemech players are using AC ballistics.

So, what real balance is needed? The fact there are already variant designs on the omni-mechs, I am starting to seriously doubt the omni-pods will even be used and they will just make the mechs available to all to use, not just the clans. The difference between TT to MWO is too large to even sit there and make the assumption that the clan mechs will even make that big a difference other than providing people with the mech they want.

#45 Erasus Magnus

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 13 April 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Actually, armor for OmniMechs was completely fixed in TT.

"The type, weight, number of points and critical slots (if any) required for an OmniMech’s armor must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in the completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 55)

There it is, straight out of the current BT unit construction rulebook: OmniMechs may not change their armor type (standard vs IS FF vs Clan FF) OR their armor distribution (how many armor points are where) OR the distribution/location of their armor's critical spaces (if there are two FF criticals in the Right Arm, then those two FF criticals must stay in the Right Arm).

Likewise:

"The engine type, rating and placement of its critical slots must be established when designing an OmniMech’s base configuration, and may not be altered in that OmniMech’s completed primary or alternate configurations."
(TechManual, pg. 48)

"The type of internal structure and placement of any critical slots required must be determined upon the design of the base configuration. All complete primary and alternate configurations thereafter must use the same arrangement of internal structure critical slots."
(TechManual, pg. 47)

That was the trade-off: OmniMechs gained the ability to quickly/easily/cheaply change their weapon/equipment loads to suit the terrain and mission, but lost the ability to make significant/substantial structural changes.


if implemented like this in mwo, it will make second line battlemechs ultimately the better choice over OmniMechs for clan pilots.
secondly, there will be vastly more preferred chassis to roll than others. namely those that carry full armor versus the chassis that do not.
so i dont think this will come into being in mwo.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 16 April 2013 - 11:35 AM.


#46 Strum Wealh

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostErasus Magnus, on 16 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

if implemented like this in mwo, it will make second line battlemechs ultimately the better choice over OmniMechs for clan pilots.
secondly, there will be vastly more preferred chassis to roll than others. namely those that carry full armor versus the chassis that do not.
so i dont think this will come into being in mwo.

I don't think the first point would come to pass, in part because the second-line Clan 'Mechs (being standard BattleMechs) would have many of the same disadvantages (and advantages) as IS BattleMechs and in part because the vast majority of the are (IMO) highly unlikely to ever be implemented.

View PostStrum Wealh, on 27 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Not only can I agree with it, but I put forward a variation of that notion some time ago. Posted Image

Among the issues with the previous list is that there are a number of the "IIC 'Mechs" (and non-IIC "second-line" Clan 'Mechs) that would not be available die to certain factors, such as being Unseen (and not having approved Reseen imagery) or not fitting with MWO's timeline, or not having the available variants (as they are generally "standard BattleMechs" rather than OmniMechs).
As for a listing... It's not an issue of being "against variety (and freedom)", but one of acknowleging that 'Mechs must meet certain criteria to even be considered for inclusion in MWO... and those 'Mechs that do not meet one or more of these criteria are unlikely to be considered, much less implemented.

As standard BattleMechs, they would need at least three variants available to unlock the Elite skills/efficiencies (the OmniMechs could do so through requiring/tracking the use of "standard configurations" rather than "custom configurations").
As previously noted, most of the second-line Clan 'Mechs do not get a third standard (not one-off "Hero"/"Villain" build) variant until well into the "future" (FedCom Civil War or WoB J***d era), several never get a third variant, and a fair number are considered Unseen (indicated by blanked-out silhouettes on the Master Unit List) - all of them have something fairly substantial going against their being in-game.

On the second point: only one of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs (namely, the Mad Cat) actually comes with 100% armor, with the nearly half of the rest (7 of the remaining 15) being close enough (94+% of maximum armor) that there is substantially no difference, and the majority of the total (12 of 16) carrying 80% or more of their maximum armor loads.
In fact, only two of the 16 carry less than 70% of their maximum armor load: the 65-ton Loki (61%) and the 20-ton Dasher (55%) - with the former devoting ~43% of its total mass to OmniTech pod space (allowing for massive and flexible armaments) and the latter carries a massive engine (for a base maximum speed of ~162 kph, going to ~216 kph with MASC activated).
And all 16 of them reap the advantages of both being OmniMechs (and the flexibility that brings) and having access to Clan tech (longer firing ranges, lighter weapons and equipment, more-survivable XL engines, and so on).

If armor and internals were locked at their stock values for the OmniMechs (with armor points per ton being doubled for MWO, of course), it seems that the amount of armor carried would be much of a dissuading factor - those that go Clan for a given 'Mech wil do so regardless (and most of them will do so for the Mad Cat and maybe the Daishi anyway, the rest be d***ed), and locking down the armor and internals both fits the canon BT rules and (by design) helps to alleviate some of the "cheesiness" that would result from having completely free reigh with them.
Of course, there would likely be cries of "foul!" from the most egregious of "min-maxers", but that such a system could be implemented is (IMO) both far from unthinkable and ultimately better for the health of the game than not having it.

#47 Hotthedd

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostAccalia, on 16 April 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

And what balancing system would they actually need? Considering the vast difference between the TT and MWO, the argument that clan mechs are OP and such is not exactly holding up well to scrutiny when you actually start doing the side by side comparisons and getting the armor values in line with the actual game as it is. In fact, it can be argued that a few are actually comparable, armor wise, to battlemechs now, and many are actually under armored. The actual damage increase comes from things like the clan specific ER weapons and even then it's a toss up when many battlemech players are using AC ballistics.

So, what real balance is needed? The fact there are already variant designs on the omni-mechs, I am starting to seriously doubt the omni-pods will even be used and they will just make the mechs available to all to use, not just the clans. The difference between TT to MWO is too large to even sit there and make the assumption that the clan mechs will even make that big a difference other than providing people with the mech they want.


And what evidence do we have that the Clan mechs will NOT be more powerful than IS mechs? I am assuming that the clan tech weapons and equipment (2-slot DHS, 7-slot Endo and Ferro, lighter weapons, etc) WILL make the clan tech much more powerful, and therefore will need SOME balance. Neither of us KNOW how the clans will be implemented in MW:O, but I base my "assumption" on the fact that PGI needs to stick to the lore as much as they can while keeping a playable balance. On what basis do you base YOUR assumption?

#48 Accalia

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:01 AM

View PostHotthedd, on 17 April 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:


And what evidence do we have that the Clan mechs will NOT be more powerful than IS mechs? I am assuming that the clan tech weapons and equipment (2-slot DHS, 7-slot Endo and Ferro, lighter weapons, etc) WILL make the clan tech much more powerful, and therefore will need SOME balance. Neither of us KNOW how the clans will be implemented in MW:O, but I base my "assumption" on the fact that PGI needs to stick to the lore as much as they can while keeping a playable balance. On what basis do you base YOUR assumption?

And I base my assumption that PGI has already thrown lore and several rules out of the window with a bazooka. For starters how heat works and is suppose to impact systems at least or how terrain like water would actually provide better cooling but slow a mech down, or the fact that standard battlemechs should actually cost significantly more just to change out components, but we tend to just do that just casually. I am also basing stats on what I can already see, such as the Timber Wolf having only about 2 more armor in the center torso over the Cataphract (that isn't really much) or the fact that unlike the TT, people pinpoint focus alpha shots in precision spots, which is a HUGE difference from the TT as well.

The one big advantage the clan mechs might have in MWO over the battlemechs is speed, but considering even speedy mechs like the 150 KPH lights have been brought more under control with state rewind, I seriously doubt that will play any major role in any battle. Clan mechs will still have to contend with the real OP things, such as ECM in its current state in the game and pin point alphas that certain battlemechs are doing now.

And again, that also seems to ignore the fact that I seriously doubt the clan tech will even be locked off, if it even appears, to just clans because of the unfair uproar that would get called out by players across the board. Oh and the one advantage the omni suite, that clan mechs usually have, yea I don't expect that to actually be omni. Since variants of the clan mechs exist I fully expect we will have to continue to pick through mech variants with set hardpoints just like we do with battlemechs.

Edited by Accalia, 17 April 2013 - 09:34 AM.


#49 Splinters

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:04 AM

The "Omni-lock" makes sense, but where the real difference will be is in the engine lock. If the clans are locked into certain engines that are not interchangable, than the IS mechs will be much closer to clan mechs in terms of overall DPS just because you min/max your IS mech with engine, armor, Endo, FF loadouts whereas if a clan mech has to use the exact engine, the weapons loadouts will be significantly limited not even counting hardpoints.

Omni's can make it so that the hardpoint system is removed and you make something like "omnipoints" that can fit either Ballistic, Energy, or Missile hardpoints. The question really relies on how much customization the clan mechs will be allowed. Using TT as a reference point, the clans may not be as OP as they were in TT/canon just because we swap out IS engines, DHS, and weapons like the clothes on our back.

-S

#50 Interceptor12

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostInappropriate1191, on 14 April 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

As useful and versatile as omnimechs are, I can't help but think that, at the end of the day, they're overrated. In truth, you kit out most IS mechs with clan-tech, they're just as good. The disadvantages are mostly superficial if IS mechs have clan gear. The real problem is gonna lie in the fact that clan ballistics and missiles are better than IS ballistics and missiles in every single way. While IS energy weapons are inferior in everything, except for heat output, at which case, smart clan players might try to get IS lasers, given how the heat system that PGI came up with seems to have been designed by drug-addicted monkeys that were tripping balls on a cocktail of mescaline, coke, and various kinds of pharmaceuticals that can only be legal in Soviet Canuckistan.


LIES!!! A true clan warrior would never stoop to having to use your filthy freebirth technology. Now 1v1 me in your Atlas while I dance around you in my Timber Wolf. (Note: I am not a clansman I just find it fun to talk like them :D )

#51 Hotthedd

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostAccalia, on 17 April 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

And I base my assumption that PGI has already thrown lore and several rules out of the window with a bazooka. For starters how heat works and is suppose to impact systems at least or how terrain like water would actually provide better cooling but slow a mech down, or the fact that standard battlemechs should actually cost significantly more just to change out components, but we tend to just do that just casually. I am also basing stats on what I can already see, such as the Timber Wolf having only about 2 more armor in the center torso over the Cataphract (that isn't really much) or the fact that unlike the TT, people pinpoint focus alpha shots in precision spots, which is a HUGE difference from the TT as well.

The one big advantage the clan mechs might have in MWO over the battlemechs is speed, but considering even speedy mechs like the 150 KPH lights have been brought more under control with state rewind, I seriously doubt that will play any major role in any battle. Clan mechs will still have to contend with the real OP things, such as ECM in its current state in the game and pin point alphas that certain battlemechs are doing now.

And again, that also seems to ignore the fact that I seriously doubt the clan tech will even be locked off, if it even appears, to just clans because of the unfair uproar that would get called out by players across the board. Oh and the one advantage the omni suite, that clan mechs usually have, yea I don't expect that to actually be omni. Since variants of the clan mechs exist I fully expect we will have to continue to pick through mech variants with set hardpoints just like we do with battlemechs.


So, like me, you base your opinion off of conjecture. Many of the things you list (magic convergence, water not acting like water, etc) can be fixed before release. Omnimechs DO NOT HAVE variants. At all. They have alternate configurations. This is a huge difference.

#52 Accalia

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostHotthedd, on 17 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:


So, like me, you base your opinion off of conjecture. Many of the things you list (magic convergence, water not acting like water, etc) can be fixed before release. Omnimechs DO NOT HAVE variants. At all. They have alternate configurations. This is a huge difference.


Uhh, what? An alternate configuration is pretty much textbook of what variant is; IE varying usually slightly from the standard form. And I base my theory on what PGI has already done to mechs in this game. They are wildly different from the standard mechs or how they would operate in the TT versus how they operate in MWO.

And considering it's obvious PGI is not afraid to stray from what it base lore to achieve what they feel is balance, it is not even outside the realm of possibility, and I think highly likely, that clan "omni" mechs will be hardpoint locked just like the standard battlemechs. Considering how many people make a big stink out of the omni-mechs being OP because of how the TT operates, and not even considering how much things will change in the conversion to MWO.

And saying things can be "fixed" before release is a bit wonky since we have a roadmap of what is planned, and they are having a tough time even keeping to that.

Edited by Accalia, 17 April 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#53 FireSlade

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostHotthedd, on 14 April 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Another balancing factor for Omnimechs is already in the game: The pilot skill tree. Because Omnimechs do not have variants, it would be impossible to ever unlock the pilot skills on an omnimech past basic x 1. PGI would not even have to change anything.


They had variants its just that you could swap the pod out with other models. The Timber Wolf for example has 11 main variants plus the Pryde and Bounty Hunter Models totaling 13 canon based variants. Also who wants to bet that the Timber Wolf's hero mech is the Pryde variant?

#54 Dakkaface

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostAccalia, on 17 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Uhh, what? An alternate configuration is pretty much textbook of what variant is; IE varying usually slightly from the standard form. And I base my theory on what PGI has already done to mechs in this game. They are wildly different from the standard mechs or how they would operate in the TT versus how they operate in MWO.


View PostFireSlade, on 17 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

They had variants its just that you could swap the pod out with other models. The Timber Wolf for example has 11 main variants plus the Pryde and Bounty Hunter Models totaling 13 canon based variants. Also who wants to bet that the Timber Wolf's hero mech is the Pryde variant?


Issue of terminology here guys. When they say 'variants' they mean 'production' or 'custom' variants as in things were done on the production level, or special custom jobs that change the way the mechs work - different engine sizes, different hardpoints and internals, etc. The overall chassis is the same but the internals fundamentally change how the the battlemech operates. Omnimechs always have the same engine, same internals, same armor and same number of omni-pod points, so what they have aren't variants, they are alternate configurations of the same mech - all that changes is weapon loadout.

So strictly speaking, there are no omni-mech variants, just alternate configs. However, we do know that doing things like changing engines, internals or armor can be done, the mech just loses it's omni status. I wouldn't be surprised if PGI does make variants of clan mechs - they'll just be non-omnis with set hardpoints like every other mech.

#55 Hotthedd

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostDakkaface, on 17 April 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:




Issue of terminology here guys. When they say 'variants' they mean 'production' or 'custom' variants as in things were done on the production level, or special custom jobs that change the way the mechs work - different engine sizes, different hardpoints and internals, etc. The overall chassis is the same but the internals fundamentally change how the the battlemech operates. Omnimechs always have the same engine, same internals, same armor and same number of omni-pod points, so what they have aren't variants, they are alternate configurations of the same mech - all that changes is weapon loadout.

So strictly speaking, there are no omni-mech variants, just alternate configs. However, we do know that doing things like changing engines, internals or armor can be done, the mech just loses it's omni status. I wouldn't be surprised if PGI does make variants of clan mechs - they'll just be non-omnis with set hardpoints like every other mech.


Thank you. And therefore any mech that remains an Omnimech would have the built in pilot tree restriction.

#56 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

What Dakka said. Furthermore, I will assume Clan mechs, based entirely on conjecture, mind you, will be locked out of IS pilot accounts. Or rather, Inner Sphere pilot characters. Having Alts is not an uncommon thing in games, mind you. We may need to designate our current character as an IS character, and make a new, Clan account if we desired to use Clan tech.

Three significant reasons come to mind that make me assume they will split the tech access, both predicated by another assumption that we will be able to freely modify the engine, armor, and internals of Clan machines:

1) The Inner Sphere, flat out, did not have access to usable Clan Technology for a couple years after the invasion. Tech that was recovered, what little of it that was, was either sent to be studied or was outright incompatible with the Inner Sphere mechs' systems. It would be like trying to run an Apple OS on a Windows based OS. It is doable, with Hackintosh, but that sort of ability is what is being studied in the current time frame. It is in the process of being developed. Otherwise, it simply was not in IS pilots' hands.

2) Clans operate in a system of 5s, whereas the current system only uses the IS 4 scale system. 5 mechs per star, two stars a binary, three stars a trinary, etc. The only reason we have the 4 point system now is because we are using the Inner Sphere mechs, as Inner Sphere pilots, using an appropriate Inner Sphere unit breakdown.

3) If the Clan armor, engine, and internals are going to be unlocked for player purposes, this will free up tonnage for the Clan weapon systems which, alone, confer pretty dramatic advantages in weight savings and, in the case of energy weapons, firepower, which will necessitate some sort of balancing mechanic.

If the above hold, then a natural way to balance it is to allow asymmetric matchups of, perhaps, 10v12. The firepower advantage on a one on one is clearly Clan - and I want to stress that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if countered appropriately in the big picture, but the overall firepower between both sides may be similar, not to mention the armor and numbers advantage being solidly in the IS side of things. Given being down even one pilot is kinda a big deal on capture type games like, oh, CONQUEST AND ASSAULT, this may prove to be a significant weakness to a Clan team's odds.

That, plus even if every clan mech is engaged with every IS mech, at least two IS mechs will be firing entirely on a single Clan machine - one of which is only slightly more durable than an IS mech with an XL engine, and slightly LESS durable than an IS mech with a Standard engine.

A separate account or client may serve to enforce the match makers matchup system. Unless they can roll that functionality into a separate account. Flagged to be matched as clan when logged into it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 April 2013 - 04:59 PM.


#57 Dakkaface

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 17 April 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

What Dakka said. Furthermore, I will assume Clan mechs, based entirely on conjecture, mind you, will be locked out of IS pilot accounts. Or rather, Inner Sphere pilot characters. Having Alts is not an uncommon thing in games, mind you. We may need to designate our current character as an IS character, and make a new, Clan account if we desired to use Clan tech.


While I agree that there is likely to be a queue separation and you won't see both clan and non-Clan mechs on your team in a drop, I doubt they'll force people to make new accounts to use Clan tech. I could see something more like an IS or CL tag on every mech, which puts you into a different matchmaking queue based on the mech you have readied, and giving an error result if a group tries to split tech when doing a group drop.

#58 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

Interesting option, and one I had not considered. That would streamline things a bit, which is nice.

#59 screw ball

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:20 AM

personally i think you should only be allowed to swap out pods

#60 screw ball

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 17 April 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

What Dakka said. Furthermore, I will assume Clan mechs, based entirely on conjecture, mind you, will be locked out of IS pilot accounts. Or rather, Inner Sphere pilot characters. Having Alts is not an uncommon thing in games, mind you. We may need to designate our current character as an IS character, and make a new, Clan account if we desired to use Clan tech.

Three significant reasons come to mind that make me assume they will split the tech access, both predicated by another assumption that we will be able to freely modify the engine, armor, and internals of Clan machines:

1) The Inner Sphere, flat out, did not have access to usable Clan Technology for a couple years after the invasion. Tech that was recovered, what little of it that was, was either sent to be studied or was outright incompatible with the Inner Sphere mechs' systems. It would be like trying to run an Apple OS on a Windows based OS. It is doable, with Hackintosh, but that sort of ability is what is being studied in the current time frame. It is in the process of being developed. Otherwise, it simply was not in IS pilots' hands.

2) Clans operate in a system of 5s, whereas the current system only uses the IS 4 scale system. 5 mechs per star, two stars a binary, three stars a trinary, etc. The only reason we have the 4 point system now is because we are using the Inner Sphere mechs, as Inner Sphere pilots, using an appropriate Inner Sphere unit breakdown.

3) If the Clan armor, engine, and internals are going to be unlocked for player purposes, this will free up tonnage for the Clan weapon systems which, alone, confer pretty dramatic advantages in weight savings and, in the case of energy weapons, firepower, which will necessitate some sort of balancing mechanic.

If the above hold, then a natural way to balance it is to allow asymmetric matchups of, perhaps, 10v12. The firepower advantage on a one on one is clearly Clan - and I want to stress that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if countered appropriately in the big picture, but the overall firepower between both sides may be similar, not to mention the armor and numbers advantage being solidly in the IS side of things. Given being down even one pilot is kinda a big deal on capture type games like, oh, CONQUEST AND ASSAULT, this may prove to be a significant weakness to a Clan team's odds.

That, plus even if every clan mech is engaged with every IS mech, at least two IS mechs will be firing entirely on a single Clan machine - one of which is only slightly more durable than an IS mech with an XL engine, and slightly LESS durable than an IS mech with a Standard engine.

A separate account or client may serve to enforce the match makers matchup system. Unless they can roll that functionality into a separate account. Flagged to be matched as clan when logged into it.


wrong takashi kurita won 4 mechs and 12 elemental suits in august of 3050

also VSD and kurita both had Daishis, arguably the most powerful clan assualt mech, after training with the Wolf Dragoons

and the Free worlds league had clan tech conversion kits out in 3051





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