87 replies to this topic

[Cattra Kell]

Hello everyone, as we have seen recently there has been a massive increase in Jump Sniping as a meta. As such this is a quick first draft of two mechanics which I think would help reduce the jump sniping game - while at the same time not entirely destroying it but rather make it a bit more skill based.

As I stated - this if my first draft - please help give suggestions and feedback - its always welcomed!


First of let me start off by saying that the tactic of jump sniping is not wrong – that it is a valid tactics - but just something that I have noticed become a bit of a problem over the past few weeks as it has become more and more common. I know that I personally have been having issues with matchmaking getting numerous teams of jump snipers which at the current meta the only way to truly counter is to pop-tart yourself resulting in long 10+ minute tunnel vision sniping wars. Again – there is nothing wrong with Jump sniping – but I feel that there is just too many things at the moment that make jump sniping almost essential if you want to play.

I have talked and had discussion with a few good gentlemen from KONG and Reddit before posting here – got a bit of info and suggestions and now I wish to present it to you folks at MWO forums to get your opinion on the matter.

First suggestions – Physical reticle shake

I think that this has been the most suggested and agreed upon opinion on how to make jump sniping more skill based and balanced. What this means is that when you launch off with your jump jets your weapons reticle shakes until a certain point – most likely the pause in the jump for a small second – before shaking again in the freefall downwards. There is also the fact that this has to be a physical shake – meaning that the ridicule shake is not purely cosmetic due to players just sticking a dot on the screen to know where the shot will hit – something that actually affects the convergence of the shot. This will also give LRM’s and locking missiles a new role on the battlefield as once you get the lock – you can jump and still fire the salvo and not really feel the effects of the shake.

This also can have some canon ties to it since we know that when you jump jet in the novels and lore that the pilot is slammed into the command couch – meaning that it will be harder for them to accurately get the perfect shot off – not to mention that with the LRMs a good many of the TRO’s show a lot of mechs using jump jets to launch missiles over obstacles.

Secondly – heat adjustments to Jump Jets

I think that by increasing the heat on jump jets would also help with the issue of jump sniping. How hold on – before you freak out hear me out. What I am proposing is an increase in stages – what I mean is that with a combination of weight and number of jump jets = more heat. What I would suggest is that you split the jump jets into different heat categories based on the weight class – what I mean is this:

Because light mech jump jets are lighter (at .5 tons each) they would produce less heat then the Assault mech jump jets (at 2 tons each) because it would require more thrust to lift the mech off the ground. This system combined with the more jump jets you have attached (1 JJ would be less heat then running 4/5 jump jets) would help allow for build flexibility while also allowing balance.

Review:

Light mechs would have essentially little heat to JJ’s
Mediums = Current heat
Heavies = A bit more heat
Assaults = a bit more heat than Heavies

More JJ’s attached = slightly more heat

What this means is that jump sniping assaults would have a bit more heat applied to them – resulting in more heat balanced assault mechs and less sniper boat builds – I am not saying that jump sniping would become totally invalid but rather put more pressure heat consciousness on the pilots which could mean that they could shut down easier – allowing for people to either override more often or be immobile for a small time – which could allow for the enemy pinned down by jump snipers to have an opportunity to advance forward or move to a flank and not just continue to stand in cover to be pinned down for long periods of time.


Modules

With this addition of ridicule shake you could also have a module set added that would reduce ridicule shake and even a pilot skill to reduce heat produced by jump jets.


Conclusion

So in conclusion – I think these changes would make be a good way to reduce the massive amount of jump sniping currently in the game and makes jump sniping much more skill based.

Thank you for reading.

Thoughts – opinions?


Edit:

Remember: Feedback is always welcomed. So far what I am seeing from comments matches up with my talks on Reddit and with Kong about how shake would be the best route and people are a bit hesitant (and rightfully so) on heat increases on larger jump jets.

I do enjoy what some people from the community have suggested and thought I would share them for people to discuss:

1. Make chance of falling a variable if you do not thrust to soften the landing (once collisions are placed back into the game) - will reduce the height which the player can go - risk/reward type system - do you jump higher to get the better shot and risk falling down and being immobile for a period of time?

2. Make JJ's fuel take longer to recharge for the heavier mechs -
Meaning Lights have faster JJ recharge then say a Highlander. This would be almost a play balance like I suggested with the heat increase but without the heat where Light & medium mechs would have little to no impact as we currently see while heavies and assaults would have more time on the ground behind cover before they could pop back up.

3. Make JJ's more of a instant pop - I.E big thrust and fast launch into the air - some hang time - then fall back down. Makes the time to acquire and line up a target harder to do but still able to do - this + ridicule shake would mean there would be a "gold" time at the arch/peak of the jump where you could hit the target no problem - but on the way up and way down would be harder.

4. Make the Jump Jets arch - meaning not straight up or down but rather forward a slight bit - shifting the jump jets to more of a movability helper then as something else.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 24 April 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[Bobzilla]

Sounds good, and increase fall damge with tons. It seems it decreases with tons.

[Leimrey]

I fully support the reticule shake for jump jets, but anything that makes the heat worse than it already is is a no-go for me. Personally, I think that reticule shake + non instantaneous convergence is enough of a nerf for poptarting, though it should probably still remain at least a halfway viable tactic, since it adds to gameplay variety. Basically, potarting with PPCs and gauss should still remain viable, but you should no longer be able to reliably land pinpoint shots on your targets, shooting in the general direction of your target instead while trying to cope with the reticule shake.

[EvangelionUnit]

Leimrey, on 18 April 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

I fully support the reticule shake for jump jets, but anything that makes the heat worse than it already is is a no-go for me. Personally, I think that reticule shake + non instantaneous convergence is enough of a nerf for poptarting, though it should probably still remain at least a halfway viable tactic, since it adds to gameplay variety. Basically, potarting with PPCs and gauss should still remain viable, but you should no longer be able to reliably land pinpoint shots on your targets, shooting in the general direction of your target instead while trying to cope with the reticule shake.

since there is no real punishment for a overheat, why not make the heat for jumping higher ? you fall back into cover anyway when shutting down, you take no damage for a 200% overheat as long as the mech shuts down, so where is the problem ?

also shake worked perfect in MWLL, why shouldn't it work in MWO too ?

the idea of fall damage is also nice if someone has no jumpjet fuel to cushion his jump at the end

[Leimrey]

Another thing I wanted to note is that arm and torso reticules should have separate shaking effects, negating arm lock and making it impossible to land both arm and torso mounted weapon projectiles on the same bodypart with one alpha.

EvangelionUnit, on 18 April 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

since there is no real punishment for a overheat, why not make the heat for jumping higher

Because that would nerf JJs when it comes to using them in a brawl. You see, you absolutely cannot allow yourself to overheat in a brawl and using JJs when the heat system is already f***** would be too much of a luxury for many high heat brawler builds.

[benth]

I like the idea of using reticule shake and JJ heat to balance poptarting, but I don't like the idea of having modules that reduce the effects of these.

A ) It kind of breaks the reason for adding these in the first place and B ) It gives PGI a path to take in the future to add more inconveniences only for them to add modules to cover the gap.

For example, I don't want them to keep missiles nerfed as they are now and then simply add a "Missile Targeting Computer" module later that brings them back to what they were.

Edited by benth, 18 April 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[EvangelionUnit]

Leimrey, on 18 April 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Another thing I wanted to note is that arm and torso reticules should have separate shaking effects, negating arm lock and making it impossible to land both arm and torso mounted weapon projectiles on the same bodypart with one alpha.




Because that would nerf JJs when it comes to using them in a brawl. You see, you absolutely cannot allow yourself to overheat in a brawl and using JJs when the heat system is already f***** would be too much of a luxury for many high heat brawler builds.

nope it would just reduce the role of JJ's in a brawl to a last fast exit ... and not a trolololol i keep jumping around you like i want ... or you can't have the high alpha damage if you want to be so mobile ...

[Vassago Rain]

I support this.

[Leetskeet]

These are all good changes, but I don't know if they're actually going to solve the problem. All heat or shake is going to is make it more difficult but not any less effective. It just means that you'll need to cool off more before you jump(not that shutting down midair particularly matters because you're going to drop back down behind cover) and that you'll have to be marginally quicker at pointing towards what you're trying to hit after the shake is over

I've been asking why they haven't tried the MWLL model since the damn beginning of closed beta, but alas, here we are with these trashy, boring MW4 floaty crapjets. The Jumpjets in MWLL were one of the only things in that game that actually truly deserved to be picked up by the next generation of Mechwarrior. They were movement tools first and foremost with a high rate of acceleration and directional control, ridiculous shake on ascent so it was completely impossible to shoot until you were at the very top of your jump, and then since there was so much thrust if you decided to try to jump straight up to poptart there was a brief period of time where you basically sat in the air waiting to get shot at.

But this is certainly not the only flawed mechanic the devs are far too stubborn to change, so don't have any expectations. I lost the ability to expect anything from these people long ago.

Edited by Leetskeet, 18 April 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Cattra Kell]

Leetskeet, on 18 April 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

These are all good changes, but I don't know if they're actually going to solve the problem. All heat or shake is going to is make it more difficult but not any less effective. It just means that you'll need to cool off more before you jump(not that shutting down midair particularly matters because you're going to drop back down behind cover) and that you'll have to be marginally quicker at pointing towards what you're trying to hit after the shake is over

I agree but the point wasn't to remove the jump sniping entirely due to it being a legitimate strategy - rather just make it less appealing by making it take a bit more skill to do correctly and as such hopefully reduce the amount of jump snipers we see now in game. The reason for the heat changes was just that - to make jump sniping a bit of a jump up - fire - potentially shut down if you are running too hot / high alpha heat - allowing for the enemy to actually take advantage of your penalty of the shutdown time you are immobile, allowing them to either advance or flank you since you have no radar. I think the shake would be the best route - the heat would also help I think - mainly if you scale it - so jump sniping in a light would be fine since it would have a lighter payload of maybe a single PPC or two compared to an assault who would be heavily penalized but can carry more alpha but risks shutdown. So its a risk reward type thing - where you can run a light mech and jump snipe without much penalty - mediums could jump snipe with not that big of a penalty - heavies are able to jump snipe with a slight penalty and finally assaults can jump snipe with a penalty due to the ability to have the big alphas. I am trying to think how to articulate this idea/concept properly.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 18 April 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Skribs]

Reticle shake gets my vote. Makes it still possible if you're patient with your shots without making it simple and easy to do. Also makes it possible to jump up and fire on a target 200m away with relative ease.

[MasterErrant]

the only problem I have with poptarts is the boring tsk of killing them. most of em waste many more shots than hit and if you are calm you can zap them pretty much every time they jump.
the trend I'm seeing is for a PT or to to try and pin the enemy down so the non jumpers cam flank.

If the fixed the Etreme range convergence/accuracy fail it would be self repeaiing.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Agreed OP.

[Moonsword86]

I agree with what Cattra has said, it makes sense.

[MasterErrant]

I bsollutely don not magree about raising heat on bigger mechs. they are already on the short end with the basic distortion of the heat system...bigger mechs biggher weapond more heat same heat sink cap.

[Yiazmat]

JJ heat increase.... No. no no no no **** no. I brawl in my highlanders, thank you very much. and having jjs vs an atlas in a duel is invaluable. they already add like 8-12% heat on jump when I'm dancing on the heads of other assaults. There's no need for this at all.

[Maelas]

Hey there,

New to the entire forum contributions thing but here goes.

As a person who personally is a fan of poptarting, i actually do not agree in increasing heat that jj produce. As it has been pointed out others who dont use jj to poptart but instead in a brawl would feel extremely nerfed and i personally believe jj heat is fine. I do however agree with reticle shake. It would just be another thing to get used to.

I would like to ask though. Why ask for a nerf just because there is an increase in one particular play style. For all we know, the way it was made could be perfect and not need any tweaking at all. Im not here to troll in ANY fashion. This is a legitimate posting.

[Yenisey]

Support this.
At least need to lower the aiming accuracy when flying.

A few points from this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jet:
1. Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected.
2. Because of the heat produced by jump jet activation and limited on-board fuel, jump jets can only maintain thrust for a few seconds.
3. A far cry from flight, jump jets nevertheless allow a 'Mech to make short leaps sufficient enough to outmaneuver 'Mechs not similarly equipped or bypass obstacles and unfavorable terrain
4. Care must be taken when jumping, however, as jumping causes heat buildup with even the shortest jump generating more heat than running, and damage to a 'Mech's gyro or leg actuators and joints can cause a 'Mech to fumble upon landing

Mechanics jump jets in the game does not work properly. I do not understand how a mech can fly up if the packs are installed on the back? They should at least push the mech forward.

As I understand it, jump jets are used for the rapid penetration of the battlefield, or vice versa rapid disappearance of the combat zone. Jump jets can be applied to overcome the obstacles. But they can not apply for a flight battlmech up without a simultaneous movement in the front.

I think for vertical flight, jet engines must be placed in the top of the machine.
Like this:

Edited by Marthe, 19 April 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[White Bear 84]

I posted a suggestion in regards to mech quirks.

http://mwomercs.com/...-cheese-builds/

If you mount heavier ballistics, jump jets have less lift.

With reticule shake will greatly reduce appearance of poptarts

[Reno Blade]

Yes to more shake and more heat!
Please add a poll with "Yes, I agree", "No, I disagree", "Abstain" to follow the Admin rules for easier collected suggestions.