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Weapon Balancing Followup - Feedback


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#1 miSs

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:43 PM

This thread shall serve as an official response channel to Paul Inouye's latest Weapon update:

View PostPaul Inouye, on 02 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to let you know that I have just returned from a 2 week break so expect some new things to come when it comes to weapon updates/balancing.

Prior to leaving on break, I put in a series of requests for certain weapon subsystems to be implemented. These implementations have been completed but I have not had time to check them yet. Once I've checked and approved these changes, they make their way into a build. At that point QA attacks the feature set and I can start setting numbers.

Do not fear, I am VERY well aware of the hot topics right now and they will be addressed. I am not going to give numbers or timelines until the changes have been put forth into a pre-release build that will be about 2 weeks away from going live. At that time, I will fully let you know what the changes and implications of any balancing will have on the game.

From this point forward, in our quest to hit our launch date, you are going to see an aggressive series of weapon updates with each patch.

That being said, high on priority is the SRM spread/damage and the high alpha meta going on in the game. I'll update you on these as soon as the changes have been put into test.

-Paul


In an effort to reduce clutter on the forums, and to make it easier for us to compile feedback for our developers, please help us contain feedback to this thread.

Edited by Niko Snow, 16 September 2013 - 12:37 PM.
updated quote and link


#2 Avalios

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:46 PM

You ignored every weapon that is actually impacting the true balance of the game.

#3 Jojobird

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:46 PM

I think that based on the current state of the game, everyone wants to know, whether PPCs/ERPPCs are also under review, or are they working as intended.

#4 Loler skates

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

View PostJojobird, on 23 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I think that based on the current state of the game, everyone wants to know, whether PPCs/ERPPCs are also under review, or are they working as intended.


ppcs don't need a change. Brawling weapons do.

Make Srms viable for brawling and the meta will shift as getting really close suddenly makes things very dangerous for snipers.

#5 Roadbeer

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostAvalios, on 23 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

You ignored every weapon that is actually impacting the true balance of the game.


Which ones would that be?


View PostLoler skates, on 23 April 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:


ppcs don't need a change. Brawling weapons do.

Make Srms viable for brawling and the meta will shift as getting really close suddenly makes things very dangerous for snipers.


THIS

We know it's in the works, we'll see next month what that really means.

#6 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:54 PM

All I can say is...make it fast...whatever you do.

Do not let this drag on for two months.

Change some variables and stick it in the next patch and see what happens. If it doesn't work, change it in the next patch.

But seriously, this month long wait to adjust things kills the game.

#7 Riall

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostThontor, on 23 April 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The fact that engines cannot be destroyed via critical hits right now kinda hurts the crit bonus idea. Depending on how many hit points engines end up having once they can be destroyed via critical hits, that could make things a bit more interesting. 4MGs do 20 critical hit DPS right now.... even if engines have something like 30-40 hit points, MGs will be able to destroy that engine in a couple seconds, pretty efficient mech killers against exposed CT internals.



This! 1000% this! The vast majority of damage mechs take is on the CT and Side Torsos. Half of the 'crit damage' is wasted on the engine and gyros which can't suffer crits and can't cripple mechs as a result. Until this is implemented, any crit buffs weapons are given is just for show and won't really help actually destroy the parts that are usually exposed.

They should focus on making engine and gyro crits actually do something before they worry about how good or bad the machine guns, LBX and other crit-buffed weapons are or they'll be in the same position as missiles where they need to nerf them to reevaluate their effectiveness.

#8 shintakie

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

Im terrified what the definition of slight damage increase for MG's need. Do they mean slight as in .04 damage per bullet to .08 or .12 damage per bullet? Numerically its a very slight damage increase. Percentage wise its a 100-200% increase in damage.

Still holdin out hope for 1.2 dps at the minimum.

BTW. Glad they came to their sense on MG damage. Guess they really weren't workin as intended. Cheers!

#9 Galenit

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

Quote

This may be done by either increasing the damage per shell/bomb or by increasing the splash damage radius so it does more damage before falling off to 0.


Greater splash radius is a must. Bombardments are about damage over a great area.
It should be, that a mech can be damaged by more then 1 bomb/shell or that a artillery strike does damage to everyone in the quadrant, not so much on the most, but some on direct hits.

About weapon balance:
Look at your numbers and see that something is wrong.

Edited by Galenit, 23 April 2013 - 12:58 PM.


#10 Roadbeer

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

View Postshintakie, on 23 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:


Still holdin out hope for 1.2 dps at the minimum.



Edit:
Retracted for misreading.

Edited by Roadbeer, 23 April 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#11 PEEFsmash

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:00 PM

I am somewhat amazed that SRM damage is not under review. Bringing SRM damage values up even just .5 per missile would help eliminate this AWFUL sniper-only metagame that is so terrifically dominant. Fixing SRM damage (not returning it to previous huge splash damage glitch levels, of course) would be the single most helpful balance change that the team could enact to help fix this sniper overcentralization.

Streak damage should be lowered or have tracking ability lowered. Streaks are so amazing due to their 100% hit rate that now assaults no longer have to care about light mechs whatsoever. Just throw on a couple streaks and you can dominate even the best light pilots with ease.

But I can hear you saying now, "But PEEF, you just said SRMs are underpowered and Streaks are overpowered. They are both types of SRMs...contradiction!" This is simply not true. The reason that SRMs are underpowered is that they spread their damage over many components, and do too little damage to each. Snipers can just tank the hits, cool down, and then pinpoint snipe you in the chest. Snipers>Brawlers in many brawling situations. Streaks are overpowered because they AUTOMATICALLY hit center torso every single time, regardless of pilot skill. Lights can work to out-dodge or out-position SRMs, but Streaks will hit you almost every time regardless of position, and they will hit CT. Big slow stompy assaults/heavies should not get a free pass against lights. Lights should be able to fight isolated, unsupported slow assaults.

Please take into consideration these changes, the metagame right now is so stale (not only in pugs, but even up to the highest competitive level). This is the current name of the game: Snipe if you can snipe, and Streak if you can Streak. End of story.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 23 April 2013 - 01:06 PM.


#12 Loler skates

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostRoadbeer, on 23 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:


Have you lost your mind?


No but you may have lost yours.

Do you actually know how the mg works currently in mwo?

Simply put it's the only weapon in the game apart from the LBX which doesn't even a single shot that goes through the center reticle it's a pure cone with bullets going every where. se even doing SLIGHTLY more damage per second than the small laser overall if it kept its current downsides it would still be OBJECTIVELY worse.

IF you wish to refute the above observations explain why properly instead of knee jerking as you currently are.

#13 Dremster

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:03 PM

Thank you for the update, it's nice to get a heads up now and then. Also looking forward to improved LRM flight speed, and machine gun tweaks.

#14 MasterBLB

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 23 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Currently under review:
MG range, RoF, and spread, slight damage adjustment.
LBX/10 Spread.
LRM speed adjustment (This has nothing to do with trajectory and clustering, just something that is needed overall).
AC/5 Range and possible dmg adjustment.
BAP improvements.


Well Mr Inouye,well said.
1)Machine Guns really need tweaks,all of these mentioned aspects would be nice to increase.Remember,there are plenty of light mechs that can mount 4 mgs,so it'd be nice if these builds will be viable
2)LBX 10 spread - the best option there would be create a new,bindable action "Change weapon mode".For LBXes it would mean 3 states - tight spread,normal spread and wide spread.This also opens opportunities for other weapons,ex UACs with "Normal mode" and "Ultra mode" would have solve all this "jam on 1st shot" issues
3)Definetly a needed change,it's ridiculous that light mechs are able to outrun on feet chasing them LRMs.But for the missiles much more needed is to restore old damage values,of course when all these splat damage bugs will be solved.Btw,SRMs speed should also be increased
5)Well,AC5 range needs to be greater than UAC5's one to make it real alternative,that's for sure.About damage,well I'd leave it as it is,but I'd reduce cooldown to 1.5s
6)BAP definetly should be improved.For my ideas please see this post,search for "BAP improvement" phrase

#15 Harabeck

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:05 PM

MG range, RoF, and spread, slight damage adjustment:

Leave it as is except for damage. Give it slightly less dps than a small laser.

LBX/10 Spread:

Spread? No amount of adjusting its spread will make it better. The AC/10 is a mediocre weapon and the LBX is inferior to it in ever way. It's shorter range, heavier, and spreads its damage out over multiple parts. You have to increase damage for the LBX to be worth it.

LRM speed adjustment:

LRM's need to travel much faster, they're too easy to dodge. But they also need a damage increase from their current level. Even if I get to pound a target uninterrupted, their damage is pathetic compared to other weapons.

#16 Loler skates

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostHarabeck, on 23 April 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

MG range, RoF, and spread, slight damage adjustment:

Leave it as is except for damage. Give it slightly less dps than a small laser.


You've never bothered to look at how the mg works in MWO have you?

Take a mech to the training grounds and shoot with 4mgs (the spider)

do the same with a jenner with 4 small lasers

See the difference and weep.

#17 Tennex

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:08 PM

awesome job

but i hope to see them buff the DPS (rate of fire mostly) before they consider the range and spread.
one variable at a time so to speak

Edited by Tennex, 23 April 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#18 Loler skates

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:12 PM

View PostTennex, on 23 April 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

awesome job

but i hope to see them buff the DPS (rate of fire mostly) before they consider the range and spread.
one variable at a time so to speak

Also: make small adjustments and let us test it. you guys don't need to go through internal adjustments for balance changes. these changes are controlled. unlike balance changes introduced by bugs.


it shouldn't have spread at all it's pretty non trivial to have next to no spread on autocannons (which the mg is) and the spread makes the weapon pretty bad regardless of any other buffs you could give it.

#19 Tennex

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:13 PM

make small adjustments and let us test it. you guys don't need to go through internal testing for balance changes. these changes are controlled and intentional.

theres no way these controlled intentional balance changes will be as bad as the balance changes introduced by bugs that we often get anyway.

there are also things the players think of the devs never could. becaause there are so many more of us and we play so much more.

Edited by Tennex, 23 April 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#20 Tennex

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostLoler skates, on 23 April 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

it shouldn't have spread at all it's pretty non trivial to have next to no spread on autocannons (which the mg is) and the spread makes the weapon pretty bad regardless of any other buffs you could give it.


it should have spread. the spread gives it a unique weapon mechanic. the spread is already very tight.





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