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100+ Ton Super-Assault Mech?


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#221 Melcyna

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:10 AM

technically that's not really true since the line of thought is full of holes in itself...

let's pretend for a moment that BT made sense physically (it's not, giant bipedal combat machines never made sense in the first place, but let's pretend it is for now),

if there's no single engine powerful enough to power and move it, then you use two engine and tandem their output... heck even easier here given that their primary expected output are: electricity, plasma... there's no conceivable reason i can think of why this has to come from a single engine except weight and space but both are going to be upscaled anyway for the mech. Even in the case of old fashioned engine we've figured out how to get 2 engine to work on the same crank shaft so the idea that they can't get 2 fusion engine, which is essentially a power generator to work together and combine their output is somewhat illogical.

Next, chassis... no material strong enough to hold the strain and weight? But a 100ton mech moves at it's pace with absolutely no problem?

It's physically illogical that they can get a 100ton chassis in BT to walk about plain as a day and fails the moment it gets above 100ton like a magical threshold, if such reasoning as weight and strain is used then logically an Atlas mech for example which sits as close as it gets to the threshold should have such heavy strain that under fire it's chassis should catastrophically fail under it's own weight when it so much as land it's foot from a slight elevation or shot in the chassis structure even if the shot didn't set anything else off.

Then there's the muscle...

You know the great thing about muscle like motive mechanism? You can stack them... like REALLY STACK THEM.

X amount of muscle fiber connected to the limb is not enough? then use 2X amount of muscle, that's not enough? then use 3X amount of muscle.

Sure you need more power for it, but again similar to the chassis argument, if they managed to get a 100ton chassis to move at that pace, it's illogical that they just suddenly unable to get it to work beyond 100ton.

Now there is indeed such a thing as diminishing return and inefficiency of course, so one might argue that beyond 100ton the return from stacking the power or the muscle, etc will not be effective... the unfortunate part of this thought however is that this line of thought also highlight that even the 100ton mech are hardly performing like they are close to the point of ineffective movement capability... ie: they clearly are capable of pushing the envelope further otherwise the Atlas would be near immobile.

This technically of course had to be done since otherwise we don't get much of a point for these heavies at all in the game in which case they might as well not be there... and while we might fancy comparison of the story with that of the real war tank performance where the heavy tanks were of little use with the more flexible and mobile mediums being largely superior, we can't have that in a game where these heavy chassis are supposed to be useful.

TLDR?

Battletech is a soft sci-fi, the more one try and explain them, the more holes you open because let's face it... it's not a hard sci-fi, it will NOT survive the attempt to explain them like hard sci-fi material.

Edited by Melcyna, 27 July 2012 - 11:25 AM.


#222 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

The rules for 100+ ton Mechs have been around for about ten years. They were created by Dave MacCullock long before he joined the writers of CBT. His rules for Battle Armor construction was tweaked and implemented into the core rules, I know, I have the home brew and playtested the official rules. I also have the original and have read the advanced rules for the super heavy Mechs. They are out there, I have designed four or five even a 200 ton beast named Rhynox.

#223 Kaldoran Bloodwar

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostDark Severance, on 05 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Until XL Engines, there wasn't an Engine big enough or powerful enough to power and move it. Until Endo Steel there wasn't a mech chassis that could even begin to hold the strain and weight of that much tonnage. Until advantacements in Myomer fibers there weren't muscles strong enough to actually move the joints of the mech.

I see your 135 ton mech and raise you a dropship. Anything larger than 100 tons is what Dropships are for. ^_^

If I recall, everything is broken down in percentages.. I don't have the battletech games anymore due to certain life happenings but that will be changing soon. Just purchased 20th Anniversary Shadowrun and will be buying 25th Anniversary Battletech next payday. Look... Everything is broken down into Percentages. Which means... it does not matter the size. Lets say 5 percent of your weight is devoted to your internal structure. 5 percent is spread evenly among your mech no matter the size. So a 100 ton mech is going to have 5 tons of SI. 5=20 as 20=80. The point is... if a one hundred ton mech has 5 tons for IS, then a 200 ton mech would need 10 tons. I am just going by my faded memory. The main thing is to remember that the biggest engine had a 400 factor. So technically we could have a 400 ton mech.. but it would only have a 1 HEX walk 1 Hex RUN speed. Since we couldnt go less than 1 hex but some may dispute that and say that your run and walk cannot be the same. Then you would go with a 200 ton mech then. A 200 ton mech could have a 400 Factor engine 52 tons, and it would have a walk 2 Hex and 3 Run. Or 20kph and 30 kph. I have made 200 ton mechs and I have made 400 ton mechs. So the only thing that keeps the game from totally getting out of balance is just not allowing Engine factors to go over 400 which is what I did with mycampaigns.

#224 Madidus

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:50 PM

I'd rather see 100+ mechs any day before they start adding LAMs... with the size of the battles anything bigger than an Atlas will most likely be ineffective. Any mech over 100 tons should only be used for attacking stationary targets.

#225 Ettibber

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:56 AM

View PostTHE Leo, on 05 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

When you think about it, why the hell has no one ever tried creating a Mech over a 100 tons? It would mean more firepower, more space, and more awesomeness. Of course that would also mean even less maneuverability, even less speed, and even less response time.

Imagine feeling like a badass in your atlas thinking 'oh yeah i am a freaking boss' and then BAM! you come up to this Mech that makes you feel like crawling into bed and hiding beneath the blankets (like we all know that helps, ha!)

So a 100+ ton Mech huh?...... hmmmm... earthquake possibilities anyone??

basic reason...because once you hit that much weight it becomes prohibitive. you'd actually lose space just to have the think be over 100 tons. i don't have my creation book with me as it is with a friend but i think the 400 class engine was 55.5 tons, and that would let an atlas move at 4/6 movement. after the base armour i think the atlas would be at around 20 or so tons for weapons which puts it around a 60 ton mech.

#226 God of War

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:17 AM

super heavy Mechs are just as useless as it sounds.
Super heavys like the Omega http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29 build after
the offical counstruction rules from Jihad: Final Reckoning are simple not worth the money/material!




#227 Capt Cole 117

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:33 AM

So cool, yet so impractical.

Posted Image

#228 Bee Darth

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:38 AM

I used to play Mechwarrior on the Amega. In the last instalment of the game, we could have mechs up to 300 tonnes i think.

#229 CCC Dober

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

@Cole
2 words: void shields

Oh and let's not forget armor made from adamantium, the holy grail of materials science. So much for impractical ...

#230 VxSaAgE

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:26 AM

mmmm no thanks

#231 Iron Harlequin

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:30 AM

necro thread....

#232 Skylarr

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:44 AM

View Postwanderer, on 25 July 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:


Nope, the Omega is very much canon. It's from Jihad: Final Reckoning, which details the end of the war.

Posted Image

Here's the mini from Iron Wind Metals.


The Omega was not added to Sarna until July 17, 2012 That is why I could not find any info about it.

#233 Grey Weasel

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:53 AM

View PostMagnusEffect, on 05 June 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:


I am perfectly happy continuing to believe it didn't happen. Again.. **** the Jihad. I don't give a damn if it was an official publishing. All that **** was retarded and poorly written. Anyone saying differently is either a dumbass or secretly hates Battletech. Judgemental? On things like this, you can bet your *** I am.

Good thing you aren't the final arbiter of what is and is not canon, then. We're supposed to respect your opinion, but our own is worthless to you. That does tell me just about all I need to know.

#234 wanderer

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostGod of War, on 28 July 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

super heavy Mechs are just as useless as it sounds.
Super heavys like the Omega http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29 build after
the offical counstruction rules from Jihad: Final Reckoning are simple not worth the money/material!


Actually, some of the better designs are barely heavier than an Atlas. Why?

Because superheavies have much more internal space to work with. A 110-ton energy boat is frightening when you realize that even IS DHS take up only 2 crits per on a SH, and you can fit an ER PPC into 2 crits as well, ditto an XL engine- and IS endosteel only takes up 7 crits as well. You aren't quite rebuilding the Hellstar, but you can do a rather nice design.

#235 Sporkosophy

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

View PostCaptain Nice HD, on 25 July 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Bah, you unimaginative Mech jocks and your Omegas and Areses. I'll take a SturmFeur Kalki, please; daddy needs his Cruise Missiles. :P


Don't miss that one shot you have.

#236 Skylarr

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostCaptain Nice HD, on 25 July 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Bah, you unimaginative Mech jocks and your Omegas and Areses. I'll take a SturmFeur Kalki, please; daddy needs his Cruise Missiles. :P



#237 Seabear

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:39 AM

Given the canon, even some 100 ton mechs had lots of problems. Witness the Stone Rhino, aka "Aramis' folly", which only clan engineering and technology could get to function. Or the Stalker which had trouble with its legs and hips handling the weight.

#238 Lokust

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:48 AM

nothing over 100 tons ever existed in canon Battletech. Some people consider the Wizkids "Classic Battletech" story stuff to be canon, but as far as I'm concerned the story ends at the FedCom civil war storyline, because everything Wizkids did was beyond terrible.

#239 Neput Z34

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:00 AM

If there are mechs over 100 metric tons, it's not 3049 and it's not Mech Warrior.

Short answer is NO!

#240 Khushrenada

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

simple answer: no

not so simple answer: guess everyone that wants a 100+ tons mech thinks more weight means more power and they can kill everything and everyone on the battlefield without beeing killed.

problem with that is: it won`t work out that way in battletech :P
your super heavy mech that would hardly be able to move around would be swarmed by enemies, easily staying out of its firing arcs and destroyed. if all players would drive such an abomination, the rounds would be over due time out, before anyone could move in range of each other and fire one shot :lol:

more armor won`t save you in this game from beeing shot down by even the smallest mechs, it may just take a little longer...

this is not a game that races mechs from big to bigger, to bigger to bigger to bigger and you need to pilot the biggest mech available to be competetive against others and ensures your win cause you simply have the biggest war machine out in the field.
and i really like that :wub:

edit: trying to get rid of the space at the last lines.... failed :wacko:

Edited by Khushrenada, 30 July 2012 - 11:20 AM.






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