286 replies to this topic

[Frostiken]

Alfred VonGunn, on 07 June 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

See this is why in a post back a couple weeks ago I suggested that the a fee to customize your mechs to... It should cost something to swap out a AC20 for a Guass Rifle. Not just the cost of the rifle either. It takes man hours and a mech repair bay and skills to do.. That way you don't have people swapping out loadouts every battle. This is supposed to be a War.. If your fighting multipule drops on the same planet.. When did you have time to do a full refit? You fight a battle get repaird as fast as you can then back into the field.. Now if you fight 1 battle on this planet then your next on another.. refit is easy.. since your traveling for day or weeks via jumpship..(Sure the game will see it as teh same day.. but that is an extrapilation we all are excepting to have a game...)

Aye, I remember that post, and I agree with it. I'm unsure how you could / would go about doing this though.

The entire reason Battlemechs tend to have odd mixes of weapons is because they cannot be easily customized. If people were doomed to use their custom mech, as-is in every battle, it might help prevent the min/maxing to some degree, though obviously having a hangar full of customized mechs would mitigate this.

[DauntlessK]

As a longtime Eve player (but no longer) I know how it goes when you lose something very very expensive that you worked days / months for. Having lost a carrier, t3 and back back in 2005, a BC (when ships like that were still the same price but grinding was much much much slower, so 30mill literally took months.

Anyway, losing mechs or items may or may not be the answer. I defintely don't support the timed idea. Limiting how much one can play is just bad for business, on top of everything else. But some sort of either in-game balance or otherwise cost MUST be in place to prevent everyone using CERPPCs and such. One thing I cannot stand in a game is that rush to get the best items and then once you have them it gets real boring. But the boringness isn't even the worst part... it is the fact that since the top weapons are now the norm, new players are at a big disadvantage, which really creates problems for obvious reasons.

[Team Leader]

Kedolan, on 07 June 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

What if instead of losing a mech for good, it just got "heavily damaged" and would have some kind of a timer before you could use it again? Then you could tweak the timer based on how many pieces of rare/exotic equipment it had on it (say a 30m-1h timer for a stock mech, but like 2-3h for a really fancy one with all the bells and whistles?). You could even then allow someone to pay for a quick fix on it (either with C-bills, or with thier cash shop currency), with the cost being based on the amount of time it has left. That way if a stock mech with only basic gear was taken out of action it'd be a quick turn around to get it fixed, or a fairly small investment of cash, but if your crazy good mech goes down, you have to make the choice of spending a decent chunk of C-bills or using a more modest mech for a while.

Thats a pretty good idea. Then its not lost forever but you still can't use it... Smart.

[LackofCertainty]

1. The devs have said that you will never lose your mech, and you will never lose your gear. (your gear/mech might need to be repaired, but it will never be fully taken away from you)

If this were going to be a super-niche subscription based game, then maybe it could get away with a super punishing setup like you describe. (a la EvE) However, this game is going for a broad appeal, and the majority of people don't like saving up to buy a shiny new mech, getting unlucky in their first match, and ending up with nothing to show for all their efforts.

2. C-Bills only become worthless if the Devs have stuff underpriced or are unable to release a consistent stream of content for purchase. For Example: LoL releases a new champion every two weeks, and the majority of the playerbase make no where near enough in-game currency to unlock each and every one as they come out. Sure, the top 1% that play the game constantly have hundreds of thousands of in game currency built up, but the economy of it works for the average player.

3. Allowing for bankruptcy is a deterent a lot of players. If you allow a player to completely lose everything they've worked for, a lot of players will feel downtrodden and discouraged. As covered in my first point, that sort of setup works for niche products that rely on subscriptions. It doesn't work so well for a F2P game that relies on a small percentage of its audience putting forward money.

4. They are going to allow you to buy in game items with real $. In the mechlab videos each mech and each weapon have both a C-Bills price and a MC price. (which is the real $ currency) Part of how PGI will make money on MWO will be to make cbill gain a slow steady process, so that you -could- unlock everything with enough time, but it will be much more convenient to supplement that with real $.


Honestly, I would be interested in seeing a super hardcore sim of MechWarrior/BattleTech like what you're suggesting, but I realize that this isn't the project that is going to do that for me. If you want to run a super-hardcore game like that your best bet would be to find/make a TT group with that specific type of game in mind.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 07 June 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Frostiken]

LackofCertainty, on 07 June 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

2. C-Bills only become worthless if the Devs have stuff underpriced or are unable to release a consistent stream of content for purchase. For Example: LoL releases a new champion every two weeks, and the majority of the playerbase make no where near enough in-game currency to unlock each and every one as they come out. Sure, the top 1% that play the game constantly have hundreds of thousands of in game currency built up, but the economy of it works for the average player.

You've overlooked the biggest limitation - unless PGI starts adding their own crap, which I doubt they will because these forums would EXPLODE, we all know what the 'end game' is. Clantech, probably gauss rifles, PPCs, large lasers, packed to the brim with double heatsinks. Once you've got a hangar full of Clantech, there's nowhere else to go, most certainly not down.

[Inquisitor Pain]

I don't want to see 'Gold" ammo or cash for win, i wouldn't mind if there was a repair option where your exuipment takes damage in battle and cost people a little real world cash to fix, I want this game to suceed and for it to remain long term viable they need a steady stream of microtransactions.
I would prefer destruction and salvage, i am an eve player and haveing played plenty of mmos i find i prefer hard core mode, Battletech is a mature title thats been around a long time, why not play it like adults rather than children? Risk/reward requires risk to make it fun and challengeing.

[UncleKulikov]

Your mechanics suggestions are based on the assumption that fancier tech is just going to be much better than standard issue. Though it probably will be, it would be much simpler for balance to give each weapon a niche so that there aren't simply better versions of older equipment around.
If the gear is balanced throughout, you will see cheaper stuff being used for it's capabilities instead of because people are too poor to use something else. It doesn't make much sense to have no mech tiers, and then just have equipment tiers take their place.

Secondly, I'm not interested in grinding on a cheap mech to earn money to use my fancy mech. It isn't fun in World of Tanks, it won't be fun here. I don't care that C Bills will become "worthless" - there are the mechs and weapons I want to buy, and the configurations I want to deploy, and I will spend C Bills until I can get all of that (which is a lot). After I get everything I want, I'm still going to play the damn game, because it's fun. I'm not going to stop playing if I've bought everything I want, I'm going to use all of it on the field.

C Bills becoming worthless isn't a problem, because people at the same level will have the same C bill situation. Where C bills become worthless, gameplay, skills, and tactics make the game. And that's what I want to play.

The whole concept of being able to lose money during a match emphasizes playing for C bills instead of fun, which is %*$&ing ridiculous. It reinforces that this game is just for grinding, just for the economy. That there isn't anything out there except grinding gears for c bills to grind more gears for more c bills.

The penalty for losing should be that - Losing. Remember when that was enough?

[Buddahcjcc]

PANZERBUNNY, on 07 June 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

No destroyable mechs.

Sorry.

Bankruptcy should not be an option.

Sorry.

Punishing game mechanics that don't fit into this game model.

No, The Mittani, you cannot have EVE here too

[PANZERBUNNY]

Frostiken, on 07 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

You've overlooked the biggest limitation - unless PGI starts adding their own crap, which I doubt they will because these forums would EXPLODE, we all know what the 'end game' is. Clantech, probably gauss rifles, PPCs, large lasers, packed to the brim with double heatsinks. Once you've got a hangar full of Clantech, there's nowhere else to go, most certainly not down.

Which is when the game can REALLY starts......you know..play it without worrying about balancing C-Bills for repairs and new gear?

We'll spend a year getting used a certain type of game play only to have it blasted out of the water when the Clans arrive and have to learn new strats and get used to new playstyles.

That's 1/2-2 years without really trying very hard.

I assume they'll eventually add more depth to the conquest system, making it more dynamic.

If the game has solid action and gameplay there is no need to worry about the game not having "end game".

Quite frankly the only end game I want is when I turn my computer off, only to get back into it when I turn it back on.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 07 June 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Geist Null]

i dont think theres a need to destroy mechs as long as new mechs and variations keep coming out as the game progresses. everyone is gonna want to trade up to new ones. the tech tree does the same for weapons. why keep your old ac/20, when you can buy a new UAC/20. theres plenty of gold sinks

[Frostiken]

PANZERBUNNY, on 07 June 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Which is when the game can REALLY start......you know..play it without worrying about balancing C-Bills for repairs and new gear?

And why is that so objectionable? Resource management is a foundation of many games, adds depth, and a greater sense of reward.

I'm not one of those 'play to win' guys where a "YUO R TEH WINRAR" screen at the end of the round generates the most enjoyment for me. I prefer things to be more... cerebral.

Edited by Frostiken, 07 June 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[Tandris]

I certainly agree that powercreep is a problem. One for which I don't have a quick solution (and if I did I would hope to be on the dev team). What I do find interesting is the assumption that there is going to be a move to Clan or Lostech available to the player.
It would be my expectation that if they DO introduce advanced tech, that would be the thing that would keep C-Bills in check. Standard equipment is invulnerable and advanced tech COULD be destroyed if it gets shot up.
I'm sure there are lots of people that would be upset to lose the advanced tech they "paid" for. (C-bills or what have you), But without any risk to throwing your mech into combat I think that would make the game feel less like the Mechwarrior/Battletech game I love.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Frostiken, on 07 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

And why is that so objectionable? Resource management is a foundation of many games. I don't see people ******** that they can't play the "real Starcraft" because they have to grind for crystal.

I would rather grind for bath salts than crystal.

This games resource management will be VERY minimal, because from what we can tell of their vision for the game, it's out of the scope for what they are after.

So perhaps getting used to the fact that resources won't a foundation of this game, will help you enjoy yourself more.

[DauntlessK]

PANZERBUNNY, on 07 June 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I would rather grind for bath salts than crystal.

This games resource management will be VERY minimal, because from what we can tell of their vision for the game, it's out of the scope for what they are after.

So perhaps getting used to the fact that resources won't a foundation of this game, will help you enjoy yourself more.

I think you're getting away from the fact that this game isn't JUST supposed to be a mech combat game. A 15 minute deathmatch and then back to the loading screen to do match up to do it again. Its supposed to be a persistant world with battles raging for dominancy. We really don't know much about campaigns and world captures yet, so we can't say JUST how important resources will be. Needless to say if you take resources out you find yourself with a bland game where everyone plays one type with one weapon and it just isn't fun.

[Frostiken]

PANZERBUNNY, on 07 June 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

So perhaps getting used to the fact that resources won't a foundation of this game, will help you enjoy yourself more.

Not really. Every single Mechwarrior game to date except maybe Mechcommander - if that even counts - completely excluded resource management, and every single one degrades at some point or another into a homogenous Clantech soup.
The opportunity for a repair / resource system to actually curtail / punish you for relying too much on high-tech would be a breath of fresh air to a franchise that has suffered from power creep for too long.

I'm not saying this in a 'GTFO' kind of way, but if all you care about is playing the "real" game once you have a closet full of ERPPCs and a garage full of Timberwolves, or what-have-you, why do you care about playing this game over MW4 or MWLL? Both would offer the same 'tactics and skill' you say you want, without the necessity of grinding in the first place. You get what you want, right off the bat.

Edited by Frostiken, 07 June 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Roland]

If there's no damage to equipment, and you're always gaining more and more money.. then isn't everyone just gonna eventually be sitting on a mountain of gold?

So, for instance, when the clan mechs come out as you predict... everyone would just buy all of them?

Seems like if they went your route, there's not really any point to having the c-bills at all. It'd just be like MW4, where there were "prices" on weapons and stuff, but none of it mattered, because you had everything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against that. But at the same time, given they've obviously put some thought into the economy, it doesn't seem like that's how it's gonna be.

[Frostiken]

I like to think that a game dev is reading this thread and his ******** puckers a little and he goes 'oh... ****' and frantically calls up Paul going 'what the **** are we gonna do man?!'

[LackofCertainty]

Frostiken, on 07 June 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

This.

A compromise solution would be to make it so damaged equipment has to be repaired in real-time. Very basic equipment like machine guns, flamers, and small weapons like AC/2s and small pulse lasers should be fixed with some duct tape and a new splash of paint.

An ER large laser could done for refit for several hours.

A gauss rifle might be out of commission for a few days.

A CER large laser would be gone for a week.

A CER PPC would be gone for a week and a few days.

This wouldn't be the ultimate fix as eventually you probably could get so much crap you have PPCs coming out your *** and you can just bolt new ones on, but it's better than nothing.

Nah, it's not better than nothing, because mechanics that encourage people to not play your game are bad mechanics. If I want to try out a new refit on my mech, and the game told me "You can't use this mech for a week" I would probably not play MWO anymore. Mechlabing new loadouts for you mech just to try them out is part of the fun, and if there is a limiter on it that says, "Sorry, you used rare stuff to make this mech, so you don't get to play for a while," then the game is basically flipping me off for experimenting.

If all the gear options the devs give are balanced, then there is no problem with allowing players to customize to their hearts content. Example: IS double heatsinks are not strictly better than normal heatsinks. They come with a tradeoff. (they take up more space)
So any amount of customization with IS tech is fine, because IS tech is all balanced against eachother.


Now, I can already hear people saying "But clan double heatsinks are strictly better than normal heatsinks"
Yes, but clan tech doesn't need to be balanced with IS tech as long as you only let clan players use clan tech. If only clan players can use clan tech, then you can balance the technologically superior team with asymetric team sizes. (aka: Clan gets 10 people, IS gets 12)

[Frostiken]

Quote

Mechlabing new loadouts for you mech just to try them out is part of the fun, and if there is a limiter on it that says, "Sorry, you used rare stuff to make this mech, so you don't get to play for a while," then the game is basically flipping me off for experimenting.

Thing is, I'm one of those weirdos who'd rather not have a Mechlab at all

Does more harm than good, IMO.

[Randalf Yorgen]

There are other ways of keeping people from building up too much cash. In MW4 Mercs for example, it cost you to start a mission, "Drop Fee" usually a few hundred thousand C-bills. Other things that could happen will be things like Varriable Mechanincs. You can ask Joe Mech who is a C class mechanic to come and fix your ride. He can fix your armor and basic weapons load but that's it and it will only cost you a few bucks. You could ask if Mike the mechanic can come or you might have to go to him, he can do what Joe does but also can do actuators and internal structure. He may also be able to have a chance to fix any life support/sensor hits you might have taken. However neither Joe or Mike can repair engines. Mike will cost you tripple what Joe costs but does a more thorough job but has a chance to fail on the high end stuff. Then there is Amie, she's one of the best, she can do it all, engines, sensors, life support, jump jets, rumor has it she has even fixed an old Highlander up for the Northwind Highlanders and she got all the old tech working to some degree. You have to go to her as she doesn't make house calls and she charges an arm and a leg but you will get 100% the best repairs and rebuilds you have ever seen.

I guess basically there are as many ideas on how to control how much people make as there are people. lets just wait and see what happens once the game launches.