256 replies to this topic

[Woodstock]

Zureal, on 08 June 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

as much as i love your arguments, there is one major sucky point that seems will be in MWO for me.

You NEVER lose anything.

This is one of the things i always HATED about WoW, and LOVED about EvE online. Losing ment consiquinces, there is a investment of time, hard work, and skill.

Hey

I have always been and still am an advocate for death of ship/mech.

It adds to immersion ... tension ... and makes for better, well thought tactics and game play.

Thats said it is SOOOO not fun when your shiny pimped out Battleship is ganked.

The key here for me will be that there are consequences but those conductances be balanced. We won't lose the mech forever but I hope the costs to repair and refit it be significant enough that we say 'OUCH'. I also hope that when our weapons get destroyed in combat then the repair bill to replace that weapon will be equal to actually buying a new one.

[Renan Ruivo]

"Community Warfare"

Came here expecting to battle forum users in sword combat. Left frustrated.

[wargames]

Woodstock, on 08 June 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Hey

I have always been and still am an advocate for death of ship/mech.

It adds to immersion ... tension ... and makes for better, well thought tactics and game play.

Thats said it is SOOOO not fun when your shiny pimped out Battleship is ganked.

The key here for me will be that there are consequences but those conductances be balanced. We won't lose the mech forever but I hope the costs to repair and refit it be significant enough that we say 'OUCH'. I also hope that when our weapons get destroyed in combat then the repair bill to replace that weapon will be equal to actually buying a new one.

Here is the thing they will have to put in some sort of mechanism for players to gain super ammounts of of cash to make up for the fact that mechs can be lost. I don't think PGI is planning for that.

[Vollstrecker]

The OP has some good points, however I believe a good number of them should not apply to Merc Units. The large, alliance-based factional fighting described in the EvE stories completely and utterly describes the Successor States themselves.

Point #1: The Spoils of War must be worthwhile.
-- I agree with this, however since there is no player-driven economy, it should give the controlling unit access to more resources. Giving them access to things no one else can get would not be the best way of doing it, as we want player skill to be the primary determinant.

Point #2: Create Richer Areas and Poorer Areas
-- I'll agree with this 100%. Traditionally in Battletech, the poorer areas are out toward the Periphery from their respective capitals.

Point #3: Don't Limit Community Growth...etc
-- This is where I state that your suggestion is far better for House units and that Mercenary units should be limited in their numbers. First of all, having a Merc unit that has more personnel than one of the Successor States would not only be immersion-breaking, it kind of defeats the point of the Successor States.
Your outline of a bitter, years long struggle between mega-alliances and such from EvE exemplify the Succession Wars as no other game has to date. You should be making these alliances, plans, and the like with your fellow faction units (and allied mercenary commands). Mercenary units in excess of a regiment are fairly rare in the timeframe we are starting in, and this isn't exactly a sandbox; working within the constraints of the set universe is necessary.
My advice here is to go ahead and cap merc units, and implement the tools necessary to support faction-wide operations for House units and their allied Mercenary commands. Give Mercenaries a little more freedom in their functions and target selection/etc, but the mainstay of military power should be the House units. The beauty of Free-to-Play is that this kind of thing can always be implemented after launch, if need be.

Point #4: Proper Balance of Structured and Unstructured Community Warfare
-- This is more regarding the story related about the highly-placed Defector in EvE, but spying and defectors/etc should not be empowered to do any real damage in any way. Given what we've heard thus far and the lack of a player-driven economy, there won't be much incentive to do anything like this. I'm personally all for keeping the community warfare going, short of griefing.

Point #5: Allow Players to Invest in their Worlds
-- Going to disagree here. This would be perfect for an RPG, but creating unassailable fortresses only serves to stagnate the game. Perhaps adding an automatically accruing economic and loyalty bonus for length of time held would be good, but preparing defenses again takes away from the skill-based nature of the game.

Point #6: Add Some Level of Stability
-- I think this was mostly covered already, but we're mainly reshaping borders here. Merc corps shouldn't be able to assault planets in the middle of hostile territory, you'd need a line of supply/etc unless the game will support a quick "raid" on a planet with no intention of holding it. A quick "loot" run, if you will.


I do believe you have some good ideas, but simply put, they're not for Mercenary Units. Hopefully the game will have the proper support for organizing war on a scale worthy of the Succession Wars, and put the fighting focus on the Houses, like it should be.

[Jordan Kell]

PPC you are totally on point. I hope the Gdev's are reading these posts

[UncleKulikov]

Keeping the territory bonuses mild will help a lot. The advantage can't be to the defender or territory won't shift. Things like cheaper repairs for certain mechs of a certain loyalty level and "make life easier" changes like that will give enough reason to control territory, without hampering attacking units chances drastically.

[Draxern]

Vollstrecker, on 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Give Mercenaries a little more freedom in their functions and target selection/etc, but the mainstay of military power should be the House units. The beauty of Free-to-Play is that this kind of thing can always be implemented after launch, if need be.

100% aggree with the above post as i have always felt that mechwarrior should be about the house struggles and later on the clans. With merc units playing a different role of serveing the houses.

[Arakkis]

Great OP.

I registered here just to say that I'm dying for an alternative sandbox to EVE Online. There have been no sandbox sci-fi games that have come close to capturing the storylines that EVE has generated. Please make at least a portion of the game player generated content.

[UBCslayer]

Wow....probably the most interesting thread I`ve read through on these boards so far. As an English teacher myself, I can appreciate how well written the OP is, and as a BT fan I can appreciate how good the content is. If the Devs manage to get half of this stuff in the game it promises to blow the doors off!

[BigPuma]

Vollstrecker, on 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

I do believe you have some good ideas, but simply put, they're not for Mercenary Units. Hopefully the game will have the proper support for organizing war on a scale worthy of the Succession Wars, and put the fighting focus on the Houses, like it should be.

I think, that pretty much brings it up to the point.

Thing is that I doubt they will allow for completely player driven house commands, I wager there might be the opportunity to get some kind of influence, but never to run the whole faction on your own. And that's ok with me.

[Zureal]

Vollstrecker, on 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Point #3: Don't Limit Community Growth...etc
-- This is where I state that your suggestion is far better for House units and that Mercenary units should be limited in their numbers. First of all, having a Merc unit that has more personnel than one of the Successor States would not only be immersion-breaking, it kind of defeats the point of the Successor States.
Your outline of a bitter, years long struggle between mega-alliances and such from EvE exemplify the Succession Wars as no other game has to date. You should be making these alliances, plans, and the like with your fellow faction units (and allied mercenary commands). Mercenary units in excess of a regiment are fairly rare in the timeframe we are starting in, and this isn't exactly a sandbox; working within the constraints of the set universe is necessary.
My advice here is to go ahead and cap merc units, and implement the tools necessary to support faction-wide operations for House units and their allied Mercenary commands. Give Mercenaries a little more freedom in their functions and target selection/etc, but the mainstay of military power should be the House units. The beauty of Free-to-Play is that this kind of thing can always be implemented after launch, if need be.

God i hope they doint cap merc units. I say if a merc unit can be successfull enough to have multiple regiments, then have at it!

secondly, i doint always wana be fighting the great houses, what if i wana fight the prephery nations? or a indipendint world? or go pirate hunting? or just go blow up someones warehouse cuz some guy offered me enough money to do it on planet X!

[UncleKulikov]

Giving bonuses for territory control that take effect after the battle, like lowered repair costs and cheaper loadout switching would give an attractive bonus that has 0 effect inside each match to preserve fairness.

[Zureal]

just watched this, but you should skip to 55:40 to 57:05 this basicaly says what i want there to be in MWO. just this small part of what he is talking about. As he talkes about it, i want it more and more in MWO. What he says applies to most every game so doint think im talking about EvE when i send you here. What he says applies just as much to MWO

Edited by Zureal, 09 June 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Doubleumc, on 08 June 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Remember that merc companies cannot ply their trade on every world. There are core worlds that are managed by the dev team and cannot be altered by anyone -- I don't know how many there will be but don't expect to see mercs mucking about with, say, Luthien. Faction worlds which as the name implies is owned by a faction. Factions can fight over these, and presumably mercs can be contracted out to help with an assault or garrison. These are probably the majority of worlds considered part of the Inner Sphere.

Finally there are "border" worlds, which actually can be occupied solely by a merc company with no faction affiliation. I sincerely doubt there is any danger of a faction being "taken over" by mercs. One day you'll look at the star map and your eye will glance at the Periphery nearest your faction. You'll grunt in a minor glimmer of interest -- several stars have changed color -- but then the moment passes and you turn back to the important matter at hand, smashing those dastardly Mariks/Davions/whathaveyou.

Actually I think you will find those border worlds are still faction worlds. The Houses are just using Mercs instead of house units to take and hold them. They will still be under the overall control of the Houses as far as the map goes. I mean who do you think is putting the contracts up for the mercs?

[Mechpro]

Will we be able to rent servers from you or have access to practice servers? I'd like to be able to hold practice sessions with my teammates to go over strategies, study map, etc.. During the MW4 days I loved being able to host a server and practice for league matches or other similar matches We also held team competitions, played inter-team tournaments and much more. The multiplayer was by far my favorite aspect MW4. I developed great bonds with the people I spent hours a day practicing for team matches etc..

[Kaboodle]

Without reading all the replies, but reading the original post fully, he missed one major point that bears remembering. Put a limit on how much of the "map" one group can hold, and keep it realistically small. I've seen far too many games where one guild/clan/group gets a large influx of players, and controls the entire map, with no chance for any other group to even control the tiniest bit.

There are a few ways this is doable, although the most obvious is a "hard" numerical limit. This is not always the best way, albeit it being the easiest. But some sort of limit so that the "top group" doesn't control every controllable point is needed.

[DerMaulwurf]

So the basic suggestion is to struggle with EVE over who gets the bigger share of the smallest player base in the MMO world?

The hardcore sandbox crowd sustains exactly one game. A drop in an ocean compared to the full world of online games.

Edited by DerMaulwurf, 09 June 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[ShoveI]

Kudos to the OP for the well thought out post! I'll try to play devil's advocate on some of the topics you've brought up, bearing in mind that I have played neither Eve nor WoT and really know nothing about either game, but, I have scoured and read most every thread about what the devs' vision of what they want MWO to be.

Lesson #1 - I agree with you on this point with Cbill, loyalty points, map visibility, small (say 1-5%) discounts on repairs, but your use of the term "special" mods and mechs is a little worrisome. I can easily see this turning into a flame war about tactical advantage if done wrong. Last I heard they were working on achievements being available post launch sometime, that could be a good solution for some of it as well. On a side note, money for the cash shop should be very rarely given out during game play, if it's given out for everyday gameplay it WILL BE manipulated in some way, shape, or form.

Lesson #2 - Good idea as well but limitations will have to be put into place on how much each merc can hold and how often they can try. In my experience, if given the option, the larger guilds will take everything they can no matter how "poor" the incentive. Often relying on their superior numbers to hold it all and just outlast any attempts to take it over or use their numbers to retake it if lost. Coordinating actual combat times for planetary capture between mercs could also prove inefficient. Merc X owns a planet so they keep stalling in the hopes that merc y just gives up and tries for another planet is just one example.

Lesson #3 - Although the concept of this sounds good, I'm just not sure a single massive merc group is going to be a powerhouse in the ways you think it's going to be for MWO. MWO will not have a perpetual universe that any one unit can dominate and control, canon won't allow it. Maybe down the road if they speed up the timeline it will be a valid option but with status quo it won't. I agree in the sense that you want to be able to fight alongside with your friends and that's how it should be, but at a certain point I think it will get to the point, "Hey we have the biggest merc group in MWO, even bigger than some of the houses!" But at what cost? If everyone is your friend, then who will be your enemy? I, for one would rather be in that merc group of 24 players that can 9 times out of 10 beat that merc group that has 500 members.

Lesson #4 - This discussion has been raised many times over in one form or another on the forums. How close is MWO going to stick to canon is what it eventually boils down to. This won't be a truly sandbox kind of game, otherwise they will have to do a reset eventually when one house, clan or merc takes over the entire IS. They're going to release MWO as a minimum viable product to begin with, but I believe post launch they are wanting to eventually incorporate more of a meta game strategy to warfare as well. I would love to see interplanetary supply lines and be able to capture and hold enemy planets with pre-determined force parameters for offense and defense, but that is a ways off for now.

Lesson #5 - I believe a lot of people here eventually want something like that in some form, again, how close to canon they remain will be the base for any restrictions placed. That's one of the best things about BTU fluff is that there is room for wiggling around in, but what you're proposing is very very rare for merc groups to accomplish in any degree. Side note, one of the easiest ways to lose players is to have them pour everything they earn into their "world" and then lose months, if not years of work overnight just because someone else felt like taking it on a whim.

Lesson #6 - I remember reading that contracts will be controlled by the devs (most likely some sort of program) at launch and further down the road possibly by higher level house members. Other than that the devs haven't given us much in the way of details about bidding and contracts.

TLDR: You bring up many good and interesting points and certainly a lot for the devs to think about. I would love for a lot, though not all, of your ideas to be implemented! I've tried to play devil's advocate here and not sure my thoughts came out exactly right given the time of this writing and the need for sleep It sounds like you want MWO to be a sandbox mechgame where the biggest (and best?) can rule the universe. That would make for a great game and I would be all for trying it but I don't think MWO will be that game and still be able to stick to its roots and canon in the BT universe timeline.

[Kaboodle]

Vollstrecker, on 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Point #5: Allow Players to Invest in their Worlds
-- Going to disagree here. This would be perfect for an RPG, but creating unassailable fortresses only serves to stagnate the game. Perhaps adding an automatically accruing economic and loyalty bonus for length of time held would be good, but preparing defenses again takes away from the skill-based nature of the game.

For launch? Sure defenses don't make too much sense, but possibly as a completely different gametype later, an "Assault" Mode perhaps, where there is actually a defending team with a base, and base assetts, is completely doable. Keep in mind bases are usually stationed with a fixed number of units, that the attacking team would know (approximately) beforehand and be able to deploy more units to even out the defensive position bonus to a degree.

[FaustianQ]

I'd give applause for the OP but that has been done enough and I support as much as would work within the MWO framework, so I'll just move on with being sad I must fight goons, as I am aligned with House Davion.

Why you pick space communists instead of space vikings D:! You'll make me switch to the FRR to get my dose of clanner tears, won't you?

Hail NDP, Hail SGLE, glorious puppeteers and masters of Europe!