71 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 06 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

My ballistic preference is the UAC5, but tends to get me killed when I try to keep firing. I have not ruled out AC2s or AC5s for my usage. AC20 obviously gets special consideration where available though. I have kinda "found my own lostech" by rediscovering AC10s in place of 2 AC5s though.


That is the best I can do as a suggestion:
WVR-6R

If you really need to fill that energy hardpoint with the "backup laser" or TAG:
WVR-6R

Removing FF and downgrading the engine is there. I can't say this will get any better. The Shadowhawk-2H is far more flexible, and can actually be remade into a sub-version of the Shadowhawk-5M (the classic 1 PPC+2AC5 build).

With the 6R, I'm not even sure attempting anything resembling the 2H would even be a considerable improvement. It kinda does need a 3rd ballistic hardpoint or 4th missile hardpoint or something.



The latter is likely the case.



Doing analysis post-nerf makes more sense, but I would get a "false sense" of how awesome/epic it was (it easily rose to the top of my list). Right now, I'm trying to get "readjusted" since I'm not used to arm articulation and the low arms (coming from a Highlander, arm lock while shooting in the air is mandatory). Before getting the basics, it drives very similarly to my Highlander-732 (which after that nerf, it's almost Atlas-like) so I'm thinking eliting it would help out. I usually build most mechs with 2 JJs, but considering the JJ nerf AND that the arms are low (meaning, I would consume more fuel to reach the firing height), I'm working on getting the 3rd JJ (making more sacrifices as is). I'll need more lab time with the rest. I am starting with the 9S.

I think it's kinda ironic that the Victor nerf is actually hampering the Victor trial mech (why buy it if it twists as a Highlander/Atlas?) For PGI's own sake, they need to take back some of that nerf, because it isn't gonna get their trial mech sold.

This is still a work in progress. :-/

I know streaks are the 'right' thing to do, but they leave me cold. Sure, they're great for deterring light mechs, but I build my robots to take on mechs bigger than them, not smaller, operating on the theory that most people are driving heavier things than me. Besides, the AC10 that I have is more than enough to discourage overcurious Spiders and Jenners. I dropped my AC10 from the HBK-4H that it comes stock on, but everything else I've ever used it on, it's been great. The AC10 is hugely underrated, but it's understandable when the AC20 is just a few tons more.

It's funny you should mention the Victor twisting like an Atlas: https://docs.google....t#gid=458819393

Do you think that PGI actually wants to sell trial mechs? The company that released the HBK-4P(c) the same patch as ghost heat, the CTF-3D(c) with one jumpjet the same patch that got nerfed, and now the VTR-9S(c) just as they nerf the only thing that made the Victor good, its agility? I hadn't noticed until now, but I am betting that they intentionally release mechs that were just broken by their changes after they do so in order to gather user metrics on how the change worked. Or maybe I'm giving Paul too much credit.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 06 April 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

I know streaks are the 'right' thing to do, but they leave me cold. Sure, they're great for deterring light mechs, but I build my robots to take on mechs bigger than them, not smaller, operating on the theory that most people are driving heavier things than me. Besides, the AC10 that I have is more than enough to discourage overcurious Spiders and Jenners. I dropped my AC10 from the HBK-4H that it comes stock on, but everything else I've ever used it on, it's been great. The AC10 is hugely underrated, but it's understandable when the AC20 is just a few tons more.

I was trying to put on some sort of SRM version, only to realize it's harder to do with Artemis... so I've only come up with this..
WVR-6R

Quote

It's funny you should mention the Victor twisting like an Atlas: https://docs.google....t#gid=458819393

Yea... I've read those threads. I'm kinda leaning that the overnerf was bad.

Quote

Do you think that PGI actually wants to sell trial mechs? The company that released the HBK-4P(c) the same patch as ghost heat, the CTF-3D(c) with one jumpjet the same patch that got nerfed, and now the VTR-9S(c) just as they nerf the only thing that made the Victor good, its agility? I hadn't noticed until now, but I am betting that they intentionally release mechs that were just broken by their changes after they do so in order to gather user metrics on how the change worked. Or maybe I'm giving Paul too much credit.

I like the idea that occasionally the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 06 April 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I was trying to put on some sort of SRM version, only to realize it's harder to do with Artemis... so I've only come up with this..
WVR-6R

Yea... I've read those threads. I'm kinda leaning that the overnerf was bad

I like the idea that occasionally the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Yeah, artemis tends to kill builds with four or more launchers. As a tradeoff, I usually cut one ton of ammo as well to give myself a little longer range (in this case filled by the AC10) so I'm still dealing damage as I close to ~100-150m, where the triple six pack is (or rather, is supposed to be) effective without artemis.

I don't think the nerf itself was bad, but more that the Victor got nerfed and no other assaults did.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 07 April 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't think the nerf itself was bad, but more that the Victor got nerfed and no other assaults did.

Did you miss my complaint about the Highlander nerf?

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 07 April 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Did you miss my complaint about the Highlander nerf?

Okay, that's fair. I have never run a non-trial Highlander, so I couldn't say. But I can sort of justify the highlander being less mobile since it's ten tons heavier; the Victor's mobility is all it has going for it.

[Deathlike]

So, I was thinking about doing the update this week... I have not finished mastering the Victors (I have them all elited), but my opinion won't change and I need to accelerate my process to test out the Thunderbolt giveaway this upcoming (Easter) weekend and the future C-bill release of the 2 Shadowhawk variants (2D and 2H). Hopefully some bugs were corrected at some point... so.. onto the content!


Victor (VTR):
Best variant: DS (Dragon Slayer) or 9S
Worst variant: 9B or 9K
Interesting variant: All
Best feature: Simply a very mobile Assault, Arm Articulation for all weapons that need it, arm AC20 for 9S/9B
Worst feature: Generally "low firing arms" and arm dependency
Major Changes: JJ nerf, severe torso twist nerf

Now, I do believe it was somewhat of a bad time to get them, after the major torso twist nerf. However, I had a "crisis of faith" with my Highlander, so I had to experiment with the Victor. It is something of a journey.

If someone remembered the goof with the man that had a personal 19 SHS wanted to make a reference to the Victor... but spat out Trebuchet. The only commonality with the mechs is that the primary weapons were in the arms... and they are both JJ capable mechs... but the similarities end there.

Victors are well known to use XL engines... but the side torso are actually pretty slim. People made reference to the Centurion and they are correct... large arms, thin side torsos... together with JJs (sadly, Cents don't have them) made the Victor an extraordinarily mobile platform. With that said... they are a terrible missile platform as the focus is direct fire. At least the Highlander has the opportunity to do some decent missile boating... so the Victors are limited to short range missiles.

I think the irony here was that I started off with the 9S, as that was the new trial mech on rotation. I'm not sure it is even a good design, but mostly the torso twist nerf IMO will affect its sales. While I feel that the torso twisting is still "better" than the Atlas (this is a subjective comparison after all), it's still also better than the Highlander-732 that I still use that also got its own nerf.

Then again, I'm using 325XLs on the VIctors... whereas I last recall using the Highlander with a 325 and 300 engine, so it's hard to put into context (plus, it's been a while since using the Atlas).

Smurfy does indicate that the 9S's 3rd missile tube to be 2, so Streaks or even the lowly SRM2 would be optimal. Either way, the extra missile hardpoint is more useful if you need to fight in short range, particularly vs lights. However, the torso twist nerf is a bit too heavy handed, as a -15% torso twist nerf (5% diff) would be good enough as 10% may be too little since the engine options are fairly high.

My initial mistake on the 9B was to take advantage of the dakka arm. I know you could just forgo that with an AC20 (this and the 9S can use an AC20 on the arm WITH articulation) but I had a realization that the arm movement was originally meant to address each's arm articulation, but that would somewhat "break convergence" as the AC20 arm wouldn't be able to move, so a compromise was made to make it half as effective. Still, 10 degrees is significant.

Although the recent AC2 and AC5/UAC5 nerf has come to pass, the role of the AC2 has diminished more and quite unnecessarily IMO. I don't want to keep reiterating this, but the AC2 was always hot BEFORE ghost heat... and now that its secondary role has been neutered (long range supression), it's hard to recommend it as much given that an AC5 would get you further whenever you could spare the tonnage and crits. It's probably fallen towards the LPL level of usefulness... a small niche.

Why would this matter? Well, it doesn't. It reminds of the "Admiral Ackbar" joke... "it's a trap". It is a mistake to use this as a dakkamech, as I believe the Banshee is a better Assault platform (Jager is the best heavy platform, not the Cataphract-4X). Compared to something like the Dragon-5N, where it has massive arm articulation, the Victor's arm articulation is not significant enough to "look away and dakka".

The 9K is an interesting thing. I would not say that it was "intentionally crippled" but adding more JJs to a Victor is counterproductive... that and it seems to need 3 JJs minimum to allow a good window to shoot from. I'd rather have the 2nd ballistic hardpoint back on the mech instead of the JJs... this will be explained further. In any case, the lack of the AC20 arm means it has an increased arm articulation, so if there was a reason to use Gauss, this is an option. Otherwise, it doesn't really feel like it has that much of a role, unless you prefer to fit in 3 Large Lasers into the arm.

Now, although I don't have access to the DS, but I will need to explain a few issues with the mech, which has nothing to do with "balance" exactly, but moreso some issues surrounding it that makes it desirable and yet constructed in such a way that you get the impression of "it's fixed you goof".

The DS is built very much like a Highlander. Most of its firepower is on the right side (2B on right arm, 2E on right torso). While I think a Highlander is better (better armored, but higher firing points), this particular Victor variant has torso mounts that are higher than the Victor's arms.. which from a meta-poptart standpoint is a very favorable design. It inherits some of the same properties of the 9B, but puts it in a more favorable layout... where it doesn't have an AC20 arm (thank goodness it doesn't), it does reclaim the 2nd Ballistic/Dakka hardpoint. It really makes the 9B look like garbage by comparison.

I won't say it is P2W, but it reminds me of the Cent-AH vs Yen Lo Wang discussions, and it does make you think a little. I could care less about the extra 2 JJs the 9B has really... which makes the 9B the "black sheep" of the Victors.

I'm kinda convinced that the Victors are not for me, because of the lower firing points (the DS suffers less from that by design) and I'll probably end up keeping the Highlander. If some of the torso twist nerf was reduced, it would make it a better brawling. It's OK for brawling, but it's only as good as the Atlas (which, brawling used to happen with SRMs).

With that said, I hopefully will bring you an update about the upcoming Thunderbolt/Tbolt-9S and the Shadowhawk-2K and 2D...

Oh... and SRM KILL! The recent change last patch combined with changes in a future patch should allow SRMs to be viable, which gave me some time to experiment... and it's much better than I had anticipated.

[Deathlike]

I'll give an update about the Shadowhawks later, since I'm still grinding them out (almost elited out at the moment). The experience though is what I expected and yet did not expect at the same time.

So, here's the abbreviated review over the "previously free" Thunderbolt-9S.

Thunderbolt TDR-9S
Best Feature: Best "hybird" creation of a 5S and 5SS. Dual AMS is awesome.
Worst Feature: Torso twist reduction
Is it any good?: "Only if you liked the other non-JJ Tbolts."

Like riding a bicycle... having loved and driven the 5SS and loved that the most (over the rest of the Tbolts), I wasn't too far removed from playing it like that, although with obvious differences. While you can "recreate" a version of a 5SS or 5S build, it's not entirely as good... unless you can handle the torso twist reduction.

Now while the 9S inherits the benefits of the 5SS's RT, the Thunderbolt in general DOES NOT have the torso twist that the Hunchback has. I may have not mentioned this before, but the Tbolt is actually VERY POOR at shooting stuff that's directly above and below it. I'm sure that I've mentioned before that a torso twist pitch buff is required... the thing is like many mechs that it's fine to face targets that are at level... more or less. It's fine for everything else... but yea...

Of course... you COULD put in all your weapons in the arms, but would that be good? The arm is pretty large, but more importantly... pretty low from a firing standpoint.

There IS an advantage that the 9S does have over the 5S... the ability to put your energy backup in "almost even" sections. The 5S gravely suffers from this. I guess while you could use this is an opportunity to use missiles, adding the missile rack adds to your hitbox profile... and the Tbolt isn't really a missile boat of worthwhile notoriety.

Just an aside... I think the Tbolt like Hunchback are mechs that rarely get legged, despite having fairly hittable legs...

This variant is simply the middle ground between the 5S and 5SS, so if you hate either varient, the 9S will allow you to get mastery w/o suffering from the other variant faults (9SE still being the "best" of the bunch). It's good for options if you want to explore Tbolts... but otherwise it doesn't make the Tbolts great.

Arguably, the 5SS brings dual AMS to a reasonable mass (unless, you don't want the Tbolt, which is understandable).. the other options seem kinda silly:
Atlas-K = Worst Atlas, undeniably.
Stalker-5S = 3F or Misery is still better.
Firestarter-S = You'll be overheating more than worrying about missiles.
Locust-3M = Good luck with that, similar to the Firestarter-S, but in a worse position IMO.
Jester = You have to actually spend MC to get it, but I like the Quickdraw-5K more.

It's the only dual AMS mech that I've actually bothered to put dual AMS on (for lack of better alternative options).

I'll update everyone about what I think about the Shadowhawk-2K and 2D soon.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 April 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

Here's an update... Since Double XP weekend is upon us soon, I have more or less decided on my mech of choice (unless someone else convinces me otherwise, which is highly unlikely) and that is the Kintaro.

So, now here's my impressions of the new Shadowhawk additions...

Shadowhawk SHD-2D
Best Feature: More energy, slightly more options.
Worst Feature: Biased left side
Is it any good?: Heck yea

Although I think the 2D2 is the better overall "balanced mech", the 2D is not a shabby variant. My mech building philosophy tends to like balance in many asymmetrical builds, so that focusing on one side doesn't mean you become completely useless if that side is taken out. On the other hand, if you know you have an unbalanced mech, it isn't the end of the world either... if you can torso twist. The mech is very biased to the left side, and once you take advantage of that, you can make the right arm a very manageable shield arm. It's not bad at all and in fact is overall better than the 2H Shadowhawk (the dakka Shadowhawk) if you are unable to maximize on the dakka. It's kinda hard to go wrong with this variant.

Some builds of this variant almost reminds me of the classic Hunchback-4G builds.... which kinda makes me a little sad since variant allows for quite a bit of flexibility...


Shadowhawk SHD-2K
Best Feature: Side torso oriented weapons
Worst Feature: Lack of arm articulated weapons makes it less viable for it to be an LRM boat.
Is it any good?: Duh yes.

What I learned from the Griffin-3M that having a torso energy point and a arm energy point in opposite sides is not a bad thing as optimizing for the range of motion for certain weapons is helpful... lasers in the arm, PPCs in the torso. It never ceases to be amazing. Too bad the 2K doesn't have it built like that, but I suspect people will build for its "natural hardpoint locations". However, the centralized torso missile hardpoints make for a reminder of the once proud Centurion-A... which unfortunately kinda renders that a bit obsolete. It does bring back the nostalgia though...

That's all for now. Maybe the Kintaro this time around (post-hitbox buff) isn't going to suck so badly...

[Deathlike]

While in my heart, I'd like to write a sad commentary, I'll just get to the point about the Kintaro. It was an initially frustrating double XP weekend which slowly became something more tolerable as I had to "change my principles" of mech building to create some... tolerable builds. I wish I spent more time brawling than labbing though...

Kintaro (KTO):
Best variant: 18 or 19 (depends on the role)
Worst variant: GB
Interesting variant: 20
Best feature: LRMs, LRMs, and LRMs. That's it.
Worst feature: Too large for 55 tons, low arms, and extraordinarily limited in build variety.
Major Changes: Mediums "buffs", hitbox "improvements", and any buffs that involve LRMs.

I went into this thinking that I could get away with just using PPCs, Streaks, and SRMs... mainly because I would need to be relatively mobile to make stuff happen (get in and out), but that was never meant to be. There are three things that have to be explained before getting into the details...

1) Poor Scaling - The Kintaro is fat. Yes, I said it. I nicknamed it the "Jolly Boy" and made references to the "Coretaro" for having terrible hitboxes. Even despite the fix (which has helped it a bit), it was really easy to core. If you make a mech the size of a Jager, but keep the armor equivalent to a Shadowhawk... bad things tend to happen. What makes this troubling is that despite the reality that this mech is rarely fielded, it's not the threat that I thought it would be, even as a Streaktaro vs Lights. It's essentially INEXCUSABLE that the first 55 tonner is essentially DOA and still mainly ineffective due to being "large" and "not in charge". This is what would make the Griffin stay into power as the medium mech missile boat of choice...

2) Low Arms - From the mechlab, you would think the arms would kinda be able to clear stuff for PPCs, since it would "make sense" given the hitboxes as that would alleviate some of the fire it tends to take (pinpoint damage is better to allow one to minimize exposure). The problem... the arms are just low enough to give you the "Atlas effect". Since using LRMs is generally the most optimal thing you can use on the Kintaro, you would find that lasers happen to be the optimal choice. Sadly, the arms inherit one of the bigger problems that the Dragon faces... artillery strikes that blow off the arms. Notice that most of the weapons are in the arms? Well, it's like a Trebuchet redux, but actually worse... at least some Trebuchet variants have JJs. Kintaros which they could fart into the atmosphere.

3) Mech Can't Really Brawl - I know the Golden Boy's loadout would suggest that this mech would be the "ideal brawler", but that is far from what it can do. Most of it has to do with mostly in point #1, and to a lesser extent, point #2... it doesn't have the kind of uptime (high TTK) that something like a Griffin or Shadowhawk faces... and that has less to do with the lack of JJs (although, it is a factor in reducing TTK)... but it's unfortunately not doing anything that some other mech can do better. Brawling requires some serious agility, which even if you give it a large engine, it's simply not that "graceful" for lack of a better term. Partly I guess you could put some blame on the terrain movement code, but this is compounded by its large size. It's OK being large if you can take the punishment, but... you're relying on the armor limits for a 55 tonner.

With all of that said, it's pretty sad that the Kintaro is limited, so I did rebuild everything somewhere along the line to make the most of out of it.. and it worked "better". Too bad...

The KTO-18 is the natural missile boat... very similar to something like the Griffin-3M. I guess it is a nice niche to have to be able to use TAG and have 5 missile hardpoints like the Stalker-5M, but yet be a rather mediocre missile platform.

Now, while I'll probably never own a Golden Boy, the act of missile boating wouldn't hurt the fact that the engine choices are limited, but on the other hand makes this a very mediocre, if not a bad platform for being a Streaktaro. However, it is noted that the mech has one of its missile hardpoints placed in its CT, thus limiting its missile potential a bit... not that it matters that much, but kinda ironically limits the options as they were.

I believe the KTO-19 is probably the "middling" of the missile platforms as you can put enough energy based firepower for "defense", but actually being able to do some damage when LRMs are not favorable. Building a long range exclusive mech doesn't have to have real downsides, but yet it's oddly satisfying. I don't know why that is... but maybe I decided this was the nicest variant of the bunch.

Although I usually vouch for leaning to one side in certain mechs, the KTO-20 is not one of them. The left arm (and torso) is pretty much good for one missile rack, so losing that side doesn't hurt. On the other hand, the size of the mech compared to something like the Shadowhawk or Griffin doesn't really lend to making it a valid option to tank on one side. If anything, it may best remind one of the Centurion-AL, except the missile racks are leaning towards one side. At least in defense of the AL, you have one side with lasers and the other side with missiles, allowing you to PROPERLY distribution damage. For the Kintaro, it's like running some depraved version of the Griffin-1N... an "all or nothing" type of deal, w/o the "grace" of the Griffin (as described earlier).

It's actually kind of sad really.

Anyways, I did brawl with the KTO-20 at the end of the run, but not w/o some actual troubles. It was something to be "erased from my memory" similar to the Awesome...

It actually sucks being the one-trick pony mech, because at least the other "one trick pony mechs" excel at something and then some. The Kintaro is literally "go long" or "please exercise".

I'm not sure what mech to go next, but I'm waiting on the Vindicator or something interesting as the next mech, possibly followed by the Wolverine. It will depend greatly on my C-Bill stash (I'll get to be as "Rich as Blake" and still be poor), so things could possibly change. We'll see.

[Deathlike]

This is a small update but it's worth getting off my chest.

Recently the Trebuchet got a facelift (for a lack of a better term of saying that they got dynamic hardpoint visuals). While the change is nice, of course it was an opportunity to sell a hero for that mech. I'll quickly give it a mention, but I think the most important result of this change is that the multiple missile tube increases... so I'll describe it as part of my "reanalysis".

The sad part though... I did decide to grind the worst Trebuchet Failbucket of the group... the 5N.


Trebuchet TBT-5N
Best Feature: Best torso twist and missile hardpoint setup over the newly revised 7K.
Worst Feature: It manages to be worse than the Kintaro-20, if not the most inferior Trebuchet.
Is it any good?: How does worst 50 tonner variant sound to you?

Back in my review/analysis of the Trebuchet, my first and foremost comment is that the Trebuchet benefits greatly from LRMs. Since I have not touched LRMs at that time, it skewed my overview of the mech. Now having run more LRM boats after the LRM buff, I'm fortunately able to bring a better perspective of that matter.

I am oddly convinced that the likelihood that a mech is built to be a missile boat, it tends to be "oversized"... like the Kintaro and Awesome. Yet we will still have exceptions like the Stalker (undersized) and Quickdraw (tube configuration favors SRM brawling). It's almost "the counter" for a mech for being a primary missile boat design. This is sad, and I doubt this would change.

Anyways, the configuration of this mech is kinda similar to the 3C, with the exception of the CT hardpoint on the 3C being semi-favorable. However, other things have changed.

The 5J which I have this love-hate relationship with... I think that the low JJ height issue can be corrected easily with the 3rd JJ (I have that design in mind for the next medium tourney).

The 7M's major deficiency was corrected... changing that NARC missile tube hardpoint into a full fledged one... similar to the Trebuchet hero. The 7M is finally the non-hero missile boat of the 50 ton bracket. That's not saying much, since the Trebuchet is still the worst 50 ton mech in that bracket... even WITH jump jets.

I'm pretty sure the Trebuchet hero is modeled after the Griffin-3M for the most part, but with "somewhat more optimal hardpoints" as the energy is in both arms. However, the value of the torso energy hardpoint is a LOT more valuable on the 3M given that the large arms of the Trebuchet is more of a detriment, especially when you consider scaling issues. If you don't mind a Griffin-3M-ish-like 50-ton mech that has "limited" range (torso twist) and gets you a little more money... then be my guest. The 3M is a far superior missile boat based on hardpoint placement... even when the missile torso contains everything. Superior torso twist can distribute damage better.

The highly regarded 7K got a major boost... swapping out the limited 2-tube missile arm for "almost" full utility missile racks (the 2nd missile rack has a 15 tube max limit). Of course, if you're using it to dish missiles, you're nuts. Having TAG on the arm is imperative to having an effective missile boat as you don't always want to expose your torso at all times just trying to keep the TAG on target.

So, while the 5N "seems" like it has some potential... it is ironically automatically negated by the presence of a 55-ton Kintaro-20. That's all you need to know sadly.

What more does one have to say? I'm not sure how one would fix the 5N, but "removing" the limited arm motion would help...

Oh well, that is my failbucket update. I don't know what else to say when the Kintaro is a better missile boat platform than the ground bound Trebuchets...

Hopefully some interesting mech comes on the horizon...

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

Here's a long (and probably not awaited update). So the Clan Mechs are here and while I have no interest in acquiring them with real money (I thought the Phoenix Pack were a fairer deal TBH), it will be a while until the clan mechs I have interest in playing are released and while I have a small list left... I swear I need an inordinate amount of C-bills to acquire them... so there is some grinding to be had... and the mechs on the list are pretty pricy at this point, so unless they go on sale for C-bills soon (only 2 C-bills sales to date, in which the Atlas-D was prominent in both sales), it isn't happening for a bit. I may go with variants I have not grinded yet (like the Stalker-4N, but there's no change to it yet to make it worth grinding).

With that said, I've finally "completed" all the IS medium mechs in total (I think I've not done the BJ-1DC and the Cicada-3C, for various reasons) and have already grinded out all the Lights minus the Locust (there's no compelling reason to really)... and while it was cheaper to do... it's usually a fun time trying to figure them all out. Although.. I didn't end up having a winning K-D ratio... which either speaks to my brief hiatus, or that the Wolverines are not as good as the Griffins in the Saber package. Go figure.

I'm still waiting on the Vindicator though... that should be interesting... hopefully.

So, without further interruptions... let's talk Wolverines!

Wolverine (WVR):
Best variant: 7K
Worst variant: 6R
Interesting variant: 6K or 6R
Best feature: Gaining the best benefits of the Hunchback in terms of torso twist and JJs like the Griffin, it is crazily mobile.
Worst feature: Limited variation... worse than some of the bad Griffin and Shadowhawk variants.
Major Changes: Mediums "buffs", SRMs working, and any sort of LRM buffs.

Back when the Saber Pack was released... soon after seeing Wolverines were fielded... they seem to have gone the way of the dodo. There is a lot of things that make the Wolverine pretty sweet, but on the other hand they have been "cursed" (for a lack of a better term) with poorer hardpoints than the equivalent 55 tonner (save for the Kintaro). As I'll explain in detail, I will "expand" on a few things with respect to some of the "cooler" and "older" stuff crossed my mind...

I had projected the 7K to be "the best" variant of the bunch, based on hardpoints. Luckily, that doesn't require a brain surgeon to confirm that... However, it brings to light one thing that doesn't usually get discussed.... the head's energy point.

The Awesome and Hunchback have the same hardpoint and while the former has been used as a missile platform, it carries better than both ground bound mechs... with the Hunchback's torso twist. Inevitably, you realize a TAG in the head is an exceptional spot for a missile boat tool. Too bad it's not so great for other stuff... given the limitations of IS tech.

I found it a lot more fascinating than the Griffin-3M. While I believe the Griffin is the undisputed missile boat medium champion (lots more tubes), I like the 7K in that I have more backup weapons to use IN CASE OF BEING ATTACKED. Missile boats have a poor tendency to be undergunned when challenged, so the 7K fits that bill. While people are thing "hey, I could do the same thing or better with a Kintaro", remember that JJs are pretty damn important in this game. That has more to do with the state of JJs than anything else, so it's worth keeping in mind.

Of course, you could "choose" to run it as a SRM/Streak boat, but there are better options. The good thing is that the missile hardpoints are spread out, so there's no "missile torso" like the Griffin does to be disabled...

The 6K is an interesting beast. The lack of jumpjets pretty much makes this "worse" than a Trebuchet-5J... and that's saying a lot (or not, since I rarely see Trebuchets). It also inherits that "energy arm" like the Griffin-1N... again... you don't have JJs. This doesn't help matters at all.

Arm articulation is awesome... but it actually really sucks when you don't have JJs, since PPCs tend to be written off... and that leads me to what I ended up using.

Lasers... lots of lasers. No pulse necessary (and pulse is not really that useful to me for the tonnage used). Imagine if you had like a "bionic arm"... or it just simply being fused/infused with a light saber. Might as well use the X-men reference... it is an "Adamantium Claw"... well a poor facsimile (it can be shot off, unlike the person that this is technically referencing). Still, it's ridiculous amounts of fun. Now I have to use the cliche that still applies today...

"With great power, comes with great responsibility."

What tends to happen when you use lasers... especially with arm articulation is that there's a great tendency to try to fire them a tad wildly... and at times you are in a poor position to "shoot over" your teammate. While running lots of lasers, I've personally had the misfortune of being directly behind people... probably shouldn't have done that in the first place. The thing is... it is truly hard to get an angle OVER your teammate, w/o actually hitting them in the process. When trying to fire behind cover/terrain like you'd see in Tourmaline, you find lots of spots you didn't want to aim into (like, the wall) and you'd find that you really need to pick your spots when shooting it. Mouse sensitivity plays a lot into lasers, as the "default" setting is waaaay too high for most people to be accurate. Even lowering it a tenth or .2 would increase laser accuracy greatly.

So, I apologize again for ruining backsides with the 6K... it's just hard to control the damned thing.

At least in my mind... it was "practice" for the Clan ER lasers... since they required more duration. Also, you would be surprised how many people literally take damage from lasers. It's more than you'd think... despite the PPC/AC/FLD meta.

Now... let's get to the mech that feels like the Raven-2X or 4X... the mech you have to "get it over with"... the Wolverine-6R. It is essentially a poor man's Shadowhawk-2H... and yet the 2H is better. However, it is better thought in terms of classic mechs we all know and remember.... the Centurion-A, combined with the Centurion-D... and adding JJs.

So, you're probably wonder... is this mech salvageable? Can one make chicken salad out of chicken poop?

I know I don't usually post mechlab builds, but for this one, I will make an exception...
WVR-6R

There were other options... making it a similar missile boat like the 7K, with a backup ballistic not named the MG (which is very hard to put together) or a SRM/Streak boat with some sort of punishing ballistic. Both attempts garnered limited success. The primary issue was always that the ballistic arm was very often shot off, thus invalidating the point of putting in weapons there. I know such a problem occurred with the 6K, but for that mech... YOU HAD NO OTHER OPTION (outside of using the missile hardpoint, which is a fruitless endeavor in my experience). The 6R's focus IS its missile hardpoints, so synergy needs to be maintained as much as possible.

So, somewhere along the line.. during some time on the PTS, I had some discussions about what to do with the 6R... and I'd like to thank Mechwarrior Mousse for the basic idea. I had to "upgrade" it to make it more useful for myself.

In the design I linked, the focus of the mech MOST resembles a Cent-A build (3 ASRM6s) with the Centurion-D (larger engine cap, ballistic arm for 2 MGs). While this isn't as great as the Centurion (Zombie Cents with 2 med lasers are the general norm), the head laser is virtually difficult to remove. The MGs are actually a PERFECT complement to lowering the need for a heavy ballistic, while allowing for a large engine to be fielded. Although I should've considered going this route in the first place, but sometimes it is too often that a mechlab labrat like me overthinks stuff. I wasn't really thrilled with the 2MG idea mind you, but given that the build is forcing you to close on the target... it's optimal.

What's odd and strange is that my ASRM6 accuracy for the moment is 60% (with limited uses, but not statistically significant yet)... while my ASRM4 accuracy is @ 50%. I'll need to do some more testing though, but I wonder if the SRM fixes hurt the smaller SRM volleys more. I know AMS is somewhat of a factor, but the smaller clusters of missiles SHOULD be more effective because of the greater concentration. ASRM6s have a somewhat larger cluster (well, not as bad as non-Artemis launchers). When it hits though... it smashes stuff. This is good news for everyone that loves SRMs (well, you need Artemis anyways).

Well, it's all the info I can share now... and while I'll try to have more content and stuff to speak of soon... I guess it's OK if people ask more questions/inquire about builds and stuff. I may consider doing mechs not on the list (C-bill sale required though) and I don't mind putting some thought into builds and design philosophies and explaining myself.

Still, it is what it is... and it's up to PGI to make things interesting (and not just nerfing and buffing things at random).

I guess the only suggestion needed is that the Wolverine-6K needs a torso twist buff (increase range and/or speed) IMO as the engine cap "increase" is superfluous in making the mech more effective (seriously, the difference between 360 and 375 is a whole lot of tonnage and not much on ROI for making it more useful). The 6R probably needs some buff (another hardpoint for either missile or ballistic would be extraordinarily helpful... probably better for the missile hardpoint though).

I guess... until next time!

Edited by Deathlike, 27 June 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

The C1... I couldn't really find any good way of being it useful with missiles, so I practically made it an energy boat that jumped and it did alright for what I used it for... ERPPCs and LPL. It was alright and it wasn't too shabby either. It would probably still be fine in the current meta. It's probably also a fairly balanced Founders mech (the Jenner-D is still the #1 Founders mech IMO)... but the C1's (and C4's) build diversity is literally linked to the state of missiles which I think is more or less fine now... but can change at any poor balance change's notice.

2 LRM15's, with Tag+bap, Target retention, and range, sesimic.. and 3 MPL's to finish off anything later in match, or lights that get close.. Thing is a total blast.. and pretty darn deadly.. IMO it is the best Cat going, even better than the K2.. which i like, it is just not a C1..


It is funny that you also did not like the raven 2x, that one is my favorite raven too.. i guess everyone has a different opinion

[Deathlike]

JC Daxion, on 27 June 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

2 LRM15's, with Tag+bap, Target retention, and range, sesimic.. and 3 MPL's to finish off anything later in match, or lights that get close.. Thing is a total blast.. and pretty darn deadly.. IMO it is the best Cat going, even better than the K2.. which i like, it is just not a C1..

I kinda liked the C1, but missiles at the time weren't my thing. LRMs now are in a better spot, and I'm probably more amenable to missiles. It was simply "not as good" at that time.

Quote

It is funny that you also did not like the raven 2x, that one is my favorite raven too.. i guess everyone has a different opinion

The Raven-2X primarily suffered from being too slow, as the engine cap then was 245. While 275 is better now, it simply doesn't differentiate from a Jenner-K. That's it's sole weakness. Additionally, I wasn't as good a labrat as I am now.

[Deathlike]

So, I'd like to put up an update.. since I've been meaning to do that for a while.

I'll discuss the Kitfox in the later part of this post, since we're almost 2 months since the Clan Pack release, and it happens to be near the KItfox's 2 week anniversary after its C-bill release... it's something to say at the least.

Since PGI has started to do some challenges for the month and with C-bill sales with regular mechs, it has made revisiting the Awesome a lot more palatable. So, I'll start with discussing the 8V (I have yet to get the 8R, but I figure that'll be a future date for that when there's another tweak to it).

Awesome AWS-8V
Best Feature: "Balanced imbalance"
Worst Feature: "Limited range"
Is it any good?: It's OK

I'm not sure how exactly I can explain the stuff in quotes. I'll try anyways.

The 8V is a strange bird mech, and it's not that bad. I couldn't really settle into a build I'd like, if only because I'd rather reserve a missile based build for something like the 8R. Nevertheless, putting SRMs in that RT is like a godsend. I GET TO BRAWL!!!

The problem with the mech if you're not using any sort of tracking missile is that you have limited ability to shoot stuff as having just 1 arm weapon limits it to something you need for long range... whether it is TAG, ER Large, or a PPC. So, this means that when you engage your target, you will end up spending a bit of facetime with your enemy. This is not desirable for a chassis that suffers from being a big barn door.

Note that while the 9M and PB has a similar issue, the best builds for them IMO (I don't know how many people drive the PB) using the missile hardpoints tend to be streaks (you could use SRM4s I guess) and perhaps when they finally get their models redone that they will be practically better than they are now (particularly the PB). That's probably when the 8R will get a spin...

Now, this test was primarily motivated by the simple fact that the Awesome's easy to core CT was buffed. As a result, more people lean towards stripping the side torsos of weaponry... since they are FAR LARGER than the Victor's side torsos. Since the side torsos didn't get a buff, the Awesome is not a good candidate for XL engines... which in part was due to the hitbox "adjustment" made to them a while back. This will limit them to Atlas-level engines (300 to 350 for practicality). The 9M will still have value and is still arguably the best of the bunch.. but it's a sad disappointment overall... since the Awesome fad ended... but fortunately it went slower than most menial buffs.

Now, here's the real reason for the post.. the Kit Fox... which has been given the "clever" name "Cute Fox". There's something to be said for that...

While I'll try to give info, I will strictly discuss the omnipods than the variants themselves. The whole clan system is based on these omnipods... and the benefit ultimately is that you can "frankenmech" more efficiently than the IS when you speak of their variants. For the purposes of the Kitfox, you can effectively make the Prime variant like any of its other variants and vice versa. There will be exceptions to this rule because the CT has a "fixed omnipod". When it comes to balancing/discussing this stuff, I will be "specific" at some of the omnipods instead of the variant. As such, I'll adjust the format a bit for Clan Mechs, but ultimately I believe it should be fairly obvious (as best as I can) to what I'm referencing.

Kitfox (KFX) [aka Uller]:
Best omnipod: KFX-C Right Arm
Worst omnipod: KFX-S Left Arm, KFX-Prime Right Arm
Interesting omnipod: KFX-S Left+Right Torso, KFX-S Left+Right Leg
Best feature: ECM, incredible firing radius
Worst feature: Slow like a Medium, far easier to hit than a Spider
Major Changes: Clan ERLL/ERPPC nerf

I don't think anyone "expected" a clan mech to get ECM. If it had to be one, this probably seemed alright... as the only ECM JJ capable mech available happens to be the Spider... but they serve completely different roles.

Given the speed of the mech, the only real way to play this is by BEING a support mech... like a medium... which it happens to function closest to. However, it doesn't have the health of one... but it doesn't have to due to the nature of Clan XL. Clan XL is designed to allow a side torso to be blown away, which is very impactful by design. As the mechs get better, the mech becomes a better overall tank... so it makes better sense to leg a mech or core it. Given the hitboxes of most clan mechs, they often times lose their side torsos quite a bit and when you don't lose a side torso, you are probably doing it wrong. It doesn't mean that Clan mechs don't get legged, but in fact it is endorsed for any Clan Light. This fact however makes the Adder/Puma look pretty bad by comparison... and thus rightly nicknamed "Badder".

I personally feel that the state of ECM (as bad and broken as it is) makes the Kitfox-C's right arm a mandatory requirement. While it is possible to function w/o ECM and improve your overall firepower (which can be quite lacking when you make the tradeoff), you do so at the expense of helping your team in terms of missile protection and the cloaking. While the penalty for the arm is "seemingly" significant, for the purposes of a Light mech being piloted as a Medium, it is not a "real penalty".

One of the things about PGI's omnipod design is that there are hardpoints that cannot be changed or moved... and we'll see how that plays down the line. It does make for some interesting but tough build choices as the LT on any Kitfox is usually very bare by design, due to the limited crits.

The Kitfox is only 1 of 3 currently released clan mechs that can put DHS on the legs. This is kinda important because IS DHS can NEVER be put on the legs (unless there's certain TT rules or stuff that can work around that in some future). The simple fact that the engine is under 250, makes it "heat crippled" in a sense, so some of that has to be made up depending on how hot the loadout happens to be.

There is one particular variant of the Kitfox that needs a little exploration and that's the Kitfox-S. Its omnipods are the most interesting... for instance, adding any of the the legs will increase JJ capacity... which is useful for the Prime and D variants that lack them naturally. This however comes at the expense of turning speed... which is something to think about given the natural of "attempting" to balance the omnipods. I believe they will be looked into more, but for now, "it is what it is". A similar thing occurs with the Kitfox-S's side torsos... where you can add to JJ capacity, but only 1 instead of the 2 the leg provides you. The thing is that the torsos of the non-Kitfox-S provides a natural bonus, so depending on your needs... whether it is the ballistic hardpoint to go with the JJ capacity or the torso twist speed you desire, it is probably imperative to optimize your build and minimize the negative quirks each omnipod has. It's probably a bad idea to just switch to have all the hardpoints and JJ capacity you want, but never use it and take the penalties associated with them needlessly. I hope smurfy will get that accomplished soon.

What I found most frustrating with the Kitfox was with the missile hardpoints. Clan LRMs stream and that is cool but it is affected by AMS far more significantly than IS LRMs which fires in "clumps" or "groups" that tend to make AMS less effective. Clan SRMs work the same as their IS counterparts, but their tonnage saving is rather important. However, I think there is something weird/wrong/wonky with the CSRMs shot by a Kitfox. Clan Streaks aren't "staggering" as Paul had suggested a while ago, but "balanced" by large cooldowns. While Streaks in general remain anti-Light, they also still remain to be less effective for non-Lights. Boating these are a waste of time, unless you are off to protect your teammates from Lights.

For the most part, weapons are more or less the same if not just similar to their IS counterparts, so I find myself just fielding a Clab ERPPC. I did not get an opportunity to use the older Clan ER Large Laser. What I found most annoying though was where the arm slots happen to be. The right arm of the Kitfox is HIGHER than the left arm. This is great for "poptarting", but terrible for much else. So what happens is that the left arm "shoots into the hill" more often than the enemy. That's just bloody annoying.

With that said, I don't think anything of consequence is on the horizon until the Stormcrow/Ryoken's release (and that's like late October) but I will try to keep up posting here with developments with mechs and (balance) changes that happen with them. Hopefully there is some variant/mech worth looking into before then.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 August 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Deathlike, on 27 June 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

I guess the only suggestion needed is that the Wolverine-6K needs a torso twist buff (increase range and/or speed) IMO as the engine cap "increase" is superfluous in making the mech more effective (seriously, the difference between 360 and 375 is a whole lot of tonnage and not much on ROI for making it more useful). The 6R probably needs some buff (another hardpoint for either missile or ballistic would be extraordinarily helpful... probably better for the missile hardpoint though).

I guess... until next time!

I think the 6K could use a tiny change... I would take the Head energy point, and change it to torso, BUT leave the firing position in the same spot.. (not unheard of to have an energy point in upper center torso right?) This would let you put a Single Large laser or Large pulse, (or anything smaller) IN that spot.. Adding a decent Zombie ability to the mech, Or at least having a bit of firepower if you loose the arm..

this simple change would really increase the viability of this mech.. One i think has some potential as it is, as long as you think of it as a heavily armored light.

[Deathlike]

JC Daxion, on 26 August 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think the 6K could use a tiny change... I would take the Head energy point, and change it to torso, BUT leave the firing position in the same spot.. (not unheard of to have an energy point in upper center torso right?) This would let you put a Single Large laser or Large pulse, (or anything smaller) IN that spot.. Adding a decent Zombie ability to the mech, Or at least having a bit of firepower if you loose the arm..

this simple change would really increase the viability of this mech.. One i think has some potential as it is, as long as you think of it as a heavily armored light.

The only thing that prevents this is the stock build, as PGI has taken "some care" into how the hardpoints have to be accurate.

I personally treat the 6K like a light saber arm (I still have it in my inventory, one of the next few things to be sold) and it's better than the Trebuchet-5J (5 energy hardpoints on arms) and the Griffin-1S (4 energy hardpoints on right arm) for that particular thing. You'll need arm lock to get them synced up optimally when you fire, but that's how I maximized it. It was fun for that reason alone...

[Deathlike]

I'll get around to writing about the Firestarter-H in another post later (grinded it quickly on Double XP weekend), as the "Tier List" thing seems to be the current fad, considering the future buffs that are coming soon to the game. I will make it clear that the list only applies to the game AT THIS POINT IN TIME and I'll explain what each tier generally means, when I apply my opinion of the mech.

Tier 1 - Best mech in its weight class, with minimal flaws.
Tier 2 - Above average mech... while it has flaws, it can be covered up when used in the proper situations. Still very good what what you can use it to do.
Tier 3 - Average mech... it can be made to do stuff and may possibly be specialized. However, it doesn't do anything significantly better than an alternative option. It's just OK.
Tier 4 - Below average mech... while you can do some good stuff with it, ACTUAL SKILL is required to make the most of the mech to compensate for its deficiencies. It's bad for new players to try and frankly it would not be recommended outside of "love of the mech variant".
Tier 5 - Garbage tier... there are mechs that no matter how you try to give it a decent loadout, it doesn't understate the fact that it needs LOTS OF HELP to be competitive amongst the other variants of the chassis. That's how bad it is, and this is probably why you'll never see it fielded normally outside of the "have to grind 3 variants" reason.

Lights
Tier 1:
FS9-E - best combination between weapons cutting into the armor and weapons to eat the internals once armor is exposed
JR7-F - medium lasers are always useful, and cuts through everything effectively when managed properly...
Tier 2:
SDR-5D - when combined with JJs and ECM, maximum trolling effectiveness can be had, despite slow rate of damage (DPS)
JR7-D - best light killer, when paired with Streaks.. probably the optimal laser+missile platform for lights
RVN-3L - ECM defines it's relevance, but enlarged leg hitboxes are problematic
Tier 3:
COM-2D - ECM gives it the edge over other commandos... that's all
COM-TDK - more survivable than the Locust with the same build... but not by much
SDR-A - jack of all trades, master of none...
FS9-A - more torso lasers improve weapon options when arms are removed, but limit firing radius greatly
FS9-H - 2 MGs are not as useful at this time
FS9-K - arms are easily show off on a Firestarter, thus making it worse than the Jenner-F (the Jenner's arms are tiny)
FS9-S - despite dual AMS, it's not the optimal platform for it, it's just average really
JR7-K - it does nothing the Jenner-D already does, and the module slot indifference is killer
Tier 4:
LCT-1E - energy dependent, needs more leg armor like any locust
LCT-1M - can build something like the Commandos, but in a more terrible situation
LCT-3M - why do dual AMS when you need to cooldown?
COM-1B - lone missile slot reduces usefulness
COM-1D - shield arm useful, but worse missile option
COM-3A - trades 1D's shield arm for better missile ability
SDR-5K - torso twist limits CT laser firing.. completely reliant on cleaning up weakened targets
JR7-O - ammo dependent platform
RVN-2X - inferior Jenner-K, despite having a more flexible missile torso
RVN-4X - despite the JJ addition (only Raven to have it), it's inferior to the Ananzi
RVN-H - ammo dependent, and multiple MGs means it has to close on and finish the target
Tier 5:
LCT-1V - worse than the Spider-5K, and far less durable
LCT-3S - boating missiles takes too much tonnage for a low tonnage mech (major ammo dependency or need for BAP)
SDR-5V - there's nothing good you can make of two CT hardpoints... even the mass JJs don't help when you can't fire up and down with the CT lasers well enough to matter

Will post the medium tier next ASAP.

[Deathlike]

Medium
Tier 1:
SHD-2D2 - literally, it is the jack of all trades mech variant
Tier 2:
CDA-3M - ECM is pretty much making this useful... mostly energy focused due to ballistics taking too much tonnage
GRF-3M - best missile boat for its tonnage and tube distribution
GRF-1E - arguably better than the Quickdraw-5K and Jester for the same role in a better chassis and package
SHD-2D - Shadowhawk with 3 energy hardpoints is not a bad thing
SHD-2K - it's kind of the Griffin that wasn't
Tier 3:
CDA-2A - inferior Jenner-F due to Cicada being larger and weapons in side torsos... but it's the med alternative
CDA-2B - arm weapons are nice, but meh otherwise
CDA-X5 - fat Jenner-D that has no AMS... it needs dynamic visual hardpoint tweaks to improve its missile tube options to make it better...
BJ-1 - it's alright, when used for the AC20 and other dakka based builds...
BJ-1X - relatively fast, but also relatively limited in build diversity
BJ-A - seems ok, but MG heavy builds require closing the gap... which isn't exactly optimal
VND-SIB - since it has dual missile hardpoints, it's a bit more salvageable than the rest
CN9-A - somewhat holds up well, considering the nerfs, but tends to end up being limited in some form
HBK-4P - ghost heat has minimized the the 9 med laser build (see Champion build)
HBK-4SP - the only negative is that the arms are kinda low on the Hunchback... while the 4P is used to a higher firing location (at the same/similar level of the cockpit)
TBT-7K - torso weaponry allows it to use the large arms strictly as a shield, thus improving durability
TBT-L - seems like an interesting missile or SRM brawling platform...
GRF-1N - weapons all on one side allows for the arm for shielding
KTO-18 - best "grounded" LRM boat medium...
KTO-GB - somewhat similar to the KTO-18, if you're using it for LRMs...
SHD-2H - hard to make something good out of a generally ammo dependent mech
SHD-3M - similar to the 2H, but kinda suffers from its options (2 hardpoints of all types)
WVR-7K - balanced mech, but not quite as good as the Griffin-3M
Tier 4:
BJ-1DC - JJ variants get more torso twist and while you could put in more firepower, you are still using sub-250 engines to accomplish this
BJ-3 - very heat dependent
VND-1AA - despite having JJs and have the same engine cap as the BJ-1X, it doesn't have the durability it needs...
VND-1R - these things make you feel that a BJ would do better, especially if you don't use the missile hardpoint
VND-1X - limited energy hardpoints and ballistic arm really limits its overall potential
CN9-AL - large arms make it difficult for the energy arm to keep operational
CN9-D - completely reliant on speed to be effective... it tends to be a brawler
CN9-YLW - similar problem to the AL, but at least given better torso twisting radius to compensate for that
HBK-4G - MG nerfs have made it a poor supplementary weapon in said chassis
HBK-4H - this variant tends to be worse than the competing Blackjacks that reduce the impact... since everyone aims for the Hunchy's RT
HBK-4J - generally worse than the 4SP in most ways, despite having 1 more energy hardpoint
HBK-GI - suffers mainly the same problem with the 4G, in addition to have a not-so-useful missile hardpoint
TBT-3C - despite the speed, low and large arms make the Trebuchet as a whole, not so good
TBT-5J - majority of the weapons on the arms... easy to remove
TBT-5N - arguably worse than the KTO-20
TBT-7M - despite revamped missile tubes from the dynamic visual hardpoint changes, it's inferior to the Griffin
GRF-1S - too much of its power is contained on the right arm
KTO-19 - having most of your weapons as part of the arms makes this rather unappealing and uninteresting
KTO-20 - only better than the TBT-5N in terms of hardpoints and that's not saying much
WVR-6K - like the Griffin-1S, but more energy (laser saber arm)
Tier 5:
CDA-3C - while technically having more/better options than the Spider-5K, it's not that much better due to solo energy hardpoint
WVR-6R - very difficult to put together something decent, given the hardpoints... it's a bad/worse version of the Cent-D with hardpoint #s resembling the Shadowhawk-2H...

I'll post the Heavy tier later tonight... when I get the chance.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 September 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Deathlike]

Heavy
Tier 1:
CTF-3D - it's still at the top of the heavy list, but it looks worse due to the PPC nerfs and the existence of the Timberwolf
Tier 2:
JM6-FB - very popular variant that's pretty much surpassing the original purpose of the K2
JM6-S - inherently better than the K2, with the best dakka level (at least a tri-dakka option) that would fit
Tier 3:
DRG-FLAME - ballistic torso is the saving grace
DRG-1C - best non-hero dragon of the bunch.. doesn't mean much otherwise
QKD-5K - best Quickdraw of the bunch... too bad the chassis is far bigger than it should, despite high torso firing points
CPLT-C1 - it's alright, considering Catapults in general
CPLT-J - very energy dependent
CPLT-K2 - still holding up, but looks worse than a Jager often times
JM6-A - arguably, it's better some Catapults, despite not having JJs
JM6-DD - there's a point that too much dakka requires a lot...
TDR-5S - awkward hardpoints limit potential
TDR-5SS - mini-Awesome-8Q
TDR-9S - combination of 5S and 5SS, but with dual-AMS
TDR-9SE - best Thunderbolt due to JJs, but nothing close to having the staying power of the Cataphract due the cockpit view and limited torso movement to firing up and down while jumping...
CTF-1X - heavily energy based with a ballistic hardpoint can't go wrong...
CTF-IM - always been a solid hero since being the first to do the tri-UAC5 dakka from the start...
ON1-K - low arms resemble the Atlas that it is supposed to represent
ON1-P - well "balanced" Orion in terms of hardpoints...
ON1-V - double dakka, means double the attention of the RT
ON1-VA - missile oriented, with more hardpoints on the RT due to ballistics...
Tier 4:
DRG-1N - hard to do much with 2 missile CT hardpoints... if 1 wasn't already bad
DRG-FANG - most "balanced" dragon doesn't say much
QKD-4G - fast arms don't make up for one less hardpoint to the 4H
QKD-4H - mediocre missile tubes reduce potential
CPLT-A1 - too gimmicky, especially for being super-ammo dependent
CTF-2X - missile arm is limiting and needs dynamic visual hardpoint attention
ON1-M - missile CT hardpoint tube limit is missing potential
Tier 5:
DRG-5N - putting all the dakka in one arm is problematic, with large low arms... even the dakka Shadowhawk is more well armored due to the placement in the side torso
QKD-IV4 - ill advised hardpoints (ballistics in the arms) with CT energy (which is very limited), and engine cap lower than required for the speed needed for that chassis
CPLT-C4 - hard to put a decent loadout, and very easy to disable the main firepower
CTF-4X - Jagermechs ultimately made this variant obsolete... plus it's too slow as the engine cap is pathetic

I'll post later tonight after some MWO about the Assault tier...

Edited by Deathlike, 30 September 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[Deathlike]

OK, here's the last of it... before I goto bed.

Assault
Tier 1:
VTR-DS - superior Highlander-733C with better mobility.. jump jet nerf has reduced its appearance though...
Tier 2:
STK-3F - high firing arms and excellent chassis structure (could be considered undersized) and best torso twist of the Stalkers gives this an edge
STK-5M - most missile hardpoints in any assault chassis missile boat so far... plus CT laser is great
STK-M - adding a ballistic to an already great chassis is a boost
AS7-D-DC - ECM is the defining reason, but having the missile torso being useful enough for short and long range what makes it have greater firepower... plus the dakka RT
Tier 3:
VTR-9B - hard to take advantage of the tri-dakka when it's all on the arm...
VTR-9K - not hardpoint inflated for ballistics and that would have competed with the DS - it's an inferior version really
VTR-9S - fair brawler, but the Victor specific nerfs at the moment neuter it... once removed, it will be Tier 2
STK-3H - loss of hardpoints for "less accurate" LRM20 tubes doesn't feel like a "fair" tradeoff
STK-4N - loss of a hardpoint of a Stalker-3F/5S and no other benefits makes one scratch head... itshould get a module or torso twist boost like the 4N or something should be considered
STK-5S - dual AMS is OK, but that's not quite the tradeoff like the increased torso twist of the Stalker-3F
HGN-732 - JJ nerfs have put this and all other Highlanders into just a ground mech.. plus the torso twist quirks don't help either
HGN-733 - Stalker is a better missile boat considering JJs are nerfed... this will change a bit once JJs are not so crappy
HGN-733C - used to be a Tier 1 meta mech, but the quirks and JJ have done this in... it should move back up to Tier 1 or 2 once the negative quirks are removed with JJ being balanced "correctly"
HGN-HM - despite 5 JJs, it's bad for trying to be like the Victor, and double penalized for being a Highlander instead
BNC-3E - current dakka assault of note
BNC-3M - all energy, no arm articulation (but good shields
AS7-D - well balanced of all the Atlases...
Tier 4:
AWS-8Q - like Awesomes in general, energy heavy and generally slow...
AWS-8R - best Assault missile boat not named Stalker
AWS-8T - low arms for lowered expectations
AWS-8V - right side carries majority of weapons
AWS-9M - best Awesome of the bunch, but suffers from hitboxes that favor side torso removal like the rest... so XL engines are at your own risk
BLR-1D - a low slung dakka arm is bad for business... that and being somewhat as large as an Awesome
BLR-1G - torso twist speed needlessly nerfed due to large hardpoint count
BLR-SLG - Left Torso is a magnet due to hardpoint placement and dynamic hardpoint ugliness
BLR-1S - inferior missile boat compared to the Stalker, despite arm articulation
BLR-3M - same as Battlemaster-1G really
BLR-3S - Banshee does this better... minus the missiles
HGN-733P - a Stalker would be better, but moreso the mech itself is sub-par when you factor in all the negative quirks and JJs
BNC-3S - odd hardpoints that favor the RT side
AS7-RS - low arms make it not so desirable, especially considering its height and limited torso twist action up and down... making it difficult to shoot short light mechs... but it has a second missile hardpoint to do something useful...
Tier 5:
AWS-PB - Odd hardpoints, limited missile tubes... deceleration penalty (although, you can be creative on how to play with it)... it's just bad, and this mech feels bad... mech needs some dynamic visual hardpoints for a missile tube adjustment, but it needs major help
BNC-LM - Similar to the PB, limited hardpoints (3 usable energy hardpoints when you ignore the head) force limited configurations and missile torso ineffective due to having just 1
AS7-BH - It's worse than the RS in the fact that more of the weapon hardpoints are located in the arms... plus the reduced torso twist makes it rather suboptimal for shielding.. the missile hardpoint is an afterthought
AS7-K - punishing an Atlas by adding the second AMS, but removing essentially two hardpoints (one missile and one ballistic) from the Atlas-D is... horrible... it needs a hardpoint back like energy, missile, or ballistic as compensation...

It's sad to point out that almost half of assault mech heros are bottom tier... so go figure.