38 replies to this topic

[jozkhan]

Is Mechwarrior Online really Free-to-Play?

OK so that's the question for this thread.

Define Free to Play: OK well generally speaking a game is given the F2P label when it is free to play in the sense that 'playing for free' allows you to compete with the paying player base without disadvantage.

A good example of this would be League of Legends

Now Paul tells us he expects it to take roughly 20 hours to grind for a top tier avatar (I dont know what game he is playing with that terminology but I think he means a mech)

But you then have to factor in the grind time to turn that top tier avatar (stock mech, trial mech for intents and purposes) into something game worthy sooo that'll be:

Double heatsinks (note to new players they dont actually work as double just 1.4) - kerching!

Bigger or better engine... XL engine can cost more than the mech itself - kerching!

Endosteel - kerching!

Weapons (including a little trial and error time as the majority of players we are told dont come to the forums to look up optimum builds etc) - kerching!

Associated stuff - Artemis, AMS, etc - kerching!

So... how are we doing with that grind for your mech? Yes that's right it's about 40 hours total now.

so lets work on unlocking some efficiencies and mastering that sucker...

oh what's that you say? I need 3 of these to unlock masteries? wha? But what if I don't like the others so much? oic

80 hours later...

ok so let's unlock those masteries now!

so here we are 120 hours in and we are now ready to compete without disadvantage.

(and then theres modules of course...)

(Note: This applies to only 1 mech chassis type, other mech chassis types must be purchased and unlocked and if you are F2P then hello you now MUST purchase mechbays as well as you are only allowed 4 as a 'free' user)

To summarize: That's roughly 120 hours to baseline for 1 mech chassis (depending on ability, the current rate of Cbill awards, changes to weapons forcing you to rebuy, not including buying a mech to find out its not for you etc)

What was the question? Oh yes,

'Is Mechwarrior Online really deserving of the label free to play?'

Is this really in the spirit of free to play?

edited to add XL engine

Edited by jozkhan, 25 August 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[StarGeezer]

And this is in the New Player Help area becaaaause...?

[jozkhan]

Because generally speaking this is a topic of interest to new players.

Because if you are a new player that has come to the forums then you most likely wish to inform yourself.

Because if you have been here since Closed or Open Beta you have a lot of mechs (most likely)

Because this goes to the heart of the entry level to the game whether you stay F2P or start paying for premium time, more mechbays, hero mechs, novelty items, paint jobs, camo etc

Edited by jozkhan, 25 August 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Yes, because there is no content you can purchase that will give you a decided advantage (in combat) against another player who skipped the grind by paying money.
You seem to be argueing that because it takes a long time to get the top tier mechs, then it is not free to play as the only reasonable way to gain that stuff in any kind of decent amount of time is to put down money. That's not covered under free to play. It does not matter how long it takes to grind to still be called free to play.
Besides, there is no reason a totally F2P player won't settle for a cheaper chassis like a medium. You are picking the extreme example. Also the game is not free to make so you can expect things to be awful if you aren't willing to spend at least a little money.

[Redshift2k5]

A paying player with dozens of mechs is at no greater advantage than a free player with three skilled up mechs. They both can only bring one mech to the battlefield, and even a 100% free player can master a chassis and kit it with modules. There is no disadvantage in gameplay.

There may be a disadvantage in TIME required to reach an equitable level, but time = money, you can choose which you would prefer to spend

[StarGeezer]

What Red said.

[scJazz]

Redshift2k5, on 25 August 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

There may be a disadvantage in TIME required to reach an equitable level, but time = money, you can choose which you would prefer to spend

The salient point! Which is also the heart of all F2P game models!

On a side note it isn't 40 hours of grind to buy and kit an Atlas. I've been keeping hideously accurate track of match earnings and match time, average is 25 hours. This assumes that you stick around to view the entire match.

[Jaynestown]

I have spent about $240 on the game from the day I signed up for the Founder's program to today. That was $60 Founders, $100 in MC during the Christmas sale, and $80 on Phoenix Overlord. So far, I don't feel like it has given me any advantage in the game whatsover. I can't blow through different chassis up to mastery unless I had the XP to convert to GXP. So I can buy them and throw them in the mech bay but I can't master them any faster than you. If I use my MC for premium time then I can "grind" 50% faster, or if I used a Hero or Champion Mech I could receive a bonus (but only on that one mech). I don't though, because I like mixing it up. So in that sense spending money would have penalized me (if I limited myself to just my X-5 or the HBK-4G F). They even recently added a double-xp bonus for your first victory of the day in each chassis, which is just a freebie for everyone who isn't grinding through one mech at a time. I think they're doing a good job of F2P so far. The only things I've disagreed with personally have been the MC coolant shots and special air strikes, which I don't use, but I don't think those confer a really noticeable advantage anyway. Maybe 5 of those special air strikes would scratch the paint on my new camo scheme... which works out, since that's about what I paid too =)

[Wintersdark]

And paying brings little value, here.

Premium time and Hero mechs certainly shorten the process, but that's the very heart of a Free To Play model, exactly what is expected.

But MC's? They'll buy you the chassis only, not DHS, ES, replacement engines, weapons, etc - all that stuff? You need C-Bills for it. Grind time is the same.

And using an Atlas is extremely misleading. Lets look instead at the time to buy, upgrade and field, say, a trio of Hunchbacks. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of that time. Or a Quickdraw, or even a Jagermech.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

You can't forget that this is a game of progression where time "invested" means you have not only skill perks but also physical in game perks like elited out mechs with better components. Don't you expect a F1 racer to not only be a better driver but to have better toys than that of an amateur go-carter?

[Straylight]

Jozkhan, you're ignoring the fact that you're earning C-bills, MXP and GXP all at the same time. You save up for the asset you want, while earning rewards for whatever you're using to get there, then you're earning efficiencies and module unlocks while you're gearing up. In some cases, selling off the equipment you don't want can partially or heavily recoup the costs of the kit you want to run. Because equipment is also reusable between chassis, the big-ticket items like XL engines and modules you only have to buy once.

The difference between a Mastered chassis and one that's at 0/8 Basic is notable, but not large and far from game-breaking. Plus, everyone has to do it, so no advantage to the paid guys. Want to get the extra module slot on that Heavy Metal you just bought? You gotta grind through 17 million (plus equipment) worth of other Highlanders just like the free player working on his 732.

Is this game really free to play? Yep. I can play, forever, without spending a cent, and at no point am I not competitive with everyone else. How far I go in the game, how well I do, is down to my skill alone, not how much money I have to spend.

In fact, I'd say MWO is one of the best example of Free to Play done right, along with Star Trek Online and Neverwinter.

Lysander Voidrunner, on 25 August 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

You can't forget that this is a game of progression where time "invested" means you have not only skill perks but also physical in game perks like elited out mechs with better components. Don't you expect a F1 racer to not only be a better driver but to have better toys than that of an amateur go-carter?

Heh, the difference here is that Lewis Hamilton winning in F1 and me autocrossing on the weekends don't compete against one another. That's why MWO's model has to stay relatively flat: we're all on the same field, with access to the same technology. We're throwing F1 on the same circuit as WRC, and NASCAR, and V8 Supercars, and WTCC, and LeMans, and NHRA Top Fuel, and LeMons... the only way to keep the field fair is to limit which toys people have access to. Yeah, some teams will develop their toys faster than others, but they're all working with the same rules, meaning that ultimately it comes down to skill, not money.

...and then Vettel and Schumacher still win, but that's a different problem.

Edited by Straylight, 25 August 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[Wintersdark]

And, yeah, with the Phoenix Pack I'm quite comfortably over $400 spent. This has allowed my to build a stable of 25 mechs with limited play time (an average of 6 matches per day), upgrade them, and level them up.

I should also point out: Mastering mechs? It's really not necessary for reasonably competitive play. Modules are helpful but not that big a deal. Likewise, basically once you get speed tweak, that's good enough for competitive play... And even then, barring lights, it's just not that big a deal.

Everyone likes to make a big deal about it, but player skill is so much more important, just having your basics (not doubled) is enough that unless your opponent is pretty much exactly on the same skill level as you, those skills are not going to be a deciding factor.

[101011]

You left out the part where the free player gets shafted by having to sell his 'mechs for absurdly low prices after grinding out one chassis. "You want to sell your incredibly rare and valuable 'mech that is fully kitted out in the best equipment? Here, I'll give you enough cash to buy a Gauss Rifle!"

[EyeDie I]

i had 3 catapults mastered 2 sold 1 and just bought an ecm atlas all free, basic paints were for cbills, i only have paid to phracken the 2 cats and convert xp, havent even bought mechbays yet.also during the cadet bonus matches claim your free day of premium time at the download page to boost your bonus more.

[DegeneratePervert]

Yes, it is free to play. There is nothing in this game (except for hero mechs, and those are only special in their quirks... and are often not so good) that you cannot acquire through C-Bills and natural progression. The bonus applied to new players lets them pick out pretty much any mech they want, and gives them enough currency to start to customize it out.

You don't need Endo, Ferro, DHS to be a solid player and an asset to your team. These things help when min/maxing your mech, but are not required by any stretch of the imagination.

3 Chassis are required to "elite" something because otherwise people would just have one mech they favor. There have been many times where I've had to level another mech, and found another one that I love. Case in point, the Centurions. I had the CN9-A, and I love it to pieces. Needed two more mechs, so I grabbed the CN9-AL. Love playing that as a sniper. Then I grabbed the Yen Lo Wang, and fell in love with the "samurai" style of combat (pick your targets, lop of limbs and faces).

Every mech doesn't have to be combat ready in your garage. About 32 of my 41 mechs don't have engines, and are otherwise unfinished. I just scuttle parts from one mech to another. So, yes, having an XL is expensive; but that doesn't mean every mech requires it's own. Parts can be shared.

In a nutshell: Yes, this game is Free to Play. Paying money just speeds things up, with the exception of the Hero Mechs, but that's another topic.

[jozkhan]

Thanks for the replies! Interesting stuff so far...

So what about the traditional F2Pers that exist in something like as someone mentioned Star Trek Online... we haven't heard from them yet... basically people who have played exclusively F2P since Open Beta started last year and are happily going along with just the 4 mechbays and have enjoyed the 'free' experience.

Do they really exist in MWO like they do in Star Trek Online say?

I think perhaps this is the point. While 'on paper' and 'in theory' MWO is free to play nobody who has been laying throughout open beta is a 'free to play player', everyone has paid something for something, or something for a lot of things.

Unlike Neverwinter and STO and the more orthodox free to play models, it doesnt turn out that way in the long run with MWO

Edited by jozkhan, 25 August 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[StarGeezer]

I've only been playing a week, and have already put $40 into the game ($30 worth of MC, and $10 for the Sarah's Jenner, which technically didn't go to PGI but rather to the Canadian Cancer Society.) I picked up 3 days of Premium Time for my Cadet Bonus weekend, and an X-5 while it was on sale. And I have my crosshairs squarely on the Overlord package in the Project Phoenix program.

Here's the thing: I still play like a week-old newbie (and have the K/D ratio to prove it!) This despite my putting real cash into the game. So if the premise is that those who go 100% free to play are at an inherent disadvantage, then the converse should also be true. I should roll like a boss. But I don't. I put money into the game because I enjoy it, not because I'm looking for a competitive edge, or a shortcut to supremacy. Proficiency as well as material gain within the game comes with time. Sure you can MC-purchase all the mechs if you so choose, but you still have to grind the XP to get the pilot skills unlocked. And that only comes through an investment in time.

[jozkhan]

In reply to (er) DegeneratePervert :

I think it is a bit disengenous to say DHS are a non-requirement. It's well understood there are very few mech builds that are viable with single heatsinks alone.

[Grayzzur]

101011, on 25 August 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

You left out the part where the free player gets shafted by having to sell his 'mechs for absurdly low prices after grinding out one chassis. "You want to sell your incredibly rare and valuable 'mech that is fully kitted out in the best equipment? Here, I'll give you enough cash to buy a Gauss Rifle!"

That is one area a new player should be aware of.. you get I think 4 bays for Mechs. Additional Mech Bays cost 300 MC each. It does require money to have a large stable of Mechs at your disposal, but not too much.. about $1.25-1.75 USD per Mech Bay right now, depending on how much MC you buy in a chunk. If you want to play completely free, you will have to sell Mechs to make room for new Mechs. Any time you sell anything back, it's at a loss in C-bills.

[LauLiao]

OP: You define it perfectly in your post: This game is FREE TO PLAY, and Pay to Skip Over the playing part and get right to having lots of expensive goodies but still sucking becuase you don't have the experience someone who spend the time to get this point.