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Gamefront: A Cautionary Tale


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#61 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 31 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:


Yeah ECM is really the first battle I dipped my toe into on the forums. And you are right, it really laid the groundwork for how PGI was going to treat the community.

Was it really the first thing, though?

You can go back even further. There were issues people talked about with the heat system before. The "White Knights" said "Just wait for DHS". Well, issues remained, just instead of PPCs being terribly bad and useless they now became a staple. Improvement? Not really.

That convergence was problematic was also something talked about. I don't think people really understood every aspect of that back then (and we may still not do), because we did have lagshields and all that.

And most of this was ignored. We've been talking about the heat system since the early closed beta, there were people talking about the problems the system had before even I joined.

It's really difficult to find the part where they actually made smart design decisions.Heck, one of their reactions to "buff" the PPC back then was to raise its rate of fire to 1 shot per 3 seconds - a weapon people in the world of SHS was way too hot - raising its fire rate doesn't help at all!

#62 Rasako

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:07 AM

oh boy, more "the sky is falling!" threads...how about you go outside and enjoy the rest of the summer and come back when the game is in a more complete state instead of ******* on everyone's mood with all of this negativity?

Edited by Rasako, 31 August 2013 - 08:08 AM.


#63 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 31 August 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Was it really the first thing, though?

You can go back even further. There were issues people talked about with the heat system before. The "White Knights" said "Just wait for DHS". Well, issues remained, just instead of PPCs being terribly bad and useless they now became a staple. Improvement? Not really.

That convergence was problematic was also something talked about. I don't think people really understood every aspect of that back then (and we may still not do), because we did have lagshields and all that.

And most of this was ignored. We've been talking about the heat system since the early closed beta, there were people talking about the problems the system had before even I joined.

It's really difficult to find the part where they actually made smart design decisions.Heck, one of their reactions to "buff" the PPC back then was to raise its rate of fire to 1 shot per 3 seconds - a weapon people in the world of SHS was way too hot - raising its fire rate doesn't help at all!


I think there are two things that PGI did really well.

One is the art...unfortunately the modeling team has been doing an amazing job if screwing up the concept.

Second is the mech component system. They did a great job of giving us mechs that you could pick apart, instead of just a hitpoint bar.

Problem is, they didn't give us any reason to shoot the other parts, the game is so focused on shooting the center torso and that's it.

It's very frustrating.

#64 Warge

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostStalephreak, on 31 August 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

NOTHING would kill AC40 faster than the repair/rearm. You had to win, and you had to do a lot of damage to a lot of people to make those suckers pay.

It all depends on numbers of R&R that can be tweaked.

#65 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostWarge, on 31 August 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

It all depends on numbers of R&R that can be tweaked.


I thought they gave up on R&R too quickly. There is such a damn lack of forethought from PGI sometimes.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but if they took a surgical approach and used it properly it could have been a balancing tool.

#66 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 31 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:


I thought they gave up on R&R too quickly. There is such a damn lack of forethought from PGI sometimes.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but if they took a surgical approach and used it properly it could have been a balancing tool.

Have they given you any sign that they have the ability to make a repair & rearm system really work?
Even if I was willing to believe that AFK farming and Trial suiciding or Pay-To-Win via Premium and Hero bonuses wouldn't wreck a R&R system fundamentally anyway, if they can manage to screw up missiles about 3-4 times in the first year and still haven't really achieved a semblance of balance, where do you get your confidence?

View PostVXJaeger, on 31 August 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

You mean like requiring people to learn how to use a twist indicator on the minimap to learn how to move a mech?
You seem to be on island, even PGI isn't that daft.

Edited by Helmer, 01 September 2013 - 09:54 AM.
Redacted qouted Ad hominems.


#67 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 31 August 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Have they given you any sign that they have the ability to make a repair & rearm system really work?
Even if I was willing to believe that AFK farming and Trial suiciding or Pay-To-Win via Premium and Hero bonuses wouldn't wreck a R&R system fundamentally anyway, if they can manage to screw up missiles about 3-4 times in the first year and still haven't really achieved a semblance of balance, where do you get your confidence?


You mean like requiring people to learn how to use a twist indicator on the minimap to learn how to move a mech?
You seem to be on island, even PGI isn't that daft.


I have no confidence. It's more idle chatter.

I haven't purchased a Phoenix Package at all. I could have. I have money set aside. But I said I'd wait till PGI did something I could believe it.

And I'm as hardcore Battletech/Mechwarrior as they come. I've read every novel 2-3 times growing up.

PGI is terrible.

#68 Colonel Pada Vinson

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:05 AM

This article on gamefront is terrible.

12v12 was always slated. the guy actually says "but we didnt want more than 8v8." that's completely untrue, CW hinges on 12v12 and always has.

Ghost heat fixed "Boat warrior", sorry, is it me or do you all want to play dual ac/20 jagger 4PPC stalker warrior all day like we had before the heat penalties? remember how every mech got cored in 2-3 shots? I for one am glad it's gone.

3PV, yes he has a point, PGI fibbed.

But overall, this article is laughable, this is not journalism, it's blatant trolling on a review site.

Even more shocking is the amount of you that are cheering on the failure of this game. You all realize that if this game does actually fail you will never see a mechwarrior game again for at least 10 years? I guess waiting the last 10 years wasn't a big deal?

Yeah, great job. Keep spreading these lies. lots of us are very happy with "Ghost heat", and we really have 0 issues with 3PV, we enjoy 12v12, and we have enough patience to give PGI time to develop CW and finish ui 2.0 in the next few months without freaking out because things are taking longer than expected.

When I game on the various teamspeak servers only like 1 in 10 people, if that even ever mentions the forums or comes here. Of my 50 man unit, only 1 cares to even visit these forums on occassion.

so when PGI says these forums are a vocal minority, I tend to believe them. It's just sad that this minority has now been feeding these lies and vitriol to journalists, and that the journalist can't even write an article without getting his facts straight.

#69 Maethos

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostHDMan, on 31 August 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

The article is accurate in the fact that there is tremendous backlash in the forums by a very vocal group. There have been mistakes made (devs are human as is the publisher). This kind of "entitled" ranting is REALLY hurting the community and the game. PLEASE give them some time to realize their vision and enjoy the game as it is. Community warfare will eventually make it into the game once they bring UI2.0 online. What the article doesn't portray is the HUGE number of folks who DO like the game and don't post their fury in the forums. I have been avoiding the forums because it is soooooo depressing to see all the bashing. I LOVE this game and it's our ONLY shot at bringing our beloved IP back to life. Take a few moments to marvel at what happens in each match you play. The environment, the damage maps to the mechs, the teamwork necessary to pull of a win, the mechanics involved in staying alive while taking out foes. I am terrified that this game might die in a fit of rage that is completely unnecessary. PLEASE give them some time...

Although I'm quoting this poster, it is meant for the position, which seems to be floating around, and In no way was it meant to offend any individual.

First off if your supporting MWO with founders,pp and mc purchases, then feeling you have been mislead is not a entitlement mentality. Maybe in the news this term is thrown around allot but dose not apply here(there maybe a few that go to far tho).

The article lays out a decent time line. The you got to wait and see what there vision is, at this point is a sheepish position. This is MECH Warrior not farmville, It's meant to be a thinking persons shooter(unless the tag as been removed for the target demographic) not a mindless free for all.

for a segment of the community they have been watching, waiting and looking for content that is stated to becoming. What is said one week is subject to change the next, so to ask players to wait on other stuff under the guise it will make things better is kinda silly at this point. Trust/faith was given, then lost and now for some require it to be earned back.

The game is not completely broken but has gone in a different direction and not the game that some people were investing in. To love this game in current state and use the "its the only or its a mech game" is rubbish. Clinging to it on a I don't care how you treat me.
Is allot like what happens in Vegas. Guy walks in into strip club, falls in lust, spends all his money by which time he thinks its mutual love and then is ejected from club for harassing her(hehe I run a trade-show co and see my clients do this weekly).

As a beta tester you should never avoid the forms, its were you get info and provide feedback(praise,critics and suggestions) Testing outside of server stress test is/was never about being a silent participant, so please continue to speak up, but address what is being discussed. Not I love/like this game and we just need to pretend there is no warrant to the concerns.

Here's a good example of where we are at and illustrated by the article. I'll let you decide who is on island, who is blinding following and who is right. Erik The Viking Island Scene




See you all in game and Good Hunting
Maethos

Edit: I should of also stated that I do not advocate just walking away from MWO, just lets speak up and then react if necessary. Articles like this may help or hurt, but PGI has the lead on this and is setting game course, if it fails due to features and/or lack of it is their blame and not ours.

Edited by Maethos, 31 August 2013 - 10:24 AM.


#70 Stalephreak

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 31 August 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

This article on gamefront is terrible.

12v12 was always slated. the guy actually says "but we didnt want more than 8v8." that's completely untrue, CW hinges on 12v12 and always has.

Ghost heat fixed "Boat warrior", sorry, is it me or do you all want to play dual ac/20 jagger 4PPC stalker warrior all day like we had before the heat penalties? remember how every mech got cored in 2-3 shots? I for one am glad it's gone.

3PV, yes he has a point, PGI fibbed.

But overall, this article is laughable, this is not journalism, it's blatant trolling on a review site.

Even more shocking is the amount of you that are cheering on the failure of this game. You all realize that if this game does actually fail you will never see a mechwarrior game again for at least 10 years? I guess waiting the last 10 years wasn't a big deal?

Yeah, great job. Keep spreading these lies. lots of us are very happy with "Ghost heat", and we really have 0 issues with 3PV, we enjoy 12v12, and we have enough patience to give PGI time to develop CW and finish ui 2.0 in the next few months without freaking out because things are taking longer than expected.

When I game on the various teamspeak servers only like 1 in 10 people, if that even ever mentions the forums or comes here. Of my 50 man unit, only 1 cares to even visit these forums on occassion.

so when PGI says these forums are a vocal minority, I tend to believe them. It's just sad that this minority has now been feeding these lies and vitriol to journalists, and that the journalist can't even write an article without getting his facts straight.


Soo, you're telling me that boat mechs didn't exist at all in the BatteTech universe?

#71 Maethos

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostJohn MatriX82, on 31 August 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:


Considering the number of hours I've poured into this game in 1 year (nothing unprecedented besides MW4 and/or Mercenaries I think), I'm not asking for refunds because it would be unfair. I've left something like 14k MCs that I'll restrain to use for anything in future and I'll hold myself from giving them any further money for sure.

But biased article? It's an article, the author documented on the history of PGI vs community and gave out a perfectly written log.



Again the author documented about what happened, biased or not it's exactly what happened so far. It fits perfectly, sadly.



A vocal minority that made it outside our forums to reach bloggers and game magazines, and that will probably cripple 17th launch, hoping it may serve PGI as a lesson to rethink their marketing and choices.

But I strongly suspect they are giving up on us completely (as the latest two "apology" and "Sept Dev update") in favor of the 10 y/o players, that kind of players that ask to mum the money to throw at the game rather than the generations from 30-40-50-60 BT fan that have an indipendency and would cover (and HAVE COVERED) PGI in gold like the Founder did. But they betrayed us so badly.. and this article sums it all perfectly.


John I'm with you all the way but, the article is missing allot of PGI's statements (not that it would help them and most likely make article that much more condemning and is why missing) It is clear to me that author of article empathizes with us and not PGI's position so is biased in appearance, but is still true in facts and time line.

#72 DV McKenna

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 31 August 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

This article on gamefront is terrible.

12v12 was always slated. the guy actually says "but we didnt want more than 8v8." that's completely untrue, CW hinges on 12v12 and always has.

Ghost heat fixed "Boat warrior", sorry, is it me or do you all want to play dual ac/20 jagger 4PPC stalker warrior all day like we had before the heat penalties? remember how every mech got cored in 2-3 shots? I for one am glad it's gone.

3PV, yes he has a point, PGI fibbed.

But overall, this article is laughable, this is not journalism, it's blatant trolling on a review site.

Even more shocking is the amount of you that are cheering on the failure of this game. You all realize that if this game does actually fail you will never see a mechwarrior game again for at least 10 years? I guess waiting the last 10 years wasn't a big deal?

Yeah, great job. Keep spreading these lies. lots of us are very happy with "Ghost heat", and we really have 0 issues with 3PV, we enjoy 12v12, and we have enough patience to give PGI time to develop CW and finish ui 2.0 in the next few months without freaking out because things are taking longer than expected.

When I game on the various teamspeak servers only like 1 in 10 people, if that even ever mentions the forums or comes here. Of my 50 man unit, only 1 cares to even visit these forums on occassion.

so when PGI says these forums are a vocal minority, I tend to believe them. It's just sad that this minority has now been feeding these lies and vitriol to journalists, and that the journalist can't even write an article without getting his facts straight.


I wondered when Rosey the Paladin would turn up.

His article is factual. Unless your a White Knighted and Secret Squirrel Club member

Given the terrible server performance and Hit Registration, increasing the amount of people per match was not wanted at that time.
Later when those issues and the balance of alpha damage were fixed ..sure.

Quote

Ghost heat fixed "Boat warrior", sorry, is it me or do you all want to play dual ac/20 jagger 4PPC stalker warrior all day like we had before the heat penalties? remember how every mech got cored in 2-3 shots? I for one am glad it's gone.


A sign you play with terrible people, AC Jagers and 4 PPC stalkers, and 2 PPC Gauss mechs still work, funnily enough until PGI introduce yet another stupid system of charge up time on the Gauss, boat warrior hasn't gone away yet
Without a tutorial to explain this mechanic, it's a terrible design and implementation for non forums goers ( the majority am i rite?)
A re-design of the heat scale, lower threshold and increased dissipation would result in the same thing and not be a behind the scenes arbitrary system


Quote

3PV, yes he has a point, PGI fibbed.


They didn't just lie, they mis sold a product to backers.

Quote

Even more shocking is the amount of you that are cheering on the failure of this game. You all realize that if this game does actually fail you will never see a mechwarrior game again for at least 10 years? I guess waiting the last 10 years wasn't a big deal?


*shrug* No game, or watch PGI/IGP train wreck it further not much of a choice.


Quote

When I game on the various teamspeak servers only like 1 in 10 people, if that even ever mentions the forums or comes here. Of my 50 man unit, only 1 cares to even visit these forums on occassion.


Your only accurate point. Your the only visible member of your unit.

Roll on the PC gamer article that claims MWO is the greatest shooter of all time.

Edited by DV McKenna, 31 August 2013 - 10:51 AM.


#73 PythonCPT

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostRasako, on 31 August 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

oh boy, more "the sky is falling!" threads...how about you go outside and enjoy the rest of the summer and come back when the game is in a more complete state instead of ******* on everyone's mood with all of this negativity?

He's right if you ignore all your problems things only get better.

#74 Cael Voltek

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:25 AM

View PostDarwinsDisciple, on 30 August 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

To think 2 weeks ago this could have all been averted with a couple lines of code.


You, and the ones who 'liked' this post, obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited by Cael Voltek, 31 August 2013 - 11:25 AM.


#75 Colonel Pada Vinson

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostDV McKenna, on 31 August 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:


I wondered when Rosey the Paladin would turn up.

His article is factual. Unless your a White Knighted and Secret Squirrel Club member

Given the terrible server performance and Hit Registration, increasing the amount of people per match was not wanted at that time.
Later when those issues and the balance of alpha damage were fixed ..sure.

A sign you play with terrible people, AC Jagers and 4 PPC stalkers, and 2 PPC Gauss mechs still work, funnily enough until PGI introduce yet another stupid system of charge up time on the Gauss, boat warrior hasn't gone away yet
Without a tutorial to explain this mechanic, it's a terrible design and implementation for non forums goers ( the majority am i rite?)
A re-design of the heat scale, lower threshold and increased dissipation would result in the same thing and not be a behind the scenes arbitrary system

They didn't just lie, they mis sold a product to backers.

*shrug* No game, or watch PGI/IGP train wreck it further not much of a choice.

Your only accurate point. Your the only visible member of your unit.

Roll on the PC gamer article that claims MWO is the greatest shooter of all time.


Some nice personal attacks and trolling here. This is exactly why I show up, because people like you are spreading false rumours and outright lies alongside personal attacks.

1. Yes, I am the primary visible member of my unit, on these forums. Your assumption or attempt to lie about the truth of my units gaming presence is in the same vein of the article - assumptive lies. I can gaurentee you that we field from 4 to 16 members currently depending on the days and nights, and just because we are not always on the North American Comstar, or heavily on these forums, does not mean we do not play the game or drop together.

2. HSR gives me almost 0 troubles. I havent had HSR issues more than 1% of shots. a large amount of HSR complaining has more to do with hitboxes and ballistics and how these trajectories work, and the general players lack of understanding of these convergence mechanics, than simply HSR being off.

3. His article is not factual. 12v12 was always in the books. Ghost heat was a necessary fix for boating.

4. I saw only dual ac/20 mechs and ppc boats or gauss/ppc pop-tarts before. I still do see these mechs, but not as often as before because other builds are now equally viable - oh for shame balance gone wrong, everything is now viable!

Thank you however for allowing me to mentally slot you into the "losers who attack my "skill" to justify their ********" category.

You sound like just another angry fan who didn't get "his" way. This seems to be the tone of the gamefront article, and of a continued few people who do not like the direction PGI chose to take with the game.

PGI has every right to change the direction of the IP.

For many of us, from the 12v12 to the ghost heat to the 3PV, those changes have mostly been for the better, and we laugh at those of you who continue to behave like 5 year old children who can't see past their navels and resort to personal attacks to try to bolster their positions.

#76 VXJaeger

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 31 August 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:


Some nice personal attacks and trolling here. This is exactly why I show up, because people like you are spreading false rumours and outright lies alongside personal attacks.
-snip-
For many of us, from the 12v12 to the ghost heat to the 3PV, those changes have mostly been for the better, and we laugh at those of you who continue to behave like 5 year old children who can't see past their navels and resort to personal attacks to try to bolster their positions.

Oh my God, give this man a truckload of cookies! :)

#77 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:36 AM

You turned into more of a tool than Thontor. Amazing feat.

How's that **** smell on your nose.

#78 Super Mono

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 31 August 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

PGI has every right to change the direction of the IP.


No they don't. They are a license holder, and Microsoft owns the license. Their license will eventually expire.

#79 DV McKenna

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:48 AM

Quote

1. Yes, I am the primary visible member of my unit, on these forums. Your assumption or attempt to lie about the truth of my units gaming presence is in the same vein of the article - assumptive lies. I can gaurentee you that we field from 4 to 16 members currently depending on the days and nights, and just because we are not always on the North American Comstar, or heavily on these forums, does not mean we do not play the game or drop together.


Congratulations you have friends to play with.

Quote

2. HSR gives me almost 0 troubles. I havent had HSR issues more than 1% of shots. a large amount of HSR complaining has more to do with hitboxes and ballistics and how these trajectories work, and the general players lack of understanding of these convergence mechanics, than simply HSR being off.


I'll take your word on that, it's not like you factually prove you have no issues with it, while large amounts of people do. Hit detection in this game is terrible, increasing server load in matches was always a terrible idea.

Quote

3. His article is not factual. 12v12 was always in the books. Ghost heat was a necessary fix for boating.


12v12 wasn't always on the books, 8 v 8 was the projected staple, they did say way back when time began they would look into increasing the limit dependent on server performance.
Ghost heat in your opinion was necessary, to many others there were less secretive ways of doing it, and many had good ideas posted and ignored.
Ghost heat was a left field creation that did not fix the problem, infact it created others.

Quote

4. I saw only dual ac/20 mechs and ppc boats or gauss/ppc pop-tarts before. I still do see these mechs, but not as often as before because other builds are now equally viable - oh for shame balance gone wrong, everything is now viable!


That says alot, because everything is far from viable. In a competitive must win scenario there are still only a small handful of weapons that are actually viable.

As to the rest of the dribble, you have every right to slot me into any mental place you so wish most people have you in the rabid white knight section who'll say the sky is brown if PGI asked him too.

PGI has the right to change direction, but then they should have sold people a vision in the first place that they didn't stick too.
The pitfalls of crowd funding.

As always Rosey thank you for your contribution even if it is out of line with " a few of us"

#80 Chronojam

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostPythonCPT, on 31 August 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

He's right if you ignore all your problems things only get better.

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