Jump to content

Why Wont Pgi Add Recoil


56 replies to this topic

Poll: would you like too see a form of recoil added too MW:O (153 member(s) have cast votes)

would you like too see a form of recoil added too MW:O

  1. YES (102 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. NO (41 votes [26.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.80%

  3. Don't Know (10 votes [6.54%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.54%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 johnyboy420

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 197 posts
  • Locationyour momma's house

Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:08 PM

im just wondering why they dont put recoil on most weps like AC's, PPC's, Gauss, LRM's and SRM's rather than using stuff like ghost heat or useless mechanic's like a charge to gauss.

every mechwarrior but mech2 had a recoil too balance bigger weapon systems mech3 in my mind had some of the best wep recoils ever. one gun shot from a ppc make you jar like 3mm on reticule from the target making me have to readjust too take another shot i think dif weps shoud have more or less recoil

Example1 a thor in mech3 with a AC 20 in the left arm would make you jar to the left if you shoot it on top of that there AC's did like 6 shot burst's so when the recoil happened the gun kinda draged its damage so it wazn't so pin point

example2 but one thing they didnt do was upward recoil i think that you can run 6 AC 2's but it should recoil up if your weps are in like said LA and RA and make you have to pull down to try and stay on target with 6 AC 2's so you might in the end need too do burst's with a setup like that too hit the target more accurately with out just putting rounds in the wall's same goes for like 3 AC 2's in one arm depeneding what arm it is lets say RA it should recoil too the right same goes for weps in LA

example3 i think that if you use only 2 AC's the recoil be very min same for using 1 ac 5 but there shoud at some point when using more then one AC 5 or two AC 2 that the recoil starts heavy and makes it hard for the said battlemechs computer too keep the reticule on its target (just saying that too make it look more true)

example 4 and even tho the PPC is energy i think just for bal purposes it shoud have a recoil because it puts its damage in one volley that and from lore the ppc gun shot sounds violent

example 5 i think that the only gun that shoudn't be affected by recoil is lasers for 2 reasons 1 is that the lasers are no longer pinpoint and 2 they dont have the range or the damage too be a OP weapon and in RL lasers dont recoil that and they have them like mech 3 pulse las

in the end i think recoil make the game alot more interesting and harder for most players

Edited by johnyboy420, 16 September 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#2 Antonio

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 125 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:05 PM

I remember the gauss rifle in MW3 rocking my Shadowcat pretty hard when I fired. I think recoil would add more depth to the game.

#3 Skunk Wolf

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 286 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

Coding is hard.

TT rules, you CAN'T hit anything beyond a range. That's because most of the weapons were not stabilized, or in the case of PPC's, they lose focus and can't do any damage.

It was a design decision to let projectiles travel as far as they do, and just do reduced damage.

I say, if you can't lock on, you don't get stabilized fire on the target. So recoil and wild shots.

Right now, everything is incredibly stabilized and grouped.

If they implemented it (recoil, non perfect accuracy), the whirlwind of anger and QQ would consume whole sections of the intertube.

Not that anybody gives two fracks, now that GTA V hits tomorrow.

#4 xMEPHISTOx

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,385 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

I would have rather had recoil added to the gauss then this charge up BS.

#5 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:32 PM

My understanding is that recoil is a result of changing the velocity of a given mass, so as PPC's are mostly energy, there's extremely little mass your required to move, thus, no recoil.

Missiles, AC's, and Gauss rounds on the other hand... Well there's some logic to that, depending on if you assume the weapons aren't mounted to redirect/counter recoil automatically, something equivalent to a cutts Compensator or a muzzle break on a machine gun...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 16 September 2013 - 02:34 PM.


#6 RandomLurker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 393 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 16 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

My understanding is that recoil is a result of changing the velocity of a given mass, so as PPC's are mostly energy, there's extremely little mass your required to move, thus, no recoil.

Missiles, AC's, and Gauss rounds on the other hand... Well there's some logic to that, depending on if you assume the weapons aren't mounted to redirect/counter recoil automatically, something equivalent to a cutts Compensator or a muzzle break on a machine gun...


Missiles would have very little recoil- they are already expelling mass in the form of rocket fuel, which takes care of most of it. It's really just ballistics that would be heavily affected. Regarding recoil absorbers on the weapon mounts, I don't recall the source material ever saying anything about it. Since you can spend extra tonnage for exactly that in the form of a Targeting Computer (the component includes the computer plus recoil and convergence machinery) though, I'd say it's a safe assumption that there's no compensation built into the mechs.

#7 Tangelis

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 442 posts
  • LocationMontreal

Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:29 PM

I wont pretend to understand physics but I would question just how much recoil there would be. The lightest mech of 20 tons has 40,000lbs of weight on it, that's a lot of weight in itself. But the common ac boats catapult or a jager has atleast 120,000lbs. Would the recoil not have to at the very least produce half that in order for the chassis to even feel the recoil? Sincere question...not trying to argue.

#8 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

The UAC5 might benefit this for the purpose of balance... of course that assumes the recoil is applied to 3PV just as well as 1PV...

#9 Farpenoodle

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 240 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:22 PM

You guys know recoil wouldn't actually help the convergence problems right? At least for the big alpha guns. I still say yes but only for immersions sake.

#10 Artgathan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 1,764 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:37 PM

Recoil would not have actually served to stop the high alpha problem. Consider that recoil only takes effect after the shots have been fired, allowing that first alpha strike to land exactly where you want it.

#11 OneEyed Jack

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,500 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostArtgathan, on 16 September 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Recoil would not have actually served to stop the high alpha problem. Consider that recoil only takes effect after the shots have been fired, allowing that first alpha strike to land exactly where you want it.

Neither the facts, logic, nor common sense will avail you in a place where people actually defend Ghost Heat and Gauss charge-up (separate from it's cool-down, in which it was apparently taking a nap because it isn't charging and loading a metal ball doesn't take that long, but for some reason the it can still explode from it's not-charged, charged capacitors exploding.... :huh: ).

#12 RandomLurker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 393 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:56 PM

View PostFarpenoodle, on 16 September 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

You guys know recoil wouldn't actually help the convergence problems right? At least for the big alpha guns. I still say yes but only for immersions sake.

Agreed. Not a big issue, but would be nice to have.

As for having to move the entire mech, it's safe to assume that it only has to move the gun. The guns will be mounted on gimbals so they can aim individually. In TT, this is specifically stated. In MWO, it's how you have convergence. Also, bear in mind that a TT gauss slug weighs roughly 200 pounds. Accelerated to 2000 feet per second (for reference, a .22 rifle is just under 1200 fps) or so, that's a lot recoil energy.

#13 CaveMan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,127 posts
  • LocationIn a leather flying cap and goggles

Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostRandomLurker, on 16 September 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Agreed. Not a big issue, but would be nice to have.

As for having to move the entire mech, it's safe to assume that it only has to move the gun. The guns will be mounted on gimbals so they can aim individually. In TT, this is specifically stated. In MWO, it's how you have convergence. Also, bear in mind that a TT gauss slug weighs roughly 200 pounds. Accelerated to 2000 feet per second (for reference, a .22 rifle is just under 1200 fps) or so, that's a lot recoil energy.


It's actually 125 kilograms at 2000 meters per second.

Also the gimbals the guns are mounted to are hard-mounted to the 'Mech's chassis. They're not free floating (except for stuff like the Centurion's gun arm) so you do have to account for the mass of the whole 'Mech. Problem is, something like a Jägermech firing a Gauss rifle, is going to be accelerated backwards at around 4 meters per second. 'Mechs don't roll around on wheels though, so what's going to happen is the torso is going to pitch back against the legs from the recoil.

But you've got this 3 ton gyro spinning in the 'Mech's chest that resists that torque. The amount of gyroscopic force that's available is basically arbitrary (these things are powered by nuclear reactors, after all). 'Mechs would have this weird double-recoil effect going on, where the weapon kicks the torso off-axis and then the gyro whips it back into line.

For MWO purposes it would basically be cosmetic, because for any gun big enough to cause serious recoil, the rate of fire is going to be much slower than the time the gyro takes to restore your aim.

#14 YueFei

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostCaveMan, on 16 September 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:


It's actually 125 kilograms at 2000 meters per second.

Also the gimbals the guns are mounted to are hard-mounted to the 'Mech's chassis. They're not free floating (except for stuff like the Centurion's gun arm) so you do have to account for the mass of the whole 'Mech. Problem is, something like a Jägermech firing a Gauss rifle, is going to be accelerated backwards at around 4 meters per second. 'Mechs don't roll around on wheels though, so what's going to happen is the torso is going to pitch back against the legs from the recoil.

But you've got this 3 ton gyro spinning in the 'Mech's chest that resists that torque. The amount of gyroscopic force that's available is basically arbitrary (these things are powered by nuclear reactors, after all). 'Mechs would have this weird double-recoil effect going on, where the weapon kicks the torso off-axis and then the gyro whips it back into line.

For MWO purposes it would basically be cosmetic, because for any gun big enough to cause serious recoil, the rate of fire is going to be much slower than the time the gyro takes to restore your aim.


That is actually *exactly* how Mechwarrior3 modeled the recoil physics of the autocannons, Gauss, and PPCs. As you fire, or as you are struck by autocannons or gauss or PPC, your mech is slewed up and to the side, and the torso wobbles like a top, before settling back into position.

#15 CaveMan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,127 posts
  • LocationIn a leather flying cap and goggles

Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:40 PM

View PostYueFei, on 16 September 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:


That is actually *exactly* how Mechwarrior3 modeled the recoil physics of the autocannons, Gauss, and PPCs. As you fire, or as you are struck by autocannons or gauss or PPC, your mech is slewed up and to the side, and the torso wobbles like a top, before settling back into position.


Yeah, but in MW3 it was completely exaggerated. Remember the third mission in that game where you have to fight an Orion? In version 1.0 before the multiplayer balance patches, the impact from the LB-10X would knock you down every time you got hit. Trying to fight an Annihilator was an almost comical exercise in futility.

It's still better than MWO's "perfect" recoil compensation, but it was too much.

#16 Blo0dGusHeR

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • LocationOHIO

Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:53 PM

View Postjohnyboy420, on 16 September 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

im just wondering why they dont put recoil on most weps like AC's, PPC's, Gauss, LRM's and SRM's rather than using stuff like ghost heat or useless mechanic's like a charge to gauss.

every mechwarrior but mech2 had a recoil too balance bigger weapon systems mech3 in my mind had some of the best wep recoils ever. one gun shot from a ppc make you jar like 3mm on reticule from the target making me have to readjust too take another shot i think dif weps shoud have more or less recoil

Example1 a thor in mech3 with a AC 20 in the left arm would make you jar to the left if you shoot it on top of that there AC's did like 6 shot burst's so when the recoil happened the gun kinda draged its damage so it wazn't so pin point

example2 but one thing they didnt do was upward recoil i think that you can run 6 AC 2's but it should recoil up if your weps are in like said LA and RA and make you have to pull down to try and stay on target with 6 AC 2's so you might in the end need too do burst's with a setup like that too hit the target more accurately with out just putting rounds in the wall's same goes for like 3 AC 2's in one arm depeneding what arm it is lets say RA it should recoil too the right same goes for weps in LA

example3 i think that if you use only 2 AC's the recoil be very min same for using 1 ac 5 but there shoud at some point when using more then one AC 5 or two AC 2 that the recoil starts heavy and makes it hard for the said battlemechs computer too keep the reticule on its target (just saying that too make it look more true)

example 4 and even tho the PPC is energy i think just for bal purposes it shoud have a recoil because it puts its damage in one volley that and from lore the ppc gun shot sounds violent

example 5 i think that the only gun that shoudn't be affected by recoil is lasers for 2 reasons 1 is that the lasers are no longer pinpoint and 2 they dont have the range or the damage too be a OP weapon and in RL lasers dont recoil that and they have them like mech 3 pulse las

in the end i think recoil make the game alot more interesting and harder for most players



Game is already pretty broken, so lets add recoil too! No! terrible idea. If I want to play with recoil I will go play CSGO or something.

#17 HammerSwarm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 754 posts

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:17 AM

Question: Isn't a mech a large mobile firing platform? As such wouldn't the manufacturers have planned for recoil?

#18 bloodnor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 735 posts
  • Locationwarrington Cheshire UK

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:24 AM

I voted yes but PGI have a lot more to fix and implement and balance before adding and new features.

#19 Funkadelic Mayhem

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 1,811 posts
  • LocationOrokin Void

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:29 AM

where is the option for "i dont vote in public polls"

#20 Volthorne

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,929 posts
  • LocationCalgary, Canadia

Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 16 September 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Neither the facts, logic, nor common sense will avail you in a place where people actually defend Ghost Heat and Gauss charge-up (separate from it's cool-down, in which it was apparently taking a nap because it isn't charging and loading a metal ball doesn't take that long, but for some reason the it can still explode from it's not-charged, charged capacitors exploding.... B) ).

The capacitors do recharge during the recycle. The whole "charge up to fire" thing has to do with prepping to discharge the build-up from the recycle (in this case we'll assume it involves stopping the flow of power to the capacitors and activating the electromagnet holding the slug in position).





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users