56 replies to this topic

[Tweaks]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 September 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

The fact that lasers do, quite definitely, produce recoil and are most certainly not immune to Newton's Third Law

For lasers to have any recoil, the light particles would have to be pushed out of the laser with a kinetic force that is strong enough to counter the mass or the 'Mech's part it's mounted on.

Photons do produce a certain force, but it's so small that it doesn't have any effect on objects with the mass of a 'Mech. If you can find me a laser that can actually push (and not just melt away) a single grain of sand using kinetic force, I'd like to see that.

Edited by Tweaks, 21 September 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Team Chevy86]

Hmm... I remember this mechanic from MW3. I forgot about it. It would certainly add more depth. I like it

Edited by Team Chevy86, 28 August 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[Lily from animove]

lol, Ac 20 lights with recoild. BOOM, mech slips 10m backwards.

also, Gauss would not have many recoil, since gauss is a electro magnetic field accelerated bullet.

Edited by Lily from animove, 28 August 2014 - 04:31 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Lily from animove, on 28 August 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

Gauss would not have many recoil, since gauss is a electro magnetic field accelerated bullet.

That is not true at all, for either coilguns (like the Gauss Rifle) or railguns (the other type of EM accelerator); both produce recoil when fired, just like conventional (e.g. chemically-propelled) firearms.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

From the Tech and Lore descriptions,

- All the systems that are involved in aiming, tracking, and maintaining the Pilots 'sight' on his chosen target are not physically connected to any actual weapon.
- Any movement of a weapon barrel either from recoil, loading, being struck by weapons fire will not effect what the Pilot is aiming at.
- These are all separate systems,
~ similar to how our current Tank gunners sight can stay on the target while the barrel, breach all move to reload and return to there firing position. (not effecting what the gunner is looking at)


Yes, there may/will be physical body movements of the Mech's components. But this will not/should not alter the targeting and tracking systems.
- From some of the posts it appears some may think that it (in these make believe machines) would be like holding a shotgun at the hip and shooting it. This is not how large military grade weapons systems operate, either in real life or this BattleTech world.

What we are not seeing in the game is the art work dynamics to show the AC's or other ballistic barrels actually 'recoiling' back into there mounts. Absorbing most if not all the 'shock' effect. Combined with all the systems and components that were mentioned earlier that are within the Mech to assist.
- This doesn't mean it's not modeled into the game, but just not being shown. This would require new animation effects for all the weapons systems, this could/might cause coding problems/desync with rapid fire systems, but without seeing it work, no way to tell at this time.
- Sadly the only effect we see is the muzzle blast of any weapon firing, (like a recoilless rifle) the actual Mech model doesn't seem to be rendered with any moving weapons systems at all. (moving barrels, flame and blast from the breach, any ejected casings, yes it's eye candy but sadly missing)

9erRed

[Loganauer]

9erRed, on 28 August 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Greetings all,

From the Tech and Lore descriptions,

- All the systems that are involved in aiming, tracking, and maintaining the Pilots 'sight' on his chosen target are not physically connected to any actual weapon.
- Any movement of a weapon barrel either from recoil, loading, being struck by weapons fire will not effect what the Pilot is aiming at.
- These are all separate systems,
~ similar to how our current Tank gunners sight can stay on the target while the barrel, breach all move to reload and return to there firing position. (not effecting what the gunner is looking at)


Yes, there may/will be physical body movements of the Mech's components. But this will not/should not alter the targeting and tracking systems.
- From some of the posts it appears some may think that it (in these make believe machines) would be like holding a shotgun at the hip and shooting it. This is not how large military grade weapons systems operate, either in real life or this BattleTech world.

What we are not seeing in the game is the art work dynamics to show the AC's or other ballistic barrels actually 'recoiling' back into there mounts. Absorbing most if not all the 'shock' effect. Combined with all the systems and components that were mentioned earlier that are within the Mech to assist.
- This doesn't mean it's not modeled into the game, but just not being shown. This would require new animation effects for all the weapons systems, this could/might cause coding problems/desync with rapid fire systems, but without seeing it work, no way to tell at this time.
- Sadly the only effect we see is the muzzle blast of any weapon firing, (like a recoilless rifle) the actual Mech model doesn't seem to be rendered with any moving weapons systems at all. (moving barrels, flame and blast from the breach, any ejected casings, yes it's eye candy but sadly missing)

9erRed

http://www.sarna.net...geting_computer

"Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help Mechwarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target."

It seems you are mistaken. A tank is not effected in the same way because it has a low center of gravity and it has treads to help compensate for the force generated by firing a shell. A 'mech has legs and myomers, so it compensates with recoil about the same way we would.


And to the guy saying gauss rifles don't have recoil...
http://www.sarna.net...avy_Gauss_Rifle
"Indeed, the recoil from the weapon is so great that the rifle cannot be mounted in a vehicle's turret or 'Mech's arms, as firing the rifle would essentially rip it off. A 'Mech firing the rifle may even be knocked down by the recoil."


Firing 2 AC20s or 2 gauss rifle's or 3 PPCs should cause a knockdown penalty in this game, or at least create a giant recoil.


This is what a gauss rifle is supposed to look like. That's how big it's supposed to be. -THAT- weapon should have some recoil.

Edited by Loganauer, 28 August 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[SICk Nick]

I believe a good portion of AC heat is due to the recoil mechanism.

[Strum Wealh]

SICk Nick, on 02 September 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

I believe a good portion of AC heat is due to the recoil mechanism.

Any heat produced by the weapons recoil operations would be the result of friction between its moving parts, and would be negligible next to the heat produced by ignition of propellants (for ACs & missile launchers) or the inductive heating of the coils (for Gauss Rifles) or "revving-up" the Fusion Engine in order to produce the needed energy spike (for PPCs).

[Draykin]

Even if a 'Mech were to move due to recoil, would that really affect what the pilot aims at? Let me use an example.

An Atlas-D walks onto the battlefield, barreling down onto a Jagermech-DD. The Atlas pilot aims for the Jagermech's RT, believing his opponent possesses an XL engine, making for an easier kill. The Atlas pilot then fires his AC/20, the shell launching into the Jagermech's RT. The AC/20 is located in the Atlas's RT, placed near the 'hip'. The 'recoil' would make the Atlas's torso turn to the right slightly. However, the pilot can compensate for this.

As the HUD only appears when the 'Mech is powered up, this limits what could possibly be showing the HUD to either the 'Mech, or the helmet of the Mechwarrior. However, when you look around the cockpit, (by pressing control), the HUD moves with your vision, therefore implying the the HUD is an element of the helmet.

Because of this, when the Atlas turns to the right slightly, the pilot compensates by keeping his eyes on the target and turning their neck, while keeping weapons aligned. This allows for the Atlas to quickly be righted and ready to resume firing.

Now, if all this is true... What's the point of adding recoil as a gameplay mechanic? Let it just be cosmetic and immersive. There are so many different ways that recoil could easily be countered in these fictional machines that I have to question if there is really a point to arguing about it.

[Revis Volek]

HammerSwarm, on 17 September 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Question: Isn't a mech a large mobile firing platform? As such wouldn't the manufacturers have planned for recoil?

Yea to think they would not have recoil suppression in the arms of the mech and such is silly....thing would get rocked to pieces every time you fired.Be breaking welds and losing nuts and bolts! lol Much like how a tank fires and the barrel slides back to absorb that energy.... granted tanks rock when they fire some but the mechs also dont stand still often have forward momentum and inertia when firing which would reduce the recoil IMO. But if its a shoulder mounted gun it should push the mech more then say a arm weapon or lower torso hardpoint, i dont think it should be much anywhere but the arms tho if any at all.

The mechanic itself would be better on something like MG's where instead of recoil you get some ramping of the barrel (going up uncontrollably the longer you fire) and maybe a little side swing of the torso from and AC20 launching like they do when they hit you but i would have to think these mechs have such things built in to assist with that.

Anyone know of any LORE citing such a topic? Loganauer took care if it! Look up^^^ But that is not the Gauss we have in this game currently that is the Heavy Gauss....not here until 3061?

Edited by DarthRevis, 26 September 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Draykin, on 26 September 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Even if a 'Mech were to move due to recoil, would that really affect what the pilot aims at? Let me use an example.

An Atlas-D walks onto the battlefield, barreling down onto a Jagermech-DD. The Atlas pilot aims for the Jagermech's RT, believing his opponent possesses an XL engine, making for an easier kill. The Atlas pilot then fires his AC/20, the shell launching into the Jagermech's RT. The AC/20 is located in the Atlas's RT, placed near the 'hip'. The 'recoil' would make the Atlas's torso turn to the right slightly. However, the pilot can compensate for this.

As the HUD only appears when the 'Mech is powered up, this limits what could possibly be showing the HUD to either the 'Mech, or the helmet of the Mechwarrior. However, when you look around the cockpit, (by pressing control), the HUD moves with your vision, therefore implying the the HUD is an element of the helmet.

Because of this, when the Atlas turns to the right slightly, the pilot compensates by keeping his eyes on the target and turning their neck, while keeping weapons aligned. This allows for the Atlas to quickly be righted and ready to resume firing.

Now, if all this is true... What's the point of adding recoil as a gameplay mechanic? Let it just be cosmetic and immersive. There are so many different ways that recoil could easily be countered in these fictional machines that I have to question if there is really a point to arguing about it.

Blah blah blah

Do you think recoil would make the game more skillful and challenging and fun is the question, Yes or No.

[Dimento Graven]

DarthRevis, on 26 September 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Yea to think they would not have recoil suppression in the arms of the mech and such is silly....thing would get rocked to pieces every time you fired.Be breaking welds and losing nuts and bolts! lol Much like how a tank fires and the barrel slides back to absorb that energy.... granted tanks rock when they fire some but the mechs also dont stand still often have forward momentum and inertia when firing which would reduce the recoil IMO. But if its a shoulder mounted gun it should push the mech more then say a arm weapon or lower torso hardpoint, i dont think it should be much anywhere but the arms tho if any at all.

The mechanic itself would be better on something like MG's where instead of recoil you get some ramping of the barrel (going up uncontrollably the longer you fire) and maybe a little side swing of the torso from and AC20 launching like they do when they hit you but i would have to think these mechs have such things built in to assist with that.

Anyone know of any LORE citing such a topic? Loganauer took care if it! Look up^^^ But that is not the Gauss we have in this game currently that is the Heavy Gauss....not here until 3061?

LOL, that's funny, here lemme change that quote for you to show you why I find that funny:

Yea to think they would not have a backup camera in a mech and such is silly....

or

Yea to think they would not have a scalable mini map in a mech and such is silly....

or

Yea to think they would not have the ability to your mech's feet in a mech and such is silly....

[XtremWarrior]

Would be a great way to discourage people from mounting very heavy weapons on small or medium mechs.
Use a scalar recoil system based on the equipped mech weight.

The Hunchback's hunch is here so it can absorb that massive recoil from an AC20 shot, right?
So that could also help to create some other Mech tweaks. Mechs designed to be AC platforms would benefit from that fact, like those good'ol Jagermechs having a lesser recoil.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 01 October 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[XtremWarrior]

JTSR, on 01 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

i put this in the category of what it is ... a "NERF"
at best its a how to make the game more challenging to play but it has nothing to do with physics so don't try to justify using science
or as an example the impact of an AC20 on a light would knock it over requiring the mech to stand up again

for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction if a 100 ton mech bounces around firing the AC a light would be knocked over being hit by the projectile

just because it has been used in a previous version does not mean it should be part of this game.

I like the fact that you said it's not physic then use the very physic law that imply recoil as an argument...
Yup, the cinetic strenght of the shell is not accurately implemented, so what? Let's forget everything else?

It would be great for immersion and add some skill. And also give the mechs designed to fire those freaking weapons some reason to be picked (ie: Hunchback with almost no recoil vs ShadowHawk with JJs)

[Rushin Roulette]

RandomLurker, on 16 September 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Missiles would have very little recoil- they are already expelling mass in the form of rocket fuel, which takes care of most of it.

That would be true only for open launchers where the Exhaust would be vented out of the rear of the laulnchers. As far as I can tell, all launchers in MWO are closed in the rear. Meaning... all that vented Exhaust is blasting Into the mech. This would actually cause some massive blowback recoil (try standing behind a Passenger jet when it starts the takeoff on a runway).

[Summon3r]

shocking this hasnt been implemented from day 1... and yea would love recoil over guass charge

[Strum Wealh]

JTSR, on 08 October 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

have to disagree if you look closely at the back of all mechs there are shrouded vents even for the heat sinks...case in point F117 stealth fighter has vanes that disperse the engine exhaust / thrust over a wider area reducing the exposure to heat seeker and if you have worked on military aircraft most attack helicopters also have a similar system on the engine exhaust

those aircraft that don't need to use engine thrust shroud the exhaust with dispersers to reduce accuracy of IR missiles

also you don't want the back end of your missile launchers exposed to fire so may be that's why you didn't recognize the shrouding as it also acts as amour.

However, the missile launchers in both BT and MWO are NOT typically open to the degree that they can function as recoilless weapons.

From Blood of Heroes (see here):

Quote

Alex waited for the targeting cross hairs to flash red, then hit the firing studs for both missile racks in quick succession. The Archer staggered under the multiple recoil of forty missiles streaking from the tubes.

Also:

Quote

Shadow Hawk IIC 7 - This Clan Snow Raven variant is used in space combat to support or repel boarding attacks. By carrying eight Improved Jump Jets tied into extended capacity fuel tanks, the Shadow Hawk IIC 7 can maneuver in space very easily. On the ground the smaller XL Engine used reduces the top speed slightly, but the jump jets easily compensate for this. To reduce handling problems in space the weapons array consists of low-recoil ER Large and Medium lasers with a Medium Pulse Laser. In fact the only recoil-inducing weapon is the ATM-6 in the right torso. Three tons of ammunition space allow the IIC 7 pilot to tailor the weapon load depending on the situation.

The recoil of firing twin LRM-20s is enough to make a 70-ton Archer "stagger", and the ATM-6 launcher is notable for being "the only recoil-inducing weapon" on the 45-ton Shadow Hawk IIC 7.
The venting seen on the backs of most 'Mechs would (presumably) be designed to let hot gases (e.g. missile exhaust) escape in such a way as to be less-easily targeted by IR seekers, but they are (evidently) not so much open as to allow for recoilless operation.