211 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

Kitane, on 26 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The God Emperor Of Mankind is not impressed with your candidates, OP.

Win.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 08 March 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

MWO wins. I hate Star Wars, and Pacific Rim was very ummmm boring. Reminded me Godzilla/Alien with Robots.

And how do you figure Battletech will win in space?
Assuming weapons and ship performance capability's being equal, how do you defeat an opponent that has 100 times the worlds as Battletech (The Empire has upwards of a million worlds Battletech under 3,000), and easily that figure in capital ships (Battletech at it's height has less than 6,000 warships, the Empire has some where between 3 and 8 times that number in Stardestroyers alone, which are the size of B-tech battleships)?

And this ignores the fact that Starwars out guns and out performs Battletech ships by a wide margin (never mind the shields).

[990Dreams]

StompingOnTanks, on 08 March 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Pacific Rim mechs would just crush everything. Anything that can withstand being punched by a Kaiju probably isn't going to go down with a few dozen Gauss Rifle hits. You'd need an orbital strike to kill those things.

1) Orbital strikes are possible as you said.
2) Pacific Rim is hopeless

At the beginning of the movie Gipsy Danger came up out of the water and appeared to be standing firmly. How on earth was it below the water before and then standing up? Does it shrink? Was it using Jump Jets (or whatever they call them)? Did it climb a really steep hill?

[Smitti]

Kitane, on 26 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The God Emperor Of Mankind is not impressed with your candidates, OP.

^^This.

The 40K universe would steamroll all others easily. Titans would wade through Mechs like Mechs wade through infantry. Master Chief? Officio Assasinorum should take him out. Fire off the Halo rings? Necrons would survive, Tyranids would also survive (the same way the Flood would initially survive, except the Tyranids require any kind of biomass to reproduce, not just intelligent life) and I'm pretty sure the Orks' genetic "knowledge" does not count as actual intelligence, so they should be safe. Besides they grow from fungus anyway haha.

Let's not forget the denizens of the warp, the Chaos Gods and Daemons. Or the C'Tan. Lots of god-like entities there.

A never-ending supply of grist for the mill (Tyranids and Orks), plus the combined technologies of the Tau and Eldar, strength of the Space Marines, manufacturing might of the Imperium, the list goes on.

Heck, even just the bugs could probably pull it off. There's no way you could kill every last Tyranid. They'd always be back, again and again until they finish the job.

Edited by Smittiferous, 08 March 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 08 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Hmm. If I recall a rebel force of no more than a few million people defeated the Death Star.......

And why dose this matter?

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Battletech at least 600 billion soooo it they win about 500 times over against the Empire.

Errr Starwars has worlds that are entirely covered in a single city, So I think they have the population advantage their, not to mention over 1,000 times the number of core worlds. (if we assume each Star wars world had 10 million on average 1 million worlds gives us 10 trillion or 17 times B-techs numbers, and thats majorly low balling Starwars)

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Also in Star Wars the Empires ships are easy to blow up (as no known Tie Fighter has shields) and the Star Destroyers just require you blow up the Generators that are the size of a Dropship. Or the fact that it only takes one lucky torpedo to blow up a moon size space station.

TIEs Granted however Battletech ships do not have shields either. Also the shield generators your talking about sad to say are in fact a common mistake, their actually sensor towers Though to be fair I do believe some shield projector elements where located their but their not primary shield generators.
Though your also making the mistake that you (I.e. B-tech) can easily take them out because we see a pair of fighters do it, but the ship in question was already being bombarded by the Rebel fleet (You know Ackbars line of "Concentrate all firepower on that Super stardestroyer"), and the fighters happened to sneak in a shot that took out one of the two sensor towers when the shield went down

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Going by most recent of both Lores Battletech wins because the Sith empire is defeated the Empire is a remnant of what it was (only containing 3 flag ships when at its height had at least 6000) and less than 200 Star Destroyers. The Rebels are still rebuilding from the New Sith Empire which is now destroyed, and lets see, the YuuZhan Vong only have organic ships which are easily defeated if you have a nice Bio chemical weapon around.

This is a dumb and weak argument and you know it. It all depends on when you do this you know, at the height of it's power or at the lowest, at Battletechs lowest thoughs 200 ISDs would be more than enough as the IS has NOTHING to counter them. Even in 3140 200 ISDs and their support ships are vastly more warships than the IS has at that time frame.

Worse your ignoring FTL speeds Star wars is vastly faster that battletech, and is far more flexible with it (I.e you do not have to wait a week to use it again), Never mind regular acceleration rates are also in Star wars favor for example the Rebel fighters in Ep IV took off made orbit and reached a gas Giant in under 15 minutes and the Imperial ambush in ROTJ went from behind Endor to behind the Rebels in moments. Worse Star wars has technology's that would make B-tech FTL useless (it also makes their not useable as well) as both do not like gravity wells.

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Also those shields can be pierced by an Ion Photonic blast or what we call in Battletech a PPC. So Battletech wins hands down when both Lores are at the latest. If a meager 100 rebel ships can destroy the Death Star with 1 torpedo, a 30 foot tall machine that has 9 times the fire power can do way more. Blasters in SW are the same as a Pulse laser in BT also. The weapons are barely superior and the most powerful nations are easily defeated in the simplest ways.

I would be careful with this idea, they might be similar they might not be, even so what kind of energy are they operating at vs what the other sides using? The one at Hoth was a Dropship sized weapon, so B-tech weapons are not going to be as powerful.

Might I ask where are you getting your numbers from? Where did the Rebels have 100 ships and how do you figure a battlemech has 9 times the firepower (and of what)?

As for the Torpedo attack that took out the death star, dumping a high yield warhead into a Reactor that has the output of main sequence stars is probably not going to be fun for any one, though Battletech has no real capability of pulling off such a feat. The First DS requires a weapon having very high maneuverability to do that turn, not something B-tech has, the Second is possible but only if it is under construction, if it was finished their is little the Rebels could of done to take it out.

Edited by Nebfer, 08 March 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[CyclonerM]

To put it very simply: Battletech may easily win on the ground, but on space and in a galaxy-sized campagin, it would a one-way victory for SW.

[Rogue Jedi]

it would be a mistake to assume Pacific Rim will be lower tech than the other franchises set in the distant future. somehow in the next 10 years the chinook Helocoptors lifting capacity is upgraded from 12 tons to 300+ tons enabling 8 chinooks to lift a jaeger weighing over 2,400 tons, I can only assume they discovered some powerful gravity or mass mainpulation technoligy and the rotor blades are there as an emergancy backup to save the chooper incase the system fails. The case of Gipsy Danger standing firm, above water in water deper than it is tall while fighting knifehead also suggests some form of powerful gravity or mass manipulation.

based on this advanced technoligy and the shear size of the Jaegers I am forced to conclude that Battlemechs would not stand a chance, if a Highlander can kill another mech by landing on it with its 90 ton weight imagine what a 1,500+ ton jaeger landing or even stepping on your atlas would do.

the same gravity/mass minuplation tech could be applied to drasticaly enhance fighter aircraft.

my conclusion,
based on reaserch, some maths and my advanced knowledge of Star Trek and Star Wars technoligy


there would be no clear winner

Battletech has the best armored infantry, however armor is insignificant next to the power of the force or a phaser pistal set to setting 16 (powerful enough to vaporise a small mountin).

in ground battles Jaegers would beat battlemechs (by standing on them), Jedi would beat Jaegers (ether by telopathicly disrupting the neural link or using telekenesis, a phaser would beat a any of them, while an unarmored starfleet officer fireing the phaser could be killed by anything

Star Wars would win glalactic domination, they have by far the fastest ships at faster than light speeds over galactic distances

Star Trek would win any star system they contended due to vastly superior sublight speed (the A-Wing, the fastest fighter featured in the Star Wars films, has a max speed ot about mach 2, compared to Star Trek ships standard speed of full impulse being 25% the speed of light), Star Trek ships outranging most Star Wars or Battletech ship (combat ofter takes place at ranges of 1,000s of kilometers) and the fact what while most Star Wars ships have sheilds useful against lasers few have shields useful against any kind of projectile, while battletech ships have no sheilds and I suspect Pacific Rim has few combat space ships.

[Linksdx]

well heres a thought for you guys When is the sw fleet/ army gonna be based before the movies in the movies or arfter the movies since arfetr the movie they had star destroyers with X-wing fighters in them witch kinda broke mutch of the logic you see and you fogot imperial plan B Launch all the fighters so they will just crash into you also yea around the time of the GSW most ships and fighters had some type of shield it was mainly the TIE seris of fightters and bomber that didnt (imperials belived in mass production that and you fogot the rules of movie's the good guy allways wins if you go by the book and games the imperials have better teck and training and about those 150 ships? look at the wound history a small group of highly motivated highly trained people can change history(yea i gotta argue for SW here thats what started me into scifi)

[Linksdx]

Marack Drock, on 13 March 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Then we look into physics. Star wars loses because non of their Homing weapons could possibly work in space. Physics doesn't allow it.

Second the person who blew up the Death Star was a farm boy you had never flown an X-Wing in his life. And as far as shields go, well Darth Vader made short work of those shields on those ship when he killed them in a single volley.

Technology is barely superior in SW because of physics. None of their vessels can work in space either (was just looking. They have no side thrusters on any of them for turning the vessel so how do they turn? Those engines will only make them go one direction and no other?) So Battletech (if physics existed) will win.

ok first the incom t-65 x-wing had the similar controls as the older t-16 sky hopper which is why skyhopper were used as X-wing traing vehicles witch luck had spent most of his life piloting

next about the X-wing and turning . if i remember correctly the engines have nozzles that control the direction fo the thrust for tuning that and with 4 engines you can control turning by turning off certain engines to turn so that is some of the way turning could work they also have repulsor technology which probably help in someway XD
and misses ....ok i couldn't find enough info to set a good argument there so someoen els can do that .....btw have you guys seen the amount of super weapon in the starwars universe there loads XD

and about the shields and weapons you gotta remember its the same as here large are more powerful then med same in the star wars universe . that and Vader was in a prototype model witch has more powerful blasters that and from what iv seen the power could be transferd to different systems and so he most likely increased power to weapons to casue more dmage and the sheilds on he X-wing could be moved aroudn most liekly they had all power to forward shelds so that the turrets that were firign at them fromt he front didnt damage them

[CyclonerM]

Just a thought. If a Dropship managed to slip behind a full flight of TIE fighters (escorted by its own Aerospace Fighters) it may well be blown up by the Death Star's turrets. IIRC, they can destroy a X-Wing in a few shots, so i guess an intense barrage fire may destroy any incoming dropship. The same could be said for SW's spaceships' turrets.

[Strum Wealh]

DavidHurricane, on 24 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Who would win when you put Halo, MechWarrior, Star Wars, and Star Trek in the same ring? Any factions allowed, and don't only base your analysis on size (I only included Star Trek because of it's [advanced] weapons)!

EDIT: I meant to put a poll .

EDIT: Added (you guessed it) Pacific Rim, in favor of Halo (sorry Halo fans!)

So, it's the original versus thread, minus several options and plus Pacific Rim?

Also, why should Star Trek be included in this thread's discussion, as they have effectively no significant ground forces to speak of, much less any mecha (at least Star Wars has the AT-AT and AT-ST)?

[Linksdx]

Marack Drock, on 13 March 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

In Space no matter how man engines you have on your rear side, if they are at the same angle as the others they will not change the position of the ships direction. They will only go in one direction unless an engine is pointed at a different angle. Physics will spell the end of Star Wars. Battletech ships have side thrusters to change their direction. Star Wars does not. Next. Also only about... 5 ships in Star Wars were ever killed by turrets. We saw in Episode 4 the ships going straight at the turrets, and were never hit. So we know the turrets are pathetic wastes of Imperial cash. Also Imperial ships cannot "Intensify the Forward Fire Power" and hit an A-Wing heading straight in ONE DIRECTION towards them. Imperials suck and are easy prey for anyone.

Also... Hehehe... Star Wars has another issue. The most powerful land object (next to Jedi) the At At, they shoot at and say "That armor is too strong for blasters!" 2 minutes later they shoot a few rounds at it a BOOM!! How does knocking it over change the ARMOR which they said was to strong. So the Large Pulse lasers can take out an AT AT in about 10 shots (judging from the Rebels weakest ship the Snow Speeder, which could not have flown on the planet). So the minute physics and the sad excuse of military comes to effect in Star Wars, Battletech will win.

Seriously the Imperials must be the most incompetent Military force in the galaxy. They got beaten by Teddy Bears... If the most powerful forces can be beaten by Teddy Bears then Battlemechs will win hands down.

Because star wars unlike battle tech has plot armour ..... I mean all movies have plot armour and if you wanna go by movie information then let's only go by what battle tech info we know that been in movies and cut scenes

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 11 March 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Own all the Star Wars Books from before Episode 1 to the rise of Darth Krayt.

Ion Cannons are literally a PPC.

According to Episode 4 book no more than 150 ships destroyed the Death Star. The Death Star's shields are just giant towers that can be blown up with regular blasters (Kinetic energy which is the same a Battletech Laser). Star Wars also ignores physics more even than Battletech (100 times over). In any reality an object moving faster than the speed of light cannot turn as or do anything because the minute it hits Light speed it converts to light itself. Another greater speeds mean less maneuverability by the Laws of Physics.

err 150 ships did not destroy the death star, did you even see the movie? A single ship managed to fire off a torpedo into a exhaust shaft of the main reactor, this feat is impossible for B-tech as thier missiles do not have that kind of agility to turn 90 degrees in under 2 seconds. Death star II was under construction (also note it started being built after the 1st one was destroyed) when they destroyed it. The movies use around 30 or so fighters (stated in movie) for the first death star, what where the other 120 or so doing? According to the Wikis, they did not have 150 ships present, under 60 at best, and if that info is to be taken they where dealing with the escorts while the units we seen in the movie did their work.

As for FTL maneuverability well obviously they are not going to fighting at FTL speeds, but they have far better acceleration profiles and a faster FTL which allows them to respond to attacks or a faster massing of their own forces. Not to mention their FTL system is much more flexible than battletechs. And sub light Starwars is noticeably more faster, though to be fair their combat speeds are not much different that battletechs, but their cruising speeds are vastly faster, as it took the Rebels less than 15 minutes to

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My argument may be weak but guess what.. if 150 tiny ships with only 2 different kinds of weapons (all of which exist in the BT universe) can blow up the Death Star (because the Imps are just idiots and have to make stuff with weaknesses that make no sense) then BT easily could (especially in a world where Physics exist because in the real world, Mechs are possible -the army is experimenting in them and have made life size Humanoid walking drones- X-Wings would never be able to lift off of the ground do to physics -or any Star Wars ship for that matter meaning air is non existent for any defense on a planet- Star Destroyers can be defeated by anything on top of them -Millennium Falcon avoided sensors by landing on it- shields are pierced by a PPC and in space a PPC would not generate barely any heat because space is absolute 0* degrees, etc).

Physics is irrelevant, you do know about Star wars anti gravity tech right? You want to deal with physics issues battletechs has quite a number of it's own you know, so that is not a good argument to use.

One thing to note while battletech may have a similar system dose not mean they operate on the same principles or even on the same power levels, I.e. A Heavy Naval PPC is not necessarily as power full as a Ion cannon on a Stardestroyer. Furthermore Turbolasers are not lasers (particle weapons if the wiki is to believed)

Also Space is not at absolute zero degrees , but 3 degrees above it, and the temp of space also depends on where you are, closer to a star the hotter it will be, the Apollo space craft rotates every once and a while to even out the crafts temperature, and many other space craft need heating and or cooling systems to help keep them at operating temperatures, so heat is a big issue in space (which is the worst medium to get rid of heat, and I believe SW and Trek get around it via "Magic" IIRC subspace)

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Star Wars would never win a land war because that only leaves AT-ATs as a good weapon but as Star Wars has no ships capable of flying on a world with physics they could never deploy them. Jedi can be easily defeated by battledroids or 10 Clone troopers (Ki Adi Mundi episode 3 was killed by no more than 10 and he was watching them and blocking with his saber when it happened). Episode 2 all but like 30 Jedi were slain. General Grievous who has no force abilities killed over 30 jedi many of which were High Council members. One nice PPC (or 2) would instantly kill a Jedi. Jedi are limited in their power and an object like a mech would be very difficult for even 5 jedi to stop (Anakin the most powerful among them couldn't hold back an explosion in the animated series). The Jedi are easily defeated at range.

Most Jedi do not take well to tank weapons, nor do they fair well to sudden betrayal.
I would not be to surprise as Jedi for the most part are commanders, diplomats and spec ops kind of guys, not line infantry. Put them in where they have to face lots of infantry and heavy weapons it's not to surprising they suffer. Precong or not you will be hard pressed to defend your self from dozens of attackers at the same time and from different directions.

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Star Trek wins (except if they enter atmosphere then the ship would crash and burn and blow up because of physics).

Star Wars vs BT.. Bt can win because they could land a simple dropship on the Star Destroyer send mechs out and just destroy it with PPCs and never even have to destroy its shields.

Relay are you this stupid? This might work until Said ISD decides to accelerate at 10Gs and we watch all the mechs fly right off, oops. Heck 3Gs would make it almost impossible for a B-tech ship to do that kind of tactic any way... And this ignores that mech PPCs are possibly too week to seriously damage an ISD in a reasonable time frame. And how are you going to land a Dropship on a ISD with out it getting shot down any way? And a ISDs weapons are way more powerful than B-tech Naval weapons which pop them like balloons (which entertainingly they are from a volume stand point). After all a single ISD can reduce the surface of a world to rubble in around 24 hours, while one can argue over the exact values the end result still is way more firepower than what battletech capital weapons do.
The Best bet is to have it get tractored in to it's massive hanger bay and board it that way, but battlemechs would be all but useless their, for that you would need infantry and lots of them as a ISD has a crew of over 30,000 and has almost 10,000 stormtroopers on top of that, though Battle armor would even that out a fair bit, as IIRC an ISD only has 40 Zero-G troops on hand (assuming they are equipped with them), which would give Battle armor a run for it's money.

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Star Trek always wins because the phasers and stuff. Battletech wins any land battle and even in space there is an easy possibility that it could win. If 1 million pathetic rebel ships can destroy the Imperial Military in one strike (episode 6) then 5 mil battlemechs landed on the death star (with 2 times as much fire power) could win. Star Wars stands no chance on land (and in a place where physics exist) their ships are useless (also if physics existed the Torpedo that destroyed the Death star would never be able to turn because their is no wind in space to turn it and energy can only be shot in one direction). Physics would instantly mean that Star Wars loses. Battlemechs are a physical possibility (the Jumpships never enter the atmosphere of a planet and I've seen Dropships and they are possible in flight because of their shape) etc.

Star Trek is (in the physical world) the only rival.

Star trek would lose out just as bad with "Physics" as star wars would. Heck their engineering is rather bad at times, critical systems taken out by a hand grenade equivalent, reactor safety gear almost never works, control consoles have an alarming tendency to explode, ect...

In real life a battlemech would make a very pore weapons platform, 12 meters tall means a large area to armor (much more than a real life tank) so for a given weight armor is going to be thinner, lots of moving parts means reliability issues, line of sight issues due to height, and ground pressure issues... Heck Battletech ships would not operate either, as almost all of their ships generate more power than is possible in real life given their fuel type and amount used.

Heck where do you get the 1 million rebel ships destroying the Empire? In reality the rebels only engaged a small force of imperial forces (likely the local sectors ISD contingent, and Vaders personal force), And this was a significant chunk of the rebel fleet. The Empire died because the figure holding it together died and it devolved into civil war, which depleted the mobile Imperial forces. All the while the Rebels gained in power. Heck battletech canonically dose not even have 5 million battlemechs, it at best has under 200,000, out side of the star league era which even then more than likely dose not have more than half a million total. And 5 million battlemechs having twice as much firepower as the death star? are you on crack? Do you have any idea how much power the deathstar has?

I'm starting to think your making things up, as a person who supposedly has all the books are making a lot of errors.

The problem is your back pedaling, you have no answer to their massive speed or military advantages over battletech by using the red herring of "physics". The Debate assumes that all participants function as we see them operate/or as they do in their universe, unless specifically part of the debate which it is not (The OP did not ask).

[990Dreams]

Strum Wealh, on 13 March 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

Also, why should Star Trek be included in this thread's discussion, as they have effectively no significant ground forces to speak of, much less any mecha (at least Star Wars has the AT-AT and AT-ST)?

They have lots of explosives. And handheld phasers that can wipe out small mountains.

[990Dreams]

Marack Drock, on 14 March 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

In SPACE NOTHING CAN TURN 90 DEGREES IN LESS THAN A SECOND! Physics will not allow it. Torpedo is out!

You're the one who seems to be yelling. Technically it can, but it'd be tough to make it.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 14 March 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

In SPACE NOTHING CAN TURN 90 DEGREES IN LESS THAN A SECOND! Physics will not allow it. Torpedo is out!

really we see it turn 90 degrees in the movie, And I assume it did the same in the novels, ergo it can, real life physics plays no role here, otherwise battletech fails just as hard as Star wars. Hint their both fictional universes.
Oh and by the way the crew of Gemini 8 would like to talk to you as they experienced a full 360 degree revolution every second with their RCS malfunction they had. So you can do a 90 degree turn in a second in real life, Now you may have a point, with momentum... The fact is you can make a object do what we see, but making it will be very difficult with current real life tech.

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Next Missiles cannot work in space because they rely on air movement to turn.

Might want to tell NASA that, no don't bother I can go across the river and tell them my self, as I live right across from cape Kennedy, and I can hear them laughing at this idea. The answer to this problem is so simple even the Aggregat Four rocket used it in WW2, also see below.

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Again Engines pointed at the same angle will not be able to change the angle of the ship's destination.

Ever heard of Thrust Vectoring? Maneuvering Thrusters? Reaction Wheels? Obviously you haven't, and how do you explain battletech ships? They have engines in the same locations with no visible secondary engines so B-tech ships as well can not turn... If you say Battletech has these but star wars dose not, please put up evidence of this.

Ever heard of a game called Kerbal space program?, the game allows you to fly your own space program (design, build and fly your own rockets), using real life physics (to the best of their ability's), steering a rocket with Gimbaling engines is vastly easier than one with out, RSC also allows one to steer a rocket, as dose reaction wheels

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EWOKS!!!! Defeated the supposedly superior Empire... EWOKS. Also if Battlemechs are so horrible why does the Confederacy (spider droids), Galactic Empire (At St, AT AT, At Pt, etc), Republic (At Rt). Mechs will still win do to sheer amount of numbers.

It's a fictional universe one in which the laws of Physics have been bent to allow for mechs to be a viable combat unit. the same in Star wars, though like Battletech Starwars has a considerable number of more conventional vehicles, though Star wars also uses a number of hover tanks (largely using anti gravity tech and not skirts and or fans).

Also what numbers? I gave you the amount of battlemechs in the BTU their small vastly smaller than what Starwars can bring.
Also please provide the size of a battletech military...

Ewoks are in universe are not something you want to mess with, Though in real life pit a human vs a bear or gorilla in a death match and in close quarters, with the bears getting the Drop on you, even real life Soldiers will do poorly. Now give them weapons...
Also I believe the previous garrison did worn the units that replaced them (which we see in the film) and they where ignored. Even so they where winning until the AT-STs where taken out.

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I miscommunicated there were at least a couple of a million in Episode 6 though. According to Wookiepedia there were 30 Star Destroyers, 1 Dreadnought, 1 Com Ship, and 2 Battle Cruisers and 1000+ Tie Fighters VS. 650 Rebel Starfighters, 30 Rebel cruisers (18 of which were as small as Corellian Corvettes). They were astoundingly outnumbered and still won. So close to 1 mil on Rebel side and close to about 2 or 3 mil on the Empire side (as a crew of a Star Destroyer is about 800 thousand).

Numbers are not the only factor going into a fight, Technology, Training, Tactics, Skill and a bit of Luck all play their part. So you mean crew, sure millions perhaps but in general we do not talk about over all manpower in naval fights but in terms of ships, the size of the crews do not inherently dictate how a naval fight will go.

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In order for a debate to work you must take it to a common ground. A real world scenario where PHYSICS exist. As a Battlemech, Jumpship, and Dropship are within more physical possibility they will have the advantage (also because Star Ships in a world of physics would only be able to move in 1 direction).

That's why it's best to assume both sides work as advertised. It's rather unfair to go off and say Oh i'm sorry your made up ships do not work because real life says so, but my slightly less unrealistic made up ships get a free pass, so you lose. You see a problem here? The problem is, your taking two fictional universes and pitting them against each other, sure one side is slightly more realistic but that dose not give it a get out of jail free card with it's own issues, then you now have to face arguments of how plausible are various aspects of each... And the fact that our understanding of the universe is less than perfect as well, so whose to say that either one has found a way to cheat a bit?

And no Battletech ships are just as impossible all of their engines will not work in real life. a 500,000 ton warship (which is rather light wight for it's size) each day only uses 39.5 tons of liquid hydrogen at 1G, this is out right impossible in real life, key facts the energy expended results in an FTL exhaust (well not really but darn close) and far exceeds what hydrogen can provide given the used amount.

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Edit:Now I am done because this is not a debate. This is 2 people yelling at eachother with neither accepting the other's opinion no matter how true either one is.

Concession Accepted

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Also- Antigravity is the weakest arguments ever. My "weak statements" were not as utterly pathetic as that was.

Says the man whose only argument is to cry real life physics says it will not work when talking about a hypothetical fight between two made up universes, when the side he favors clearly will lose. And no it is not lame it is a simple fact that Starwars has anti gravity tech and battletech dose not.


Lets put it this way what capability's has either Starwars or Battletech (you can do this with others) been shown or stated to be capable of doing.
FTL Speeds?
Sub light speeds?
Ground combat capability?
Capital ship weapons capability's?
Defensive capability's?
Fleet Size?
Manufacturing capability's?
Number of worlds it owns?
Engineering capability's?
What do you recon for each of these categorys?

Heres some basics
FTL Speeds?
-Star wars can cross 100,000 light years in a matter of days, though less well traveled paths it might take a year or so. Battle tech at best 3,000 light years per year in 30 light year hops
Sub light speeds?
-Star wars has shown that it can cross hundreds of thousands of KM in mere minutes, for battletech smiler travel distances will take several hours. Though typical combat speeds are not much different however.
Ground combat capability?
-Is far more even, though Star wars tanks are far faster than B-tech units, For example the Juggernaut can reach speeds of 160kph (thats a 10/15 mech), Saber tanks can reach 320kph, where as most B-tech hover tanks are 90 to 160kph and the vast majority of battlemechs have combat speeds under 150kph.
Problematic for battletech is that a number of Starwars units are shielded. And in terms of numbers starwars has a much larger army. Though both sides weapons can hurt each other, and over all battletech latter on has a powered infantry advantage.
Capital ship weapons capability's?
-In battletech Capital weapons can be calculated to single digit kilotons, 100 kiloton nukes can kill most ships, in Star wars At the lowest calculations pit the invisible small "trench" guns on a ISD in the single digit kilotons, of which an ISD has dozens of them to say nothing of the larger visible guns like the ones on the sides, higher calculations and stated ability's can be high gigaton range.
Defensive capability's?
-Battletech uses armor plates, Star wars, their ships use at lest two different kinds of shields (Ray shields stops energy weapons, though Strong enough Ion cannons can penetrate, Particle shield stop physical impacters), as well as Armor plates. The shields can stop in universe attacks for an indeterminate amount of time, though concentrated fire can drop a localized area for a short time.
Fleet Size?
-Star wars at lest 20,000 Star destroyer sized vessels, with hundreds of thousands of smaller ships, Battletech at it's height, around 5,000 or so warships, thousands of combat dropships, with tens of thousands of transports.

Manufacturing capability's?
-Star wars Built over 20,000 Star destroyers in under 30 years, has a number of worlds ringed by orbital ship yards, never mind the hundreds of thousands of smaller ships all of which are the size of B-tech warships in terms of length. Battletech at it's height dose not even have that kind of ship production capability's. At best they can build a hand full of ISD sized ships each year.
Number of worlds it owns?
-Star wars 1 million +, Battletech under 3,000
Engineering capability's?
-Star wars can build 18km long star ships built mobile space stations that are in excess of 160km in diameter (some sources indicate the second one was around 900km in diameter), has planet wide city's; Battletech, the largest ships are under 2km long, and dose not have any where close to planetary wide city's and never mind items like the death star.

Edited by Nebfer, 14 March 2014 - 06:32 PM.

[Linksdx]

Marack Drock, on 14 March 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

The problem with debating which will win over the other will always depend on the universe. Since each has its own universe, the owner's universe will always win. If BT is put in SW then SW wins. If SW were to be put in BT, then BT would win (mainly due to the fact AND I LOOKED THIS UP, STAR DESTROYERS RELY ON THEIR REAR ENGINES ONLY taking out the most powerful fleet in the galaxy and none of their ships could ever work in an atmosphere do to gravity, no ailerons, elevators, or rudders for turning etc).

In reality this argument cannot be resolved unless taken to 1 single ground.

.........why on earth would a star destroyer enter the atmosphere anyway thoa thats the point of its transports and fighters theres literally no point to it

[King Arthur IV]

death star and the force = op

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 14 March 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

The problem with debating which will win over the other will always depend on the universe. Since each has its own universe, the owner's universe will always win. If BT is put in SW then SW wins. If SW were to be put in BT, then BT would win (mainly due to the fact AND I LOOKED THIS UP, STAR DESTROYERS RELY ON THEIR REAR ENGINES ONLY taking out the most powerful fleet in the galaxy and none of their ships could ever work in an atmosphere do to gravity, no ailerons, elevators, or rudders for turning etc).

In reality this argument cannot be resolved unless taken to 1 single ground.

The Owners universe is a red Herring they are not involved in this particular debate, nor are they writing one.

Just because Star wars, Star trek, Halo, Mass effect or what ever other universe, enters the battletech universe dose not means battletech wins, sure if you want to assume that they now have to play by B-tech rules you might have a point, but that is not what is being assumed here and never was, as it kinda defeats the purpose of the debate if one or more sides has to put away their stuff because of oh I'm sorry your stuff no longer works. How can you even debate something in a hypothetical if both sides will cease to function upon entering the opposing sides universe?

On a more micro level It's like saying a B-tech Lola III Destroyer facing against the Death Star (DS) will win because the DS no longer is capable of even functioning one bit and all it's crew are dead and the station is turned off. What kind of debate can their be? Of course the Lola III will win, the DS is just a large paper weight at this point (though I suppose one could ask how long will it take to reduce the DS to scrap), or Vice Versa if the Lola entered the Star wars universe.

No the fairest way to do this is to assume that all sides will function as depicted at all times (unless you want to throw one side a wrench), and go off their displayed feats (which can be a issue at times) and what is stated to be canon (I.e. what is allowed to be used by series X by that series creators). Using real life as a medium is pointless as most if not all universes make stuff up (and or bends reality to suit it's narrative) along the way and as such that and what ever supports it will stop working also.

And again Provide evidence that an ISD can not turn, real evidence, like in universe evidence, RoTJ has a rather well known segment that says other wise...

Keep in mind that Starwars has anti gravity tech. Also Most Star destroyers do not operate in an atmosphere (though it seems most could if they wanted to), their are some that do sure but their not the more well known kind. Even so it can still turn as theirs thrust vectoring and changing the out put of one engine on one side that will work as well (to a degree).

Heck we see the Executor, a much larger ship than the typical ISD turn at a rapid rate in RoTJ, when it did it's plunge. So yes they can turn, if they can not how the heck did it do what it did? So please explain that one.

Might I also ask why are we even assuming it's an atmospheric fight? Battletech warships do not operate in one as well (explicitly so), so why even go their? So a lack of aerodynamic turning ability's is a rather moot point, at which this is it seems is yet another of your Red Herrings.

SO ANSWER THE REAL QUESTIONS: How will Battletech win in a strategic scale fight against starwars assuming all tech works as it should? Or Star Trek and ect.

Edited by Nebfer, 15 March 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[WildmouseX]

King Arthur IV, on 15 March 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

death star and the force = op

Death Star + Force < Borg Cube + Q.

with that said, the Spaceballs world own everyone!