Jump to content

Ams Assist Reward


64 replies to this topic

Poll: Ams Assist Reward (214 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want a reward for protecting team members by your AMS?

  1. Yes (192 votes [89.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 89.72%

  2. No (22 votes [10.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.28%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Gray 46rus

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • LocationKUNPP, Russia

Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:11 PM

What about a small C-bill/EXP reward for destroying missiles that threating team members?

#2 PocketAces

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 175 posts
  • LocationEverywhere yet nowhere

Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:46 PM

I think this is a great idea, my locust 3M (2 x AMS) kept an Atlas in the fight longer as I zipped back to him every time I saw incoming missiles targeted on him.

#3 FinsT

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 241 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:14 AM

Voted "no".

4 reasons:
- a single AMS effect is quite minor;
- there is already a reward for any significant usage of AMS, taking the form of more assists and kills: over time, now and then it will happen that using AMS allowed to kill more enemies (and correspondedly to have more assists; there can't be an assist scored if a target was not killed during the match);
- there is a need to keep the system relatively simple. If to reward significant usage of AMS, ECM, 360 degrees targeting module, BAP (extra sensor range), headshots, scouting/spotting, enhanced sensor range module, etc etc - it would be increasingly difficult to properly balance things. And for me, AMS is one of least important things to reward (much due to previous reason);
- AMS shoots down missiles no matter whether missiles are going to hit their target, or not. Whenever the target is too fast for missiles to connect, or whenever the target "hides" behind an obstacle, or simply drops out of attacker's missile lock and moves away, - AMS shoots down these nonetheless, but should not be rewarded for doing so, since no matter if it'd shoot these down or not, - it wouldn't help the team. In fact, it would be reducing chances to win by a extremely very tiny amount - because by shooting down "harmless" for the team missiles, AMS spends its ammo, - and it might run out of ammo later and be unable to shoot down missiles later, some of which may kill or cripple friendlies and thus reduce chances of winning (for the whole team).

Sorry...

#4 Gray 46rus

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • LocationKUNPP, Russia

Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:19 AM

View PostFinsT, on 22 October 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

- a single AMS effect is quite minor;
So I don't suggest a huge reward

View PostFinsT, on 22 October 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

- there is already a reward for any significant usage of AMS, taking the form of more assists and kills: over time, now and then it will happen that using AMS allowed to kill more enemies (and correspondedly to have more assists; there can't be an assist scored if a target was not killed during the match);
That's true for you. I am talking about spending AMS ammunition to protect team members instead of yourself. Just a little motivation to tactical cooperation.
Saying, interseption of 10 missles (that's not targeted to you) in 10 seconds is a minimal threshold to receive about 100 C-bills and 10 EXP.

View PostFinsT, on 22 October 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Sorry...
That will not save you :D

Edited by Gray 46rus, 22 October 2013 - 05:20 AM.


#5 FinsT

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 241 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:29 AM

View PostGray 46rus, on 22 October 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

...
That's true for you. I am talking about spending AMS ammunition to protect team members instead of yourself. Just a little motivation to tactical cooperation.
...
That will not save you :)

That's true for me AND for others. Example. In a match, i never get any single missile fired at me. However, i stick close to my friends, some of whom have tons of missiles fired at them. My AMS shoots down aplenty, and SAVES a life of one of my friend for a while; that friend manages to kill 1 more enemy than he would otherwise be able to. Which gives HIM a kill. Which might give ME an assist, - if i damaged that particular enemy, - or might not - if i didn't. But in the same time, that additional kill most likely will give 1 more assist to a few other members of the team, - whomever were doing some damage to the enemy.

Sure, some people have difficulty understanding this. Seemingly, yourself included.

I imagine now you'd be triple angry at me. Sigh... Talking out one's honest opinion is sometimes very unrewarding to oneself. Say, can you invent a way for MWO to reward XP and c-bills to peopel who talk completely honestly and openly in the forum? If you can, - sign me in! I'll be your biggest fan! :D

Cheers, man.

#6 fandre

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 218 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:37 AM

I don't see the problem in your description. Rewarding the use of AMS would not affect you realy.

On the other hand, I like the idea of an air-defense supporter. It would also offer a new role for light mechs.

Voted yes.

Edited by fandre, 22 October 2013 - 06:38 AM.


#7 rageagainstthedyingofthelight

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Rage
  • Rage
  • 306 posts
  • LocationTerra Therma, shut down

Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:49 AM

I voted yes because I want all rewards possible.

Would be nice to make carrying AMS more enticing.

#8 DEMAX51

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 2,269 posts
  • LocationThe cockpit of my Jenner

Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM

FinsT, by your logic nothing should be rewarded other than kills and assists, as everything we do just boils down to us helping our team kill more things...

TAG/NARC reward? Why? By tagging and narcing we're helping our team get more kills and assists!
Savior kill reward? Why? It's already an assist!
Spotting reward? Why? ASSISTS!
Component destruction? ASSIST!

See?

As to your other reasons:

"A single AMS effect is quite minor" - So? Why is that a reason not to reward it? If anything that just means that 'Mechs with a single AMS won't get a big reward for using it.

"A need to keep the system relatively simple" - Why do we "need" to keep it simple? I kind of want a wide array of rewards so that people are encouraged to use a wide array of tactics and loadouts. If we only reward one or two things everybody will do those one or two things (which is why Heavies and Assaults are the most commonly used 'Mechs at the moment, as it is easier to get the currently offered rewards by using them).

"it would get increasingly difficult to balance things" - Balancing c-bill & XP rewards isn't that hard, and it has a much smaller impact than balancing weapons and 'Mechs.

"and for me, AMS is one of the least important things to reward" - Just because you don't see its value doesn't mean that others won't - which is why I want to see more diverse rewards (so that different people can value different things and still earn c-bills and XP accordingly!)

"AMS shoots down missiles whether they're going to hit or not..." - Really, the only valid point you make, but I would assume any AMS rewards given would be so small that this really wouldn't matter much.

#9 SgtMagor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 3,542 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:46 PM

agreed seems reasonable to be compensated for use of your ams by team mates. get like a defensive shield bonus

#10 Hop per

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 39 posts

Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:55 PM

@Demax51
If I could like your post 100 over times I would. Lets do everything we can to diversify play styles.

A scout could then actually think about this as a role or play style, which would be interesting. Would make me think a little differently about my Locus and Spider builds. It would also be one of those 'soft counters' to LRMs.

Another idea instead of per missile blown up would be similar to tag/narc, in that if you cover a friendly you get the bonus, maxing it out at 11.

#11 Gray 46rus

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts
  • LocationKUNPP, Russia

Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostFinsT, on 22 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Example. In a match, i never get any single missile fired at me. However, i stick close to my friends, some of whom have tons of missiles fired at them. My AMS shoots down aplenty, and SAVES a life of one of my friend for a while; that friend manages to kill 1 more enemy than he would otherwise be able to. Which gives HIM a kill. Which might give ME an assist, - if i damaged that particular enemy, - or might not - if i didn't. But in the same time, that additional kill most likely will give 1 more assist to a few other members of the team, - whomever were doing some damage to the enemy.
On other hand, you could screw off your AMS, save 1.5 tons and take more ammo or heatsinks to make more assists or even a kill. For that particular match, that would give you more significant benefit, because (as you said) none of missles fired at you.
But you didn't that, you benefited your team by your AMS, so you deserve a reward.

#12 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

This has been suggested before, and I don't think it has gotten much of a response (well, the AtD is up for questions, so it should be interesting there).

For a team game, AMS should reward the player that carries it. It's like the BAP/ECM tax, except it has ammo (which means its a risk to carry) and there's no guarantee that the enemy is carrying LRMs.. as SRMs/Streaks are the least affected by this.

Maybe it's just me, but I have had no use to carry AMS since Lurmaggeddon and when the LRMs dove like crazy when the LRM speed buff came around (which was a bug at the time).

If you're at least putting in the AMS, you're doing a service for you and your teammates.

I don't expect a major bonus for doing this. Even a small C-bill bonus is sufficient. It shouldn't really get you XP since the whole AMS system is automated though (technically better than Streaks).

#13 Oppresor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 997 posts
  • LocationPortsmouth, England

Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

Quote: "I think this is a great idea, my locust 3M (2 x AMS) kept an Atlas in the fight longer as I zipped back to him every time I saw incoming missiles targeted on him."

PocketAces, This is one of the best examples I have ever seen of team support; people knock the Locust, but you have found a really effective use for it. I would be honoured to go into battle along side you.

#14 FinsT

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 241 posts

Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:46 AM

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

FinsT, by your logic nothing should be rewarded other than kills and assists, as everything we do just boils down to us helping our team kill more things...

TAG/NARC reward? Why? By tagging and narcing we're helping our team get more kills and assists!
Savior kill reward? Why? It's already an assist!
Spotting reward? Why? ASSISTS!
Component destruction? ASSIST!

See?
...

Nope, you miss one thing: using TAG, NARC, killing an enemy, spotting an enemy, destroying enemy's component, - these all are _actions_ which (rewarded) player took. AMS, on the other hand, is automatic. You don't aim AMS, you don't press a button to make AMS to start shooting, you don't have to get within certain range for AMS to work (missiles come to you on their own). So you see, AMS is not an action; and since kills/assists are affected by the use of AMS _and_ it's not an action, - why reward it? And, about one of comments above saying that these 1.5 tons would be used for other equipment instead: yes, of course, can be. Then one would lose any chances to get additional kills/assists for oneself AND the team by using the AMS, - HOWEVER, one would GAIN additional chances to get kills/assists for oneself AND the team, ALSO! Is this so difficult to understand that with, say, 1-2 additional heatsinks instead of AMS, the pilot not only increases his own chances to kill/assist, - but also his teammates' chances to get kills/assists TOO? Because the faster the pilot kills, the more chances more teammates will survive and keep assisitng/killing for longer time. In _both_ cases (i mean the case pilot chose to have AMS - and the case pilot chose to have 1-2 extra heatsinks instead), - benefits are for both the pilot AND for the team.

// sarcasm on
Hey guys, i got an idea! Let's reward pilots for using heatsinks - they spend tonnage and slots in their mech for them, and the team certainly benefits from their higher sustained DPS - enemies get dropped faster, means the team is safer! So, how about a small XP and c-bills bonus for every second the pilot's mech is in a state of cooling down!

Hey guys, i got another idea! Let's reward pilots for taking damage to their armor! Because it certainly benefits the team that the pilot is surviving for a longer times - this allows other teammates not to get additional hits (because the pilot takes them!) - which means they can shoot the enemy longer and to be safer while doing it. So, how about a small XP and c-bills bonus for every point of armor burned on the pilot's mech!

Hey guys! What about speed! Using heavier than minimally possible engine - takes tonnage on the pilot's mech, and lets him go faster. Faster going means more recon possible, and better tactical possibilities for the whole team! So, how about a small XP and c-bills bonus for every second the pilot's mech is going 100% speed?

// sarcasm off

Sigh...

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

...
"A single AMS effect is quite minor" - So? Why is that a reason not to reward it? If anything that just means that 'Mechs with a single AMS won't get a big reward for using it. ...

In sciences (any technical sciences), there is a universally recognised concept of "negligible" (http://en.wikipedia....ible#In_physics). I was just referring to my opinion that AMS reward is something we definitely can live without, as you yourself confirm by this - quote - "... I would assume any AMS rewards given would be so small that this really wouldn't matter much". Thank you for confirming my opinion on this, by the way. :huh:

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

...
"A need to keep the system relatively simple" - Why do we "need" to keep it simple?

Oh, sure, i understand you want wide array of rewards, it's quite obvious. What i was referring to - is not your wish nor my desire, but objective need to keep user interfaces and data structures not being excessively complex. This is well known principle in gamedev, which we may like or hate personally, - which doesn't change it. Last paragraph on this page sums this principle pretty well: "Complexity control can best be summarized as "keep it simple, stupid".". Sidenote: i still wonder if "stupid" refers to the content which is to be kept simple, - or to the reader of the advice. Or may be both? =) :rolleyes:

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

...
Balancing c-bill & XP rewards isn't that hard ...

The line about balancing was not a separate reason; it's part of "need to keep things simple" one. It's just that forum decided to start new line exactly when i was using " - " as a part of syntax. You can easily verify this by copying my text into a text processor and removing some words in the line before the " - " in question...

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

...
Just because you don't see its value doesn't mean that others won't - which is why I want to see more diverse rewards ...

True. However, just because you see its value doesn't mean that others will. Which is why i am pointing out that i don't. I am one of "others" relatively to you. If i don't, then others might also not see its value. Which i thought might be interesting to you. Note, this one was NOT one of distinct separate reasons i presented in my 1st post of this topic - but it was only a mention of my personal opinion related to "need to keep things simple" reason; correspondedly, it was following "need to keep things simple" reason and was presented in the same paragraph.

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

...
Really, the only valid point you make, but I would assume any AMS rewards given would be so small that this really wouldn't matter much.

Really, all 4 of reasons mentioned in my 1st post in this potic, - are valid. If you think different, then, respectfully, i agree to remain in disagreement with you, on this particular matter.

Nothing else i can do for you here. Have fun, and thanks for discussion! ;)

Edited by FinsT, 25 October 2013 - 02:19 AM.


#15 Christof Romulus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 898 posts
  • LocationAS7-D(F), GRF-1N(P)

Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:27 PM

I also want a 1.5 ton bonus exp and money generator!

But I voted no, and here's why:

View PostDEMAX51, on 22 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

TAG/NARC reward? Why? By tagging and narcing we're helping our team get more kills and assists!
Savior kill reward? Why? It's already an assist!
Spotting reward? Why? ASSISTS!
Component destruction? ASSIST!

See?


Everything that generates a reward requires an action. Standing around and generating EXP and money is not an action.

To those who are going to counter "But I'm moving near my allies to save them." - So would you suggest an ECM exp bonus too? Let's say you generate exp based on the number of allies you're shrouding?

As I said, I understand where the OP is coming from, but it's an intangibility that shouldn't be rewarded based on its nebulosity. AMS being exp generators just isn't a good idea.

#16 Lord Perversor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 1,815 posts
  • LocationSomewhere in New Aragon

Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

I also want a 1.5 ton bonus exp and money generator!

But I voted no, and here's why:



Everything that generates a reward requires an action. Standing around and generating EXP and money is not an action.

To those who are going to counter "But I'm moving near my allies to save them." - So would you suggest an ECM exp bonus too? Let's say you generate exp based on the number of allies you're shrouding?

As I said, I understand where the OP is coming from, but it's an intangibility that shouldn't be rewarded based on its nebulosity. AMS being exp generators just isn't a good idea.


ok so put it right get 10 exp for each 100 ams bullet wasted = 100 exp per ton, it's a nefarious idea who will broke and unbalance the game because 100 exp is SERIOUS BUSINESS??

P.S: and i'm quite sure everyone will be giggling happily to get those 100 exp of missiles going to be wasted in the ground instead blocking real dmg missiles, or know that hey i got 1,5 tons of {Scrap} because this match my enemy carry 0 Lrm .

#17 Bhael Fire

    Banned - Cheating

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,002 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationThe Outback wastes of planet Outreach.

Posted 25 October 2013 - 10:06 PM

I agree with the OP.

I suggest that it be a c-bill bonus equal to the total amount of damage you shielded from a targeted friendly mech, multiplied by 50...kinda like the bonus from damage done to enemy mechs.

#18 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

To those who are going to counter "But I'm moving near my allies to save them." - So would you suggest an ECM exp bonus too? Let's say you generate exp based on the number of allies you're shrouding?


Actually, they are planning to add an ECM Counter bonus for those ECM users that actually use the Counter function that is rarely used by the pilots.

#19 Coralld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Caladbolg
  • Caladbolg
  • 3,952 posts
  • LocationSan Diego, CA

Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:29 AM

I agree with the OP. I can see the Atlas, Stalker, and Locust that mount dual AMS racking up some major points if this was put in.

#20 Christof Romulus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 898 posts
  • LocationAS7-D(F), GRF-1N(P)

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 25 October 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Actually, they are planning to add an ECM Counter bonus for those ECM users that actually use the Counter function that is rarely used by the pilots.

Well, that only goes to support my argument that you get rewards for performing an action - in this case you're jamming enemy ecm, not just having ECM on you.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users