55 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

or I Fought the Slot and the Slot Won

Hey, everyone. This question has been posited a lot as a patch bug, but it actually isn't patch-related. It's related to how weapons are placed in a 'mech in the game. I've seen a lot of threads complaining about this as relating to the new 'mechs from Phoenix Project individually, when actually it's a blanket issue affecting all 'mechs with multiple similar weapon hardpoints in the same location.

I'd really appreciate this getting pinned, as it affects a huge portion of the 'mech roster in the game and has caused no end of frustration for players trying to specify which launcher, laser, or cannon goes in which spot- particularly on 'mechs with missiles, where it can also affect how many tubes a missile rack is launching from.

The Perceived Issue:
So, I take my 'mech- I'll go with a Quickdraw, because it's familiar to me and demonstrates the problem particularly well, namely the QKD-4H.

The QKD-4H Quickdraw has two missile hardpoints in its left torso: a 10-hole slot inside the torso, and a 4-hole 'imaginary' rack under the arm that only appears if there's a second launcher in that side of the 'mech.

Now, when initially trying to set up this Quickdraw with an SRM-6 and an SRM-4 in that side torso, I carefully slot in the 6-rack first, generating a six-hole launcher in the internal location, and then place the 4-rack, creating a 4-tube launcher under the machine's left arm. I save my loadout. Everything copasetic, right?

Except that when I enter a match, I find the 4-tube launcher fires first, and the 6-tube launcher fires four missiles and then two, coming out of the underarm launcher!

Clearly, this is a new bug, I haven't had this issue with my other 'mechs! Right?

The Truth:

No, actually, it's not. This is something that's been ongoing for a long time in the game, and thus far hasn't been changed despite that most people are aware of it by now. While in some cases the source of the issue seems to be the 'mech, in others, it's the weapons themselves. This appears to default to any setting the individual 'mech has for the weapons in question first, then to any markers attached to the weapons.

It is possible that the weapon markers only apply when the weapons are similar (variously sized SRM racks, variously sized LRM racks, various kinds of AC/5, various forms of LL, various forms of ML, various forms of SL, various forms of PPC), but this has yet to be demonstrated in game.

What's Actually Happening:

Let's suppose I've just purchased a KTO-18 Kintaro (for the sake of argument). This 'mech comes with a number of missile racks installed in it by 'factory make'. Most relevantly, in the left arm we have an SRM-6 mounted over an LRM-5, in the twin missile hardpoints that are located here. Now, these racks are slotted specifically into their locations by the game, in such a way that they will never appear in the 'mech loadout as LRM-5/SRM-6, which would be the other order. As part of doing this, the game has designated the SRM-6 with a 'Hardpoint 1' marker, and the LRM-5 with a 'Hardpoint 2' marker. These markers are invisible- they can't be located by the player within the game, and at no point does any part of the game tell you about them.

Now, the KTO-18 is a five-missile-hardpoint Kintaro, which makes it super-useful for mounting Streak SRMs and taking out those pesky light 'Mechs. So I tear out all the missile racks and replace them with Streak SRM-2 racks. This means that in my 'spare weapons' inventory, I now have an SRM-6 with a 'Hardpoint 1' marker, and an LRM-5 with a 'Hardpoint 2' marker. These remain invisible distinctions, and the two missile racks retain their locations in your spare weapons inventory- the game actually tracks how recently an item went into your inventory, and you always place the most recently-acquired spare weapon first.

Immediately following this, I go to place launchers in a TDR-5S Thunderbolt. I want to use an SRM-6 and an LRM-15. Because of this, I want the LRM-15 to be in the over-shoulder position and the SRM-6 inside the torso of the 'mech- a higher launching point for LRMs means worrying less about obstacles cutting off your flight path.

If I place the SRM-6 from the Kintaro into the Thunderbolt alongside any LRM-15 that does not have a 'Hardpoint 1' marker, the SRM-6's 'Hardpoint 1' marker will hijack the order I stuck things into the 'mech, and as soon as I exit the loadout editor, the SRM-6 will move up into the over-the-shoulder barrel. This is not visible unless I exit and re-enter the 'Mechbay's loadout editor, or try to alter the Thunderbolt's paint scheme.

This has two detrimental effects: The LRMs are launching from the lower location, and they are also launching from a 10-tube spot, coming out as 10 missiles and then 5 missiles, instead of a spread of 15. This makes it harder to launch my LRMs over an obstacle, causes AMS shots to take down more of the missiles in flight, and means the launch takes longer, delaying the cooldown on my LRM-15 rack. Clearly, I Do Not Want.

Alternately, some 'mechs have inherent issues. As noted later in the thread, the Victor 9S mounts its missile racks in the left torso in alphabetical order regardless of anything else, which makes the issue potentially unfixable for that chassis. In that case, mounting, for instance, an SRM-6 followed by an LRM-5 followed by an LRM-15 shuffles so that the 15 is on top, the 5 is in the middle, and the 6 is on the bottom. How exactly the chassis-specific issue operates is uncertain.

The Solution for the Weapon Marker:

Well, unfortunately, there is no easy-simple solution here. When you have spare of a weapon in your Mechbay, you can't buy more of them- that only happens when you try to place a weapon you don't already have one of sitting around.

There is, however, an expensive solution: The Mechbay allows you to sell off weapons and equipment that aren't currently sitting in a 'Mech. You have to sell off the affected launcher, cannon, or energy weapon category one by one, until you've sold off the 'marked' weapon. It should sell before you run entirely out of that weapon if you have purchased a significant stockpile of weapons previously or stripped enough from 'mechs that don't have multiple of the same type of weapon hardpoint in a given location.

You can sell off your entire stock, which gets expensive, or you can do it the time-consuming way- slot weapons into your 'Mech, leave the Mechbay, then return to the Mechbay and open your machine's loadout again. Check the model of the 'Mech to see where the tubes or weapons have wound up. If the locations are out of order, remove the affected weapons, sell off one (one of each kind if you don't know which weapon is the 'marked' weapon) and then slot in a new set of weapons. Leave the Mechbay, return, inspect your 'Mech, and repeat until the darn things are staying where you put them.

If you can't figure out whether the issue is the weapon or the chassis, you can try mounting all your weapons of a given type in other chassis and then purchasing a new one to put into the 'mech that you are having the issue with. If the issue repeats, you're looking at a Chassis Organizer and not a Weapon Marker.

The Solution for the Chassis Organizer:

Sadly, thus far, there appears to be none.


Thanks for reading. Please stay aware of what's going on in your game, Mechwarriors! Things can only get better if we can actually identify the source of our woes and bring it to light.

-Quickdraw Crobat, A.K.A. Elli Gujar

Edited by Elli Gujar, 11 November 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[XphR]

Unfortunately when this was brought to light they shrugged and said they had no intention of players being able to select specific weapons for specific hard points within a location. Even as a handful of cosmetic problems it should be fixed, add in the real in battle effect of 'lumpy builds' and you figure they would cave and fix what should have been a non issue in the first place. It could be as complex as a one for one control of placement or as simple as first on first in.

Am I surprised they went with Ghost Hardpoints? Not anymore.. You can never get your hay cart in order greedily eying everyones precious fodder, fork and sickle in hand.

Edited by XphR, 10 November 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Interesting, but I have to point out a couple of things:

First, knowing how it came about doesn't make the functionality any less a bug.

Second, my Battlemaster 1G was still exhibiting the same bug with its energy weapons, loading in ERPPCs (which are not in the stock torsos and thus should not be flagged) into the first (and lower) slot instead of the higher torso location. This is important for hill sniping, and a major bug in the 'mech's functionality. Basically, it means that I have to fire my PPCs from collarbone level, instead of over my head. Now, I used your workaround, and it seems to be working - I reloaded the game client and went to the Testing grounds, and it's still in the right position. I'll have to check it in live games when I have more time.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

No, it doesn't mean it's not a bug.

But it -does- mean it's not a bug -from this patch-.

From my understanding, the patch subforum is for 'You patched the game and now X isn't working right anymore' and 'You added Y to the game and it isn't working right' above all else. It keeps popping up there in the format of (new 'Mech) is doing this crazy hardpoint thing, there must be a bug with (new 'Mech), which isn't accurate.



Also: It is 'First On, First In', for every weapon that didn't come preinstalled on a 'Mech. So I don't understand why this hasn't been changed.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 10 November 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Are you sure this is from the 'weapon remembering it was in hardpoint 1'?

I'd love to see some screenshots of your solution in action, and in-game as well not just in the mechlab. does buying a NEW launcher work everytime or is it less consistent? Which mechs have you verified this on? Which have you been unable to check this on?

It's an interestring theory but I'd love to see somes screenshots to illustrate your findings, and then I may spend a few C-bills of my own to independantly check your method.

[Koniving]

Actually, I've got something a wee bit more accurate for you. There's a bit of "preference" for spots, true, but I do not believe the game associates specific points with specific weapons stuffed in your inventory.

For the Stalker 5M, the "largest" launcher thrown in favors the NARC launcher slot (defaults is 2 slot SRM 6 and 3 slot NARC launcher). Same is true for the Trebuchet with the NARC launcher. (Edit: Treb doesn't share its narc.)

The Highlander favors SRMs (or at least did it's been ages) in the larger chest launcher by choice with regards to the artwork. This is much to our disgust (as since the size of the tubes are related to the texture being stretched for the pod).

With those exceptions, most mechs sort by location and alphabetical order. Example: L comes before SRM. Streak comes after SRM. NARC comes before SRM but after LRM.

Other notes: AC/2 and AC/5 seem to get confused and flipped a lot. MG can go anywhere, though it's often moved for AC/5s and up. UAC/5, AC/10, LB-10, Gauss, and AC/20 get a "Space" preference to the first hardpoint slot. Though with the Shadowhawk this 'space' preference is broken, allowing the UAC/5 to mount in the third slot. Fun fact: UAC/5 in the third slot of the shadow-hawk looks like and animates like an AC/5.

Edited by Koniving, 10 November 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Modo44]

I got my Orion K to keep its PPCs inside the arms using the following procedure (found on reddit; following the advice of Arcturious). Maybe it works on others, too:

• Strip the mech all the way (no need to sell).
  
• Save the mech.
  
• Add everything but the engine to achieve the layout you want.
  
• Save the mech.
  
• Add the engine with internal heatsinks.
  
• Save again.

[Koniving]

Modo44, on 10 November 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I got my Orion K to keep its PPCs inside the arms using the following procedure (found on reddit; following the advice of Arcturious). Maybe it works on others, too:

I'll try this on the Orion to see if it's really true in match (100 FOV, I can see my Raven's arms. So I can see most arms.) I did just try it on the Highlander and what I wound up with was a glitch: I now have a single tube launcher for my SRM-6 in match but it's fine in the mechlab with 6 tubes.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

This is very interesting.

I've solved this issue in several 'mechs through the method I describe and apparently working as I described (and as it was initially explained to me by another player) with my Quickdraws, Cataphract 4X, Highlanders, Blackjacks, Hunchbacks, and Centurions (with Missiles and lasers both in the QKD, HGN, and HBK frames, ballistics in the CTF, and with lasers in the CN9 and BJ frames). In each case, it was a persistent shuffle, usually (but not always) within a single class of weapon. (SRMs in the QKD and HGN frames especially)

I have no videos and cannot post videos of this occurring because I cannot afford to be buying extra 'mechs just to test this out and have already 'fixed' it when loading out the 'mechs I currently own.

Either way, though (although I'm kind of unhappy at the thought I wasted much of my time on the first post if it's not working how it has so far seemed to work), new players should really have an easy way to become aware of this issue, as it's clearly not something restricted to one or another chassis or to one or another weapon type, but in fact affects all (or nearly all) weapons and/or chassis with multiple similar hardpoints in the same location.

Currently, there is nothing anywhere pointing this issue out, and so there have been repeated threads in the patch issue forums started as though the issue were limited to an individual variant of an individual chassis.

Also, if my experience/perception to date is wrong, I'd really like to see some evidence myself- not that I'm saying you're wrong (because I doubt that you are either lying or completely misunderstanding what's happening if you've munged about with it enough to fix it, although I doubt I'm completely misunderstanding either), but rather because I would like to get a better grip on what's going on if my current thoughts on the matter aren't accurate.

[Void Angel]

Except that this issue still occurs with weapons which are not stock on the 1G: the ERPPC. So it can't be just that, unless it was the medium lasers that were screwing things up. Your workaround seemed to, er, work - I'm about to go test it with a real match.

Well, it works in live games, too. A guildmate of mine suggested that you could also solve the issue if you swapped weapons into another chassis, if that's feasible. So for example I could have simply swapped my two ERPPCs into another chassis, then bought new ones. This won't fix the possibility of the issue recurring, but it does allow you to avoid selling things off.

[Atlai]

Thanks for explaining this! i noticed a while ago this was happening but didnt really understand.

Modo44, on 10 November 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I got my Orion K to keep its PPCs inside the arms using the following procedure (found on reddit; following the advice of Arcturious). Maybe it works on others, too:

• Strip the mech all the way (no need to sell).
  
• Save the mech.
  
• Add everything but the engine to achieve the layout you want.
  
• Save the mech.
  
• Add the engine with internal heatsinks.
  
• Save again.

This was actually the mech i noticed it in, for the same reason no less.
Ill try that fix because i really didint like the ppcs on the outside of the arms.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Void Angel, on 10 November 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Except that this issue still occurs with weapons which are not stock on the 1G: the ERPPC. So it can't be just that, unless it was the medium lasers that were screwing things up. Your workaround seemed to, er, work - I'm about to go test it with a real match.

You've misunderstood what I said here, Void.

As described, it doesn't matter if the weapons were stock on the mech you're putting them on, only if they came off of some 'mech somewhere with multiple similar hardpoints in the same location.

My understanding of the issue is and has always been that it's attached to the weapon, and doesn't care about what 'mech the weapon is in. Its source appears to be the weapon having originally come from a 'mech with multiple valid hardpoints in that location, and then being mounted in any 'mech with multiple hardpoints it could stop in, when there are other weapons in the same location that could also fit those hardpoints.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 10 November 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Void Angel]

No 'mech I own has ERPPCs as a stock loadout.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

That's very noteworthy! I don't tend to use ERPPC's often myself, and haven't had that many 'mechs with multiple energy slots in one location where I was trying to mount a variety of energy weapons there.

Do you think it's possible some weapons could come 'marked' or be 'marked' by something else too? Given that you resolved the issue with your BLR via the method I described it seems likely the issue was somehow attached to the weapons and not the chassis.

[Bagheera]

The VTR-9S (6 tubes, 4 tubes, 2 tubes) will mount missile racks (in this case SRMS) in the order that I place them there, filling the visible 6 tube launcher first, then the 4, then the 2.

Trust me, I experimented with this extensively on that mech. My current iteration is actually A-SRM6/4/2 so that I get all my missiles at once. Interesting results - not necessarily categorically better than running triple srm-6, but I don't waste (arguably with hit detection srms are a little bit of a waste by default) as many missiles with the 6/4/2 combo.

Basically the behavior is inconsistent. Some mechs are wacky, like the Stalker example and others posted, others like Victor work in a fashion that one would expect and makes sense.

Edited by Bagheera, 11 November 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Bagheera, on 11 November 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The VTR-9S (6 tubes, 4 tubes, 2 tubes) will mount missile racks (in this case SRMS) in the order that I place them there, filling the visible 6 tube launcher first, then the 4, then the 2.

Trust me, I experimented with this extensively on that mech. My current iteration is actually A-SRM6/4/2 so that I get all my missiles at once. Interesting results - not necessarily categorically better than running triple srm-6, but I don't waste (arguably with hit detection srms are a little bit of a waste by default) as many missiles with the 6/4/2 combo.

Basically the behavior is inconsistent. Some mechs are wacky, like the Stalker example and others posted, others like Victor work in a fashion that one would expect and makes sense.

Interesting to note, but what I've experienced would indicate that this just means you haven't tried to load any 'marked' launchers in there. Have you tried removing the launchers, purchasing a 'mech with similar launchers in pre-organized positions that are different, removing the launchers from that new 'mech, and then slotting them into the Victor in the preferred order? It's expensive, but would serve as verification one way or the other.

If not, no big, just time for some more mental notes that there's something else to check out that may provide evidence one way or the other.

[Koniving]

Bagheera, on 11 November 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The VTR-9S (6 tubes, 4 tubes, 2 tubes) will mount missile racks (in this case SRMS) in the order that I place them there, filling the visible 6 tube launcher first, then the 4, then the 2.

Trust me, I experimented with this extensively on that mech. My current iteration is actually A-SRM6/4/2 so that I get all my missiles at once. Interesting results - not necessarily categorically better than running triple srm-6, but I don't waste (arguably with hit detection srms are a little bit of a waste by default) as many missiles with the 6/4/2 combo.

Basically the behavior is inconsistent. Some mechs are wacky, like the Stalker example and others posted, others like Victor work in a fashion that one would expect and makes sense.

Try this to derail the original poster's theory. Take that SRM 6, leave it in the Victor. Swap the SRM-4 with an LRM-5. Swap the SRM-2 with an LRM-15.

To be absolutely certain, sell all LRM-5s and 15s or mount them all on other mechs before doing this so you have brand new ones. Keep your precious "first hardpoint marked" SRM-6.

Notice for LRM 15 you fire 10, then 5.
LRM-5 you fire 5.
For SRM-6 you fire 2, 2, 2.

Alphabetical order with a preference for the largest launcher being in the first slot. LRM-20 will trump LRM-15 due to slots. LRM-10 will trump LRM-5 and SRM-6 due to alphabetical order. SRM-6 will trump LRM-5 for first due to slots, but recede to LRM-5 after the priority first slot. SRM-4 and 2 recede to SRM-6 due to slots, and to LRM-5 due to alphabetical order.

Streaks recede to all SRMs, taking the lowest hardpoint.

Myself with 100% new weapons (I have 78 mechs it's easy to get rid of the weapons) except for an SRM-6 that came from brand new Victor as its only weapon. The SRM-6 got loaded first. The LRM-5 second. The LRM-15 last. The weapon visual representation rearranged as I put them on. I went into a testing grounds. I got the results I posted.

Selling all of said weapons, saving, closing the game, deleting the user cache, going back into the game, buying an SRM-6, LRM-15, and LRM-5 in that order, saving after each individual weapon, I got this.

First save: 6 holes. Second save, original slot 10 holes, second slot 6 holes. Third save, original slot 10 holes, second slot 5 holes, third slot 2 holes (and SRM-6 fires from it).

Edited by Koniving, 11 November 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Well!

This just gets weirder and weirder.

Amending my original post, then.

By my best estimation, given the way this has operated (where in all the cases I was aware of before this thread the issue was solved via the method I originally described, which should only work if the source of the problem is the weapon and not the chassis) there are potentially at least two sources of the issue thus far!

Some degree of PGI attention is probably warranted at this point, as this is clearly something that does affect quality-of-play and can grow drastically as more chassis and weapons are added to the game.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 11 November 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[DerelictTomcat]

XphR, on 10 November 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Unfortunately when this was brought to light they shrugged and said they had no intention of players being able to select specific weapons for specific hard points within a location.

Then they need to make each weapon control fire rate and not the TT rules or some cosmetic item. A LRM 20 should fire 20 shots at once. Simple no?

[Geek Verve]

I've also run into this issue but never really dug too deeply into figuring it out. This is all very interesting info. I wonder if part of the issue is simply the fact that certain weapons are prioritized for certain hard points by chassis simply due to the graphics assets and the way they incorporate different weapons into the visual model. That might explain the inconsistencies in the way it works.