121 replies to this topic

[JadeTimberwolf]

VinJade, on 19 January 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

isn't there a T-Bolt that allows a player to use three PPCs and can fire them all with very little to worry about?
though I don't like ghost heat as I use to pilot a commando and it heated up quickly if not careful and a standard 2D is one of the coolest running mechs out there.

only mech I never seen over heat is the LCT-1V(Which would be strange if it did build up heat quickly).

To my understanding that is the 9S and unless they changed it has a 50% heat quirk for ERPPC

[DaynarFaol]

My issue with Ghost Heat is that it is that is effectively nerfs rate of fire.

Mechs have twice the armor of TT and even more on the legs. Weapons DPS is inaccurate since it appears to be calculated without regard to Ghost Heat. Which cuts your rate of fire down by about 25%, rough guess at an ave.

When every mech is double armored and DPS is dropped due to a Ghost Heat mechanic that is poorly worked out. Which it is. I should not see a 17% heat spike with a 1.25 effecncy for firing 3 medium lasers together on an arctic map.

So on a cold map with a standing still heat of 3% and I fire 3 standard mediums with a heat gen of 4 that should be a 12% increase to 15%. I Usually see it in the 20% or better range.

And don't get me started on the "double" heat sinks.

In CW with the fact that all mechs have double armor it takes twice the damage to take a target out. The heat scaling is one reason the Zerg Rush works. If the mechs rate of fire was closer to "book" value then it would make the Zerg Rush less effective.

The PPC T-Bolt proves this with the quirks it was given. It is one reason it is such a strong Meta at the moment. It's heat scaling is closer to "book/stock" then most other mechs in the game.

If you want to keep Ghost Heat then drop the armor or something. A low rate of fire is one of the core reasons the Zerg works so well. If everyone has to stop firing after only a few shots then the lights which are has heavily armored at TT mediums with the upped gun internals means that they can take a lot of hits.

Yes a good Alpha strike will kill one, but when they wolfpack it takes a lot of fire to stop them. Make it so the rate of fire is accurate and that sort of tactic will slowly stop.

That is ultimately my view.

MWO gave superiority to armor over the gun then made the gun have a very low rate of fire.

[Tim East]

Daynar, on 22 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

My issue with Ghost Heat is that it is that is effectively nerfs rate of fire.

Mechs have twice the armor of TT and even more on the legs. Weapons DPS is inaccurate since it appears to be calculated without regard to Ghost Heat. Which cuts your rate of fire down by about 25%, rough guess at an ave.

When every mech is double armored and DPS is dropped due to a Ghost Heat mechanic that is poorly worked out. Which it is. I should not see a 17% heat spike with a 1.25 effecncy for firing 3 medium lasers together on an arctic map.

So on a cold map with a standing still heat of 3% and I fire 3 standard mediums with a heat gen of 4 that should be a 12% increase to 15%. I Usually see it in the 20% or better range.

And don't get me started on the "double" heat sinks.

In CW with the fact that all mechs have double armor it takes twice the damage to take a target out. The heat scaling is one reason the Zerg Rush works. If the mechs rate of fire was closer to "book" value then it would make the Zerg Rush less effective.

The PPC T-Bolt proves this with the quirks it was given. It is one reason it is such a strong Meta at the moment. It's heat scaling is closer to "book/stock" then most other mechs in the game.

If you want to keep Ghost Heat then drop the armor or something. A low rate of fire is one of the core reasons the Zerg works so well. If everyone has to stop firing after only a few shots then the lights which are has heavily armored at TT mediums with the upped gun internals means that they can take a lot of hits.

Yes a good Alpha strike will kill one, but when they wolfpack it takes a lot of fire to stop them. Make it so the rate of fire is accurate and that sort of tactic will slowly stop.

That is ultimately my view.

MWO gave superiority to armor over the gun then made the gun have a very low rate of fire.

Actually, that's backwards. TT turns were supposedly 10 seconds, and TTK is far shorter than that now due to the fast recycle rates on weapons. You can get effectively 25 damage every 10 seconds with IS PPCs now instead of 10 damage every ten seconds. Even with doubled armor, that's an increase of 25% in relative damage over time. Additionally, by removing the heat cap of 30 that existed in TT, you are permitted to fire far more weapons simultaneously before overheating, and you don't take any penalties for doing so until your heat exceeds your maximum threshold.

Furthermore, in TT your 3 medium lasers would increase your heat level by 12/30, or 40% when fired. On the other hand, a minimum of 10 of that heat would be dissipated over the course of 10 seconds, assuming that you had the bare minimum number of heatsinks installed.

Ghost heat is definitely not a great solution to balance the game, but if you're going to use TT values in your argument it might pay to know what they are and how they work.

I personally think it would be interesting to see them implement the heat cap of 30 and change heatsinks to .1 heat dissipation per second per heatsink value and removing ghost heat. Or perhaps .2 since they doubled armor and more than doubled refire rate. That would fix pretty much every alpha-heavy build to have to chain their weapons except for gauss, which has already been limited to 2 at a time. Just a thought.

[Cyberiad]

I'd like if they had 30 heat limit for all mechs, removed ghost heat, increased heat dissipation of double heat sinks to 2x single heat sink dissipation and reduce armor to MW3 armor values. Mechs would die fast but the game would still be fun if they introduced objective based game modes like capture the flag with infinite respawns and drop-in matches (matches where you can drop into at any time and leave at any time as well as switch between any of your mechs between spawns).

[Ialdabaoth]

Eh, really they just need to implement actual sliding-scale heat penalties. Speed, acceleration and arm/torso twist reduction that starts at 50% heat and increases linearly to a 50% reduction at 90% heat + an ECM-like effect at 80% heat should do nicely.

(Also, 'override' should be more dangerous when you're carrying ammunition)

Edited by Ialdabaoth, 06 April 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[MechWarrior319348]

Proper balance my friends, proper balance. Not too much, not too little, if everyone is unhappy then the job is done

[Surn]

DavidHurricane, on 26 November 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Hang on tight, I am going to explain the nature of heat in a paragraph.

So according to the laws of thermodynamics (how heat behaves) heat goes to cold. It also describes hat as an accumulative effect. So if I fire something with 10 heat, then I get 10 heat and my 2 heat sinks kick in. But if I fire something with 10 heat and 10 heat at once, my only 2 heat sinks have to work together to kick in, lowering the initial rate of cooling efficiency and thus giving me more overall heat, because heating is accumulative and cooling is not.

Bad your wording is.

Say, you do...

Having 10 heat... if add you do, 10 additional heat with only 2 heatsinks; 20 the total heat is with cooling constant at 2 remaining.

Explain better, Yoda does.

Edited by MechregSurn, 29 April 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[990Dreams]

MechregSurn, on 29 April 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Bad your wording is.

Say, you do...

Having 10 heat... if add you do, 10 additional heat with only 2 heatsinks; 20 the total heat is with cooling constant at 2 remaining.

Explain better, Yoda does.

Treating heat as a linear effect and over a period of time. If you add c temp. to t total temp. over a time period of zero seconds (i.e two separate entities produce an instantaneous heat event at the same time) then the total heat with be greater than if you fired one at a time or just one, because the default cooling systems will be given more load than they can take, which means that some additional heat that is normally cooled is flooded back into the system.

Yoda apparently hasn't made it beyond linear thinking yet. Also, I have no reason to dumb down dry terminology. If you don't understand it, then that is your problem if you want to debate me. Not mine.

[Surn]

Serious are you?:

DavidHurricane, on 29 April 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

Treating heat as a linear effect and over a period of time. If you add c temp. to t total temp. over a time period of zero seconds (i.e two separate entities produce an instantaneous heat event at the same time) then the total heat with be greater than if you fired one at a time or just one, because the default cooling systems will be given more load than they can take, which means that some additional heat that is normally cooled is flooded back into the system.

Yoda apparently hasn't made it beyond linear thinking yet. Also, I have no reason to dumb down dry terminology. If you don't understand it, then that is your problem if you want to debate me. Not mine.

Stating the obvious you are.

t+c >= c

Edited by MechregSurn, 01 May 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Nightshade24]

15 er ppc direstars, instead of 1 alpha killing 4 mechs before dying you want them to kill 12+ people before dying? suit yourself...

I say do not remove it, just improve the heatscale and slowly lower / remove the ghost heat.

Keep in mind, ghost heat is more player friendly then the other options

[990Dreams]

MechregSurn, on 01 May 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

Serious are you?:
Stating the obvious you are.
t+c >= c

Exactly. Which is why when you fire two weapons that instantly produce heat, and you don't have the correct HS compensation, their total heat produced will be larger than 2x the heat of a single weapon, due to inefficiencies in the cooling system.

[Serpentbane]

Assaults should be mean as hell.
This is from the King Crab description on Sarna.
"Its primary weapons, super-heavy autocannons mounted in its arms, can strip the armor off of any 'Mech in a few bursts." "The only reliable way to destroy a is with overwhelming numbers of heavy and assault 'Mechs, and casualties will be suffered in the attempt."

The problem with MWO is the small arena maps, lack of mech roles, dumbed down electroninc warfare option, and close to null real teamplay, tactics and strategy. A 20 sec flank does not count.

Larger maps, more time to manouver, use of real spotters and electronics, and the Assaults would be something to hunt and track, but not walk in front of. Although powerfull, they are slow, and would halt the rest of the teams ability to manouver. So, how to use each weight class would hev to be considdered trough the match.[/color]

Edited by Serpentbane, 01 May 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[Sh4nk0h0l1c]

Nope, no way!

TTK needs to be increased and removing ghosteat would further decrease it...

We dont need more frontloadedpinpointalphastrikedamage!!!

[Spleenslitta]

If something replaces Ghost Heat i'd be okay with it.
For example mechs becoming sluggish and slow with danger of ammo explosions at high heat levels just like in the TT.
If convergence was removed that would help in stopping boating too.

[Astarot]

Quote

My issue with Ghost Heat is that it is that is effectively nerfs rate of fire.

Mechs have twice the armor of TT and even more on the legs. Weapons DPS is inaccurate since it appears to be calculated without regard to Ghost Heat. Which cuts your rate of fire down by about 25%, rough guess at an ave.

When every mech is double armored and DPS is dropped due to a Ghost Heat mechanic that is poorly worked out. Which it is. I should not see a 17% heat spike with a 1.25 effecncy for firing 3 medium lasers together on an arctic map.

So on a cold map with a standing still heat of 3% and I fire 3 standard mediums with a heat gen of 4 that should be a 12% increase to 15%. I Usually see it in the 20% or better range.

And don't get me started on the "double" heat sinks.

In CW with the fact that all mechs have double armor it takes twice the damage to take a target out. The heat scaling is one reason the Zerg Rush works. If the mechs rate of fire was closer to "book" value then it would make the Zerg Rush less effective.

The PPC T-Bolt proves this with the quirks it was given. It is one reason it is such a strong Meta at the moment. It's heat scaling is closer to "book/stock" then most other mechs in the game.

If you want to keep Ghost Heat then drop the armor or something. A low rate of fire is one of the core reasons the Zerg works so well. If everyone has to stop firing after only a few shots then the lights which are has heavily armored at TT mediums with the upped gun internals means that they can take a lot of hits.

Yes a good Alpha strike will kill one, but when they wolfpack it takes a lot of fire to stop them. Make it so the rate of fire is accurate and that sort of tactic will slowly stop.

That is ultimately my view.

MWO gave superiority to armor over the gun then made the gun have a very low rate of fire.

Pretty sure that Ghost heat was added due to the fact that heat in the game follows a linear 0% good 100% you shutdown 102% you explode.

In TT, you generated points of heat based on everything, this includes walking, running, jumping, shooting weapons, you generate heat for attempting to stand back up if you do something dumb and fall over, and you generate EVEN MORE HEAT when you take engine damage, (Jumping generates a minimal of 3 heat then +1 heat per hex after three hexes), you take a movement debuff at 16%, 33%, 50% , 66% and 83% heat in TT, that one less MP(Movement point) per level of heat, so at 83% or greater, a battlemech should have a -5 MP, and for most of the heavy and for just about all the assaults that means you would be often be moving at LIMPING SPEEDS, Oh lets not forget the penalty to the "to-hit" modifier, in the TT game you loose acc. point at 46%, 60%, 73%, 86% and 100%, so at 86% you lose 4 points, and if by some chance you manage to over-ride at 100% heat, take a 5 point penalty, that means if you and your enemy are standing still, at medium range you have to roll a 10 or greater to actually hit them, and then at LONG range, well at LONG range, you have to roll a 12 to make the hit, which is like a critical success.....

What I'm basically saying, is don't cherry pick the TT rules unless you want people like me to come by and shut you down based on principle alone.

[Random Carnage]

oldradagast, on 24 November 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Getting rid of ghost heat would allow energy builds to once again be viable.

Um...what? Since when are energy builds not viable?

[Wing 0]

Armored Yokai, on 23 November 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Its best that Ghost heat gets removed
Now that the lrms are buffed its best if ghost heat is removed to help combat it

LOL. No.

[adamts01]

Armored Yokai, on 23 November 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Its best that Ghost heat gets removed
Now that the lrms are buffed its best if ghost heat is removed to help combat it

You seriously think LRMs are better than lasers?

[Generic Internetter]

I'd only agree to the removal of ghost heat if they upped the heat on ALL WEAPONS to compensate.

[no one]

^ ^ ^ or say, reduced the heat cap?

That's the hilarious thing about ghost heat. It is a completely, wholly redundant system. There is already a mechanic perfectly suited to limiting alpha strikes. The only problem with it is that they gave us too much of it and mad heat deliver of all weapons instant, or nearly so.

See, the heat buffer as it exists in Mechwarrior games is an abstraction. It exists ONLY to handle the concept of instant heat generation.

(the following cropped from a similar post because lazy)

Remember, in the tabletop there was no heat buffer. None. You had a 30 point overheat scale that you could run into, but heat was generated and dealt with in the same 10 second turn. You wouldn't ever build up heat on a heat neutral 'Mech. The real time equivalent would be firing a PPC in a real time game, and having your 'Mech slowly absorb the heat at a rate of 1 heat per second over 10 seconds. So if you had 10 DHS you'd go from -2 h/s to -1 h/s and there would be no actual overheat.

If the game took this into account you could limit alpha-striking by constricting the heat buffer and changing how much of a weapon's heat is front-loaded when a weapons fires and how much is applied over the weapon's reload/recharge cycle.

Arbitrarily, say you start with a heat buffer of 10 for the 10 built in heat-sinks. Maybe add a little buffer for additional heatsinks. 0.3 buffer per or whatever. Say you just have the 10 built ins. You want to limit people to 2 PPCs alphas? make PPCs front-load 5 heat and generate 1 heat/s for a 5 second recycle. Small lasers generate 2 heat front loaded? You can fire 5.

The numbers aren't important. The point is make the heat buffer your alpha-limiting 'Mechanic in place of ghost heat, and raise the dissipation levels such that heat neutral canon builds are heat neutral on the '5 second turn' cycle MWO weapons operate in.

Then add heat-sink efficiency reductions as a penalty for running hot. Eg have coolant that that can be replenished slowly but burns off faster the hotter you run, or simply make running into overheat slow your heat dissipation rate more and more. Essentially - Make alpha striking cost something. Make it so you can put out more raw damage if you stagger your shots.

Edited by no one, 22 January 2016 - 11:50 PM.