121 replies to this topic

[Naduk]

6xPPC stalker = ghost heat stays

imagine what a boars head could do with out Ghost heat, 6xPPC stalker would look like a kitten

now that you are warned in game when ghost heat will affect you there is nothing wrong with the system

[Osric Lancaster]

Naduk, on 02 May 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

6xPPC stalker = ghost heat stays

imagine what a boars head could do with out Ghost heat, 6xPPC stalker would look like a kitten

now that you are warned in game when ghost heat will affect you there is nothing wrong with the system

Why do people even still use this argument? It's like arguing that drinking your own pee is better than drinking sewer water in New York. It may be true, but it in no way means that you should pick one of those options.

Remove ghost heat, increase dissipation, decrease heat capacity, put in movement penalties and the like at greater levels of heat dissipation. It's been suggested by dozens of different people with vary degrees of description and never have I seen anyone present a convincing argument as to why that would be a worse system than ghost heat.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 03 May 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[Naduk]

if we had no ghost heat and you lowered the heat cap and increase dissipation
all you would do is drive the game towards high alpha builds even more

the problem with out ghost heat is you can fire 6 ppc's and be alive afterwards
you may shut down but you only need to wait a bit before you can fire again
only now you can do it even faster than before when boating was a serious plague
and what does it matter if your shut down when your target is toast

for the reductions your talking about to have any meaningful effect you would need to set the heat cap so low that anything more than 2x ppc would be a shut down (with engine damage) and 3x ppc would be instant death

thats awesome i here you say, it even fits the lore, lets do it
however this causes more problems than it solves
most mechs (stock or otherwise) become useless, as everything needs to be used on chain fire
stock mechs that are designed as boats are punished extra hard now (awesome, laser hunchback,catapult)
certain weapons will become unusable (like LRM20) as their heat/tonnage/ammo ratios will be to high to justify having it
as you will never be able to fire more than half a ton of ammo before the enemy is in your face killing you with medium pulse lasers
flamers become even more hopeless as the heat sinks cool more than you can cook

any build you have ever created is now trash and only designs that deliver primarily via chain fire will be of any effect
any mech with less than 4 slots of a given weapon type will be thrown to the trash
more than 4 will likely be considered wasted space

a ppc is 10heat, a medlas is 4 heat, 2xmed las = 1xppc, a system balance target at 2xppc will mean only 4 or 5 medium lasers can be fired before a redline or shut down occurs

then the clans rock up with mechs that can fire 4xERppc and not overheat
while they pin you down and whisper "you will not enjoy this" into your ear as you wish your hardest for ghost heat to return

[Omi_]

Ghost heat NEEDS visual or auditory feedback.

[Vanguard319]

between the ghost heat and dhs = 1.4 the only way you can fire two large lasers or two PPCs without overheating on the first shot is if you aren't using ER versions, which already generate additional heat to begin with. Seems kind of pointless to be penalized even further for using weapons that already had a heat penalty to begin with, The system could use some serious improvement.

[Loganauer]

Copy pasta I made in another ghost heat thread.

How to solve the problem with High Alpha Builds without ghost heat!

Step 1

Nerf recycle times of PPC, Gauss Rifle, Large Lasers and LRMs!

Step 2

Implement Cone of Fire spread to eliminate Pinpoint damage that can be improved by modules, quirks, skill tree, and/or brought back entirely by targeting computers

Step 3

Implement heat penalties, reduce heat threshold, increase dissipation

These all follow tabletop rules unlike ghost heat, and they all follow the laws of physics unlike ghost heat, and the community would be a lot more receptive to these ideas unlike ghost heat! HURRAY!

These solutions are also lumped together to remove gauss rifle charge, bring back the PPC speeds, and undo the CERLL nerf.

Edited by Loganauer, 22 August 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[That Dawg]

196 noobs voted

[Nightmare1]

Ghost Heat should never have been implemented. It really messes with everything and wrecks the Lights and Mediums in the game. I have an HBK with triple MLs, an AC/20, and twin MGs with lots of double heat sinks. The thing overheats because of the stupid Ghost Heat modifiers despite the fact that it should be, canonically, a relatively cool running Mech. It's enough that the HBK is already at a disadvantage against other, more competitive chasses - it doesn't need Ghost Heat to mess with it too! That goes for all the other chasses too. If Ghost Heat is removed, then each Mech will truly have an even playing field. Mechs confined to certain load-outs, like energy boating HBK-4Ps, QKDs, Awesomes, etc., won't be unduly punished and may actually become more useful. On top of that, ACs have always been cool-running weapons systems. Adding Ghost Heat to them defeats the purpose of equipping some of the lighter, less useful ACs. For example, I run triple AC/2s on my BLR-1D with a bunch of double heat sinks. The Ghost Heat modifier is so severe that the heat will spike quickly when firing them grouped. Chain firing them allows the heat to dissipate slowly, but that defeats the purpose of running three of them. Already a non-competitive chassis, the BLR-1D is punished for no reason. The recent ballistic nerfs have reduced to AC/2s to useless rubbish and I am now forced to reevaluate what was once a fun, if non-competitive, build. Add to that the fact that a lot of competitive pilots run macros to get around the Ghost Heat issues, and you suddenly have a mechanic that punishes leisure gamers such as myself, while failing miserably to apply the same penalty to the hardcore players. It's time to make this game more fun and less taxing for its constituency.

[Tim East]

I don't think that build is subject to ghost heat? You only have 3MLs and an AC20? Ghost heat only applies penalties to stacks of the same, or in some cases, similar weapons.

[Draconeran]

My favorite build suffers due to the games poor balance of the heat scale. I run a Battlemaster with 2 ERLL and 2 LL. I carry 20
DHS. I should be able to fire all my weapons without over heating. Between ghost heat and slow heat dissipation I have to fire a pair at a time and only risk the extra heat for a killing blow. I should be able to fire all my weapons all the time.

I wish we had a heat scale that showed our max heat dissipation and had an over heat scale which caused effect like flickering HUD to mimic the negative to fire from TT and get a reduction in speed to include twist and turn speeds with a warning about engine performance. They could also add the random chance for shut down and ammo explosions. I would just start the percentage low and slowly increase it over time the longer you stay at that threshold and the most you go above that threshold.

I believe that staying as true as you can to the feel or TT is important. I do understand that not all thing translate from TT to live play but the basic heat scale does. I give MW4:mercs as my example. They didn't have ghost heat to my knowledge.

[Dreadp1r4te]

Here's the ultimate clincher: if PGI is so worried about boating, why are they introducing quirks that encourage exactly that?

Ghost heat could be mitigated if they gave us true 2.0 DHS.

Or changed up how heatsinks function: DHS gives .2 cooling, .5 capacity. SHS gives .1 cooling, .1 capacity. Or something to that effect.

Edited by Dreadp1r4te, 01 December 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Tim East, on 27 August 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

I don't think that build is subject to ghost heat? You only have 3MLs and an AC20? Ghost heat only applies penalties to stacks of the same, or in some cases, similar weapons.

AC/20 Ghost Heat stacks with anything else. It's a 1 + Any-other-weapon type of stack.

[Telmasa]

The ghost heat should be reduced; it needs to stay, but not quite to the extent it is now, I think.

[JadeTimberwolf]

I am all for removing ghost heat to cause heat effects to fall more in line with TT but would change all heat profiles to match TT as well, then allow heat generating weapons to have a minimum 6 sec CD between shots and heat sinks kick in ever 6 sec.

That takes away ghost heat as people want, and prevent PPC boats as well.

[Blackloch]

Nope. We don't need to remove it. You just need to adapt.

[Burktross]

I'm in favor of removing it if we implement Burktross's Convergence Ruleset™

Torso Mounted Weapons:
-Minimum convergence is decent
-Maximum convergence is never perfect.
-Convergence is slower
-less recoil.
 
Arm Mounted Weapons:
-Minimum Convergence is inaccurate
-Maximum convergence is near perfect
-Convergence is fast
-Most recoil

This would also validate arm mounts for heavy weapons! I'm looking at you, thunderbolt!

Edited by Burktross, 19 January 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Sandpit, on 26 November 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

I love it when people quote TT as a basis for their points. FYI, FASA was very strict on official tournament play. Your "house rules" with you and your buddies might have been different but take it from a former FASA Commando, you're quite wrong on this one

Right!?! All this TT this TT that on the forums of late has me cracking up. One person claimed 74,000 recorded damage over 10 days with flamers playing TT. I almost busted a gut laughing. FASA would have shredded what ever house rule was so broken that it might as well have come straight out of another game system all together for a person to have been able to do that kind of damage with flamers. Obviously not a sanctioned event that they did that at. (Granted true sanctioned events for Battletech/Mechwarrior TT haven't existed in over 15 years now.)

Edited by Death Drow, 19 January 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Oh but on ghost heat. Russ said in the townhall that he'd be up for trying a month without it to see if all the other balancing that has taken place have made it unneccesary today.

[destroika]

I am saying "no" only because of the current hit detection issues. Lasers and targeting weapons are the only reliable source of damage right now and ghost heat allows for some variety.

[VinJade]

isn't there a T-Bolt that allows a player to use three PPCs and can fire them all with very little to worry about?
though I don't like ghost heat as I use to pilot a commando and it heated up quickly if not careful and a standard 2D is one of the coolest running mechs out there.

only mech I never seen over heat is the LCT-1V(Which would be strange if it did build up heat quickly).