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Remove Ghost Heat


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Poll: Remove Ghost Heat (441 member(s) have cast votes)

Remove Ghost heat?

  1. Yes (277 votes [62.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 62.81%

  2. No (132 votes [29.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.93%

  3. I don't mind (32 votes [7.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.26%

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#1 Armored Yokai

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 03:57 PM

Its best that Ghost heat gets removed
Now that the lrms are buffed its best if ghost heat is removed to help combat it

Edited by Cementblade, 28 March 2014 - 08:20 PM.


#2 Degalus

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:16 AM

Im Happy with the Ghostheat. My Mechs was always "balanced" and the game dont changed for me after Ghostheatpatch.
Oh wait it does! I never saw a 6xPPC stalker anymore and only a handfull Splatcats.
Sry but a No from me.

#3 Armored Yokai

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostVictor Morson, on 16 November 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Before people jump in saying how it fixed 6 PPCs stalkers or more "LOL You just want 4 PPCs again LOL!" I would like to remind people of all the reasons Ghost Heat is the single worst game design element ever committed to a game:
  • Absolutely no UI. No indicators as to Ghost Heat limitations, when it kicks in, how much it has kicked in, etc. are given to players outside of that small hardcore handful of us that read the forums and/or spend time in Smurfy's. This is while they try to appeal to a casual demographic, no less.
  • Rewards Macros and External Programs. Due to reason #1, the half-second timer isn't even indicated to the player so they know when it is safe to fire again. Thus most good players running boated weapons turn to macros to time it for them, while more casual players lose damage by trying to count it in their head, risking firing too early and cooking themselves.
  • Many weapons nerf'ed that weren't problems. 9 MedLas? Not a problem. 4 Large Lasers? Not a problem. 4 AC/2? Not worth noting. Yet, these were all implemented hard and fast and have not been tweaked once.
  • Completely illogical linking. 1x LRM20 3x LRM10 = 4x LRM20 Ghost Heat for 50 missiles. 2x LRM20 2x LRM5 = 0 Ghost Heat for 50 missiles. The list continues. Should ER Large and Large Pulse really be linked together?
  • It's massively overly complicated. I know where the limits start and learned all the bizarre linkage rules, like how LRM5s are exempt, Streaks don't count towards a limit, how LPL and ER Large share a pool, etc. But then we get to the actual heat calculation which.. God help you. All most of us deal with is "Over X = Bad." But there is no rhyme, reason, or clarity at any given time as to why some ghost heat is so much worse than others, without complicated charts from the developer (that made things even worse) and large tables of numbers that actually at least show us some results (3rd party fanbase).
  • Most of all, it didn't really work. What ultimately killed the PPC boat was fixing the XML data file for the PPCs. 4 PPC Stalkers - which were far better than 6 - continued until the day that happened, as did the general PPC Meta. There was a sharp drop in boat builds after Ghost Heat arrived but almost all of them were by people who didn't understand the rules for it and overcompensated with horrible builds. Twin AC/20 builds remain popular and pinpoint damage wasn't impacted in the slightest, just different weapons were used for it.
I could go on and on with examples and problems but there have been probably 2,000 pages devoted to why Ghost Heat is seriously the worst thing ever. It should have been vetted by all the programmers along the way and it should have been shutdown at the meeting the idea was brought up. Ghost Heat is probably the reason so much hate got poured directly onto one person, because that person is either both blind to the reaction or too stubborn to listen.


victor pretty much summed it up for ghost heat.

#4 oldradagast

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:38 AM

Theory behind ghost heat: to reduce high-alpha builds of single weapons, mostly energy weapons.

Why it is no longer needed - what has changed since then:

1) PPC's and ERPPC's now are much hotter (using table top values) so they are not as effective when boated.

2) Gauss Rifle is now a charge-up weapon, so it cannot as easily be fire-linked with several PPC's for a huge, high alpha hit to a single location.

3) PPC's now have a minimum range as in table top, so they are no longer the best weapon in all situations.

4) Jump jet shake has been added and jump-jet flight dynamics are different, making jump sniping somewhat less easy and effective.

5) Overheating is now more dangerous for a mech, making that 6 PPC Stalker even less effective.

Why Ghost Heat is not a great idea:

1) Even if it were explained in game, it is still a clunky, odd, and non-intuitive system. Random, huge heat penalties on weapons just feels off.

2) It punishes energy based build heavily. The game is currently all about auto-cannons, which is not surprising given the nature of host heat the overall slow heat dissipation rate. Getting rid of ghost heat would allow energy builds to once again be viable.

Edited by oldradagast, 24 November 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#5 Degalus

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM

View Postoldradagast, on 24 November 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Theory behind ghost heat: to reduce high-alpha builds of single weapons, mostly energy weapons.

Why it is no longer needed - what has changed since then:

1) PPC's and ERPPC's now are much hotter (using table top values) so they are not as effective when boated.

2) Gauss Rifle is now a charge-up weapon, so it cannot as easily be fire-linked with several PPC's for a huge, high alpha hit to a single location.

3) PPC's now have a minimum range as in table top, so they are no longer the best weapon in all situations.

4) Jump jet shake has been added and jump-jet flight dynamics are different, making jump sniping somewhat less easy and effective.

5) Overheating is now more dangerous for a mech, making that 6 PPC Stalker even less effective.

Why Ghost Heat is not a great idea:

1) Even if it were explained in game, it is still a clunky, odd, and non-intuitive system. Random, huge heat penalties on weapons just feels off.

2) It punishes energy based build heavily. The game is currently all about auto-cannons, which is not surprising given the nature of host heat the overall slow heat dissipation rate. Getting rid of ghost heat would allow energy builds to once again be viable.


1. How does that stop the 6xerppc stalker? Without Ghostheat he could fire one salvo without overheating like before. Sure the second shot need little more cooldown but he can still alpha them. Dont want the Stalker PPC nightmare again.

2. Not realy see many ppc gauss combos before ghostheat ... the 2xppc 1xgauss combo was the workaround after the Ghostheatpatch.

3.Still can use ERPPC in close combat, now better then before because hitdetection and hitboxes has improved.

4.never see a PPC Stalker or ac40 jager JJing and the splatcat dont realy need so much accuracy.

5. If you can Pilot a Mech you can avoid Overheating and without Ghostheat the Alphameta comes back in his full strength

Srly the only mechs how cant handle the Ghostheat are the Alphaboating ones like PPC Stalker, Splatcat, AC40 Jager. If you also use a highalphaboat and have problems with ghostheat im sorry for you but just use balanced builds.

Oh and
1.K here is a point. I have nowhere a screen that says me anything about how many of a weapon can be used without ghostheat.

2.It was a Lasermetabefore, because you dont need Ammo and much less tonnage. Currently i see many nice weaponmixes and balanced builds then before ghostheat.

Ghostheat did a good job in reducing Highalpha and boating soooo ..... DONT BOATING if you cant handle the heat :)

ps.: i dont want to be the bad guy here. But just say "remove ghostheat" without mention any good plan to avoid the old problems, let me think that you are just one of the high alpha i win button lovers.

Edited by Degalus, 24 November 2013 - 10:08 AM.


#6 Degalus

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

Ps.s.:
I must agree with some of the victor quote. Ghostheat need to balanced because of some points that victor mentioned but not removed.

#7 Sandpit

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:16 PM

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this :D

#8 Cyberiad

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:34 PM

They should remove gauss charge as well.. heres why:

1. It makes the game seem unpolished and bandaged.
2. Doesn't even serve a purpose; the dev's say they are trying to make the weapon role specific but most people will agree that what they mean is that they don't want poptarts with ppc/gauss alphas. However, the charge mechanic did not fix this, I can still sync ppcs with gauss firing perfectly fine, just hold down left mouse button for gauss, then when the icon is green let go of the right mouse button while hitting the left mouse button for ppc at the same time. I can accurately hit 1 location on a mech perfectly fine with both weapons while poptarting so the charge mechanic fixed nothing. And even then, gauss/ppc combo isn't even that good, at most a mech can do 2 ppcs and one gauss for 35 damage but most of the time its 1 ppc and 1 gauss for a total of 25 damage. What the charge mechanic does do, however is make mechs that weren't that great in the first place even worse: the AS7-K. With the gauss mechanic introduced, the AS7-K is almost completely useless vs close range light mechs while the other Atlas variants can do fine by swatting them with an AC, however now the gauss rifle is extremely hard to use vs close range light mechs while still remaining very easy to use by poptarts. The mechanic aimed at somewhat effective poptarts is now ruining already ineffective mechs.

Edited by SiliconLife, 25 November 2013 - 12:35 PM.


#9 Sidekick

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:11 PM

I don´t get how removing a gameplay element enriches the game in any way.

It´s like the removal/fx of knockdown. or the removal/fix of RnR.

Edited by Sidekick, 25 November 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#10 990Dreams

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:06 PM

A few things:
1: By firing multiple weapons, your heat sinks get overwhelmed (you have to know how heat dissipation works to get this).
2: It adds a challenge to the game
3: No 4x ERPPC Stalkers

View PostSiliconLife, on 25 November 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

They should remove gauss charge as well.. heres why:

1. It makes the game seem unpolished and bandaged.
2. Doesn't even serve a purpose; the dev's say they are trying to make the weapon role specific but most people will agree that what they mean is that they don't want poptarts with ppc/gauss alphas. However, the charge mechanic did not fix this, I can still sync ppcs with gauss firing perfectly fine, just hold down left mouse button for gauss, then when the icon is green let go of the right mouse button while hitting the left mouse button for ppc at the same time. I can accurately hit 1 location on a mech perfectly fine with both weapons while poptarting so the charge mechanic fixed nothing. And even then, gauss/ppc combo isn't even that good, at most a mech can do 2 ppcs and one gauss for 35 damage but most of the time its 1 ppc and 1 gauss for a total of 25 damage. What the charge mechanic does do, however is make mechs that weren't that great in the first place even worse: the AS7-K. With the gauss mechanic introduced, the AS7-K is almost completely useless vs close range light mechs while the other Atlas variants can do fine by swatting them with an AC, however now the gauss rifle is extremely hard to use vs close range light mechs while still remaining very easy to use by poptarts. The mechanic aimed at somewhat effective poptarts is now ruining already ineffective mechs.


Adding to your idea:
1: You should be able to lock your gauss charge/auto charge it
2: If the rifle is destroyed when the capacitor is charges it should explode. Otherwise nothing should happen

#11 Col Jaime Wolf

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:16 AM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 25 November 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

A few things: 1: By firing multiple weapons, your heat sinks get overwhelmed (you have to know how heat dissipation works to get this). 2: It adds a challenge to the game 3: No 4x ERPPC Stalkers Adding to your idea: 1: You should be able to lock your gauss charge/auto charge it 2: If the rifle is destroyed when the capacitor is charges it should explode. Otherwise nothing should happen


"heat sinks get overwhelmed"

facepalm.....
your heatsinks get overwhelmed in TT when you try to cram 4 erppcs in a mech and fire with only 10 standard heat sinks because your expecting 10 heatsinks to cool 40+ heat. either the builders intention was a joke or he had no concept of how mechs are designed.

so i say (why i have to i don't know)
if a mech makes 30 heat from its weapons but also has 30 heat worth of heat dissipation then it can fire its weapons all day long, chain fired or alpha striking. it doesn't matter because it was built with enough heatsinks to handle it. there is no "saturation of the heatsinks" going on in a properly built mech.

"saturation of the heatsinks" <- also does not happen, its about temperature differentials. the larger the delta (temp dif vs surface area contact) between two surfaces the faster the heat moves to total equilibrium relative to the thermal resistance of those two elements(which changes with various factors).

what happens when heatsinks "overheat" is that whatever they are cooling, overheats and likely melts.

the heat-sinks themselves are not really "damaged" or get "overexerted" by too much heat. eventually they melt physically too but what really happens when a mech's fusion engine containment fails and is no longer able to contain/manage its own heat (usually a result of battle damage) and heat (or other things that reside in a fusion engine) then spews into the mech melting and destroying internal parts and eventually the engine itself goes critical and boom.

fukoshima is a perfect example, the heat containment system failed because of the hurricane and BOOOM the cores went thermal blasting the roofs and the walls off of the containment buildings and spewing all sorts of nasties into the open.

but i bet the physical heat exchangers in fukoshima are still somewhat intact (even if not operational).

however, mechs are built to use their heat sinks to maximum efficiency. thus why you find many mechs in TT that can only fire their long range weapons in a given turn, or their med+short range weapons in a turn.
but never that ac-20 with a 2x PPC's. no no no. in TT the low heat limit makes all sorts of mechs IN THIS GAME completely unmanageable in a way ghost heat couldnt even dream of.

QQ is not valid in real war. they don't really nerf weapons/builds because they seem overpowered. i mean we only have been making smaller atom bombs since the 60's right? or wrong? better or worse tanks/aircrafts/ships since WWII?

rather in real life and in TT mechs became more and more pointed to their purpose and in essence much more powerful and deadlier then old school stock mechs.

ghost heat says your heat bar is a total lie. that's all. ghost heat is not good/bad/indifferent. it just blatantly lets you know that your heat rating is total bullocks. ->truth <- my problem with it, completely BS game element, not steeped in science and battletech lore but some strange... idk words escape me.

that is why people are having issue with ghost heat is because the interpreted interaction with this phenomena appears to come from dimension X folding in on itself and that this collapse manifests itself in our dimension as ghost heat. no reason no rhyme, nothing for us mechheads that crunch these numbers religiously.

so why even have a heat bar at all? i mean its all relative anyway hot, cold... all the same in its own way right?



i mean is there any defence really for this? really? the smallest guns next to small lasers and machine guns? make the MOST heat? bah. people can QQ all they want about "it fixes this or that" all the time avoiding the fact that ghost heat MAKES more problems THEN it solves.

Edited by Mellifluer, 26 November 2013 - 12:26 AM.


#12 Daniel Travieso

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 04:37 AM

Disagree.

Ghost heat is the only thing that keeps the makro users from having SMG rate of fire with AC's.

You're lucky using macros/scripts isn't considered cheating, so stop whining about it.

#13 990Dreams

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:29 AM

Hang on tight, I am going to explain the nature of heat in a paragraph.

So according to the laws of thermodynamics (how heat behaves) heat goes to cold. It also describes hat as an accumulative effect. So if I fire something with 10 heat, then I get 10 heat and my 2 heat sinks kick in. But if I fire something with 10 heat and 10 heat at once, my only 2 heat sinks have to work together to kick in, lowering the initial rate of cooling efficiency and thus giving me more overall heat, because heating is accumulative and cooling is not.

#14 focuspark

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:25 AM

View PostDaniel Travieso, on 26 November 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Disagree.

Ghost heat is the only thing that keeps the makro users from having SMG rate of fire with AC's.

You're lucky using macros/scripts isn't considered cheating, so stop whining about it.

The devs could... I dunno, limit the number of weapons which could be fired at once. OR remove weapon conversion. OR add in a hit randomization which takes into account the number of weapons firing to make them more inaccurate as the number increases. OR only allow a single weapon to fire every 0.25 second when "alpha firing" which would cause a very fast chain fire effect. OR two dozen other possibilities.

Ghost heat is one of the most confusing, non-obvious, and un-fun methods they could have chose. Paul chose poorly!

#15 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

I didn't vote, as I would pick "Yes" and "No" at the same time.

"Yes", remove ghost heat, BUT only if an alternative solution to prevent boating is introduced.

"No", don't remove ghost heat, BUT only if all those flaws that Victor pointed out are corrected.

#16 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostThorn Hallis, on 26 November 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I didn't vote, as I would pick "Yes" and "No" at the same time.

"Yes", remove ghost heat, BUT only if an alternative solution to prevent pinpoint front loaded alphas is introduced.

"No", don't remove ghost heat, BUT only if all those flaws that Victor pointed out are corrected.


FTFY

#17 Sandpit

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostMellifluer, on 26 November 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:


"heat sinks get overwhelmed"

facepalm.....
your heatsinks get overwhelmed in TT when you try to cram 4 erppcs in a mech and fire with only 10 standard heat sinks because your expecting 10 heatsinks to cool 40+ heat. either the builders intention was a joke or he had no concept of how mechs are designed.

so i say (why i have to i don't know)
if a mech makes 30 heat from its weapons but also has 30 heat worth of heat dissipation then it can fire its weapons all day long, chain fired or alpha striking. it doesn't matter because it was built with enough heatsinks to handle it. there is no "saturation of the heatsinks" going on in a properly built mech.


no, no it doesn't That only happens if it's standing still and completely stationary. Otherwise it generates +1 heat for walking +2 heat for running and/or +x heat for number of movement points spent jumping.

"Properly built mechs" are stock mechs you find in the TROs, how many of those "properly" built mechs are heat neutral?
The kind of "properly" built mechs you're speaking of are almost universally disdained amongst TT players and the reason that any tournament you play in has build restrictions and just about any GM who puts together a campaign in TT isn't going to let players completely munch out any of their custom builds (if you're nice enough to have a GM who even lets you use a custom build in the first place)

I love it when people quote TT as a basis for their points. FYI, FASA was very strict on official tournament play. Your "house rules" with you and your buddies might have been different but take it from a former FASA Commando, you're quite wrong on this one

#18 Troutmonkey

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:43 PM

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


1. How does that stop the 6xerppc stalker? Without Ghostheat he could fire one salvo without overheating like before. Sure the second shot need little more cooldown but he can still alpha them. Dont want the Stalker PPC nightmare again.


They are stupidly hot now even without Ghost heat

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


2. Not realy see many ppc gauss combos before ghostheat ... the 2xppc 1xgauss combo was the workaround after the Ghostheatpatch.

Don't know where you were during that time, but every mech and his dog had one (including me towards the end). They've since been replaced with 2x PPC 1xAC5.

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


3.Still can use ERPPC in close combat, now better then before because hitdetection and hitboxes has improved.

ERPPC has even more extra heat than the PPC. It's hopeless to brawl with because you'll overheat will before any other mech.

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


4.never see a PPC Stalker or ac40 jager JJing and the splatcat dont realy need so much accuracy.


I still see AC40 Jagers nearly every second game. Ghost hit didn't do squat to stop them

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


5. If you can Pilot a Mech you can avoid Overheating and without Ghostheat the Alphameta comes back in his full strength


Not really, it just makes energy equal to AC again. The only OP weapon was PPC, which was nerfed with extra heat, 90m min zone, and slower projectile speed.

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


Srly the only mechs how cant handle the Ghostheat are the Alphaboating ones like PPC Stalker, Splatcat, AC40 Jager. If you also use a highalphaboat and have problems with ghostheat im sorry for you but just use balanced builds.


I can barely use LL's on my Stalker now. Chain firing them means more time on target, during this time an AC mech can do almost double that damage and never overheat.

View PostDegalus, on 24 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:


Oh and
1.K here is a point. I have nowhere a screen that says me anything about how many of a weapon can be used without ghostheat.

2.It was a Lasermetabefore, because you dont need Ammo and much less tonnage. Currently i see many nice weaponmixes and balanced builds then before ghostheat.

Ghostheat did a good job in reducing Highalpha and boating soooo ..... DONT BOATING if you cant handle the heat :blink:

ps.: i dont want to be the bad guy here. But just say "remove ghostheat" without mention any good plan to avoid the old problems, let me think that you are just one of the high alpha i win button lovers.



#19 Troutmonkey

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:46 PM

View PostSiliconLife, on 25 November 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

They should remove gauss charge as well.. heres why:

1. It makes the game seem unpolished and bandaged.
2. Doesn't even serve a purpose; the dev's say they are trying to make the weapon role specific but most people will agree that what they mean is that they don't want poptarts with ppc/gauss alphas. However, the charge mechanic did not fix this, I can still sync ppcs with gauss firing perfectly fine, just hold down left mouse button for gauss, then when the icon is green let go of the right mouse button while hitting the left mouse button for ppc at the same time. I can accurately hit 1 location on a mech perfectly fine with both weapons while poptarting so the charge mechanic fixed nothing. And even then, gauss/ppc combo isn't even that good, at most a mech can do 2 ppcs and one gauss for 35 damage but most of the time its 1 ppc and 1 gauss for a total of 25 damage. What the charge mechanic does do, however is make mechs that weren't that great in the first place even worse: the AS7-K. With the gauss mechanic introduced, the AS7-K is almost completely useless vs close range light mechs while the other Atlas variants can do fine by swatting them with an AC, however now the gauss rifle is extremely hard to use vs close range light mechs while still remaining very easy to use by poptarts. The mechanic aimed at somewhat effective poptarts is now ruining already ineffective mechs.

Speed was greatly de-synced for PPC and Guass, now that Guass is faster and PPC is slower. It's unlikely you'll hit both shots in the same spot on a moving mech at any range.

#20 Troutmonkey

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostDaniel Travieso, on 26 November 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Disagree.

Ghost heat is the only thing that keeps the makro users from having SMG rate of fire with AC's.

You're lucky using macros/scripts isn't considered cheating, so stop whining about it.


Chain firing AC2's doesn't increase the DPS at all, in fact it stops them from achieving pinpoint damage, which is a good thing. If screen shake becomes a problem, tone down the screen shake. Have chain fired AC2's overheat you mech in second is a terrible solution to a problem that never existed

Edited by Troutmonkey, 26 November 2013 - 09:52 PM.






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