71 replies to this topic

[Graywar]

ssm, on 29 December 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Well, David White's drawings show that at least he tried to make it look more like this supposed "Wolverine IIC", but failed. For one simple reason - Alex's work has shown that good redesign should at least incorporate some specific details from original TRO artwork while making it more functional/utitlitarian (if not for aesthetic reason, then at least for modelling/animation)

That wasn't the case here, because original TRO Hellhound/Conjurer has no specific, eye catching details. It hardly has any details at all. Only thing distict about it is "Looks somewhat like bland, generic child of female autobot and Woleverine" (which they couldn't incorporate to their game anyway)

So David White instead of trying to work something essentialy unworkable decided to set lore aside and created one of the most iconic MW games designs ever. And it was a good decision - it was good for MW4, and it would be good for TT, because really - Battletech is currently so deprived of good mech designs, that best course would be to just errata out this whole "Wolverine IIC" fluff and just call it a day.



Because BT universe deserves way better than designs looking like made by lazy 5 year olds between their nappy times.

But like Lucky Moniker said before, why did they call it Hellhound when it is a completely different mech anyway? Or why did they use the Hellhound when there were tons of other Clan 50 tonners available?

The MW4 Design may be good, but calling it Hellhound was a mistake. And to be honest, I find most MW4 designs rather ugly.

Edited by Graywar, 21 January 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[ssm]

Graywar, on 21 January 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

But like Lucky Moniker said before, why did they call it Hellhound when it is a completely different mech anyway? Or why did they use the Hellhound when there were tons of other Clan 50 tonners available?

The MW4 Design may be good, but calling it Hellhound was a mistake. And to be honest, I find most MW4 designs rather ugly.

That's why:



I guess he started with bad, generic & lazy original artwork, and got to the point when he had to choose between making slightly better looking bad, generic & lazy design based off piece of fluff and making Hellhound something actually good looking.

And he chose right.

[Hawk819]

Definitely, most certainly. . . .A!!!

Reason: Harmony Gold and those that hold the original Hellhound's art will ***** about it being added to the game. Besides, I love the remake better.

[Fang01]

hawk819, on 21 January 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Definitely, most certainly. . . .A!!!

Reason: Harmony Gold and those that hold the original Hellhound's art will ***** about it being added to the game. Besides, I love the remake better.

Ugh. Wolverine was the T10b Blockhead from Fang of the sun: Dougram. Produced by SUNRISE and distributed by Bandai...who no longer exists here. They couldnt care less.

[Gumon Choji]

To post to your comments. The first comparison I would go with B the old school looking one. For the black knight the new image is amazing but I would like it with the old head. I say this as it loots totally different and really yhe mech is almost all head. Now for the crab. The image that you made is spectacular. I always though it was a silly mech that had no place in this world till I saw your image. I am impressed and actually would over to have one now. Good job.

About the copyright questions. Harmony gold owns old LAM mechs, Transformers, riflemen not jaggers, warhammers not orion the other stuff is Bandai and they love to sell their property to other parties for a price. If we are willing to pay they would let the clan versions of macross mechs apear (they were all old Gundam modles with different heads. Look at the skirts to see it. In general they are cooler as they could let it happen as long as we pony up the license fees. Dorgum is not the juggernaught that Gundam is and was so they let those intelectual properties go ar reasonable prices. Thus we have griffins and wolverines. But never expect harmony gold to loosen it,s hold on Macross as it is a lesson in copyright law in Japan as how to get screwed internationally. The contract is so solid America has been unable to see Macross legally for many generations. I do not fault them for getting potentially the best contract in history but we do need to deal with it as fans.

If you want to know what we missed just watch the anime Macross Zero. It has plot and amazing action.

[Fang01]

Gumon Choji, on 21 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

To post to your comments. The first comparison I would go with B the old school looking one. For the black knight the new image is amazing but I would like it with the old head. I say this as it loots totally different and really yhe mech is almost all head. Now for the crab. The image that you made is spectacular. I always though it was a silly mech that had no place in this world till I saw your image. I am impressed and actually would over to have one now. Good job.

About the copyright questions. Harmony gold owns old LAM mechs, Transformers, riflemen not jaggers, warhammers not orion the other stuff is Bandai and they love to sell their property to other parties for a price. If we are willing to pay they would let the clan versions of macross mechs apear (they were all old Gundam modles with different heads. Look at the skirts to see it. In general they are cooler as they could let it happen as long as we pony up the license fees. Dorgum is not the juggernaught that Gundam is and was so they let those intelectual properties go ar reasonable prices. Thus we have griffins and wolverines. But never expect harmony gold to loosen it,s hold on Macross as it is a lesson in copyright law in Japan as how to get screwed internationally. The contract is so solid America has been unable to see Macross legally for many generations. I do not fault them for getting potentially the best contract in history but we do need to deal with it as fans.

If you want to know what we missed just watch the anime Macross Zero. It has plot and amazing action.

Harmony Gold is an AMERICAN company. Studio Nue's interests have nothing to do with it, in fact Crusher Joe is also a Studio Nue property but we still have locust's and leopards don't we?

[Graywar]

ssm, on 21 January 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

That's why:



I guess he started with bad, generic & lazy original artwork, and got to the point when he had to choose between making slightly better looking bad, generic & lazy design based off piece of fluff and making Hellhound something actually good looking.

And he chose right.

That doesn't answer my question. They could still rename the mech when it became clear that it was something completely different.

Edited by Graywar, 21 January 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[ssm]

Graywar, on 21 January 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

That doesn't answer my first question. They could still rename the mech when it became clear that it was something completely different.

It really does - they didn't want to invent mech from ground up (because of IP?), so they made a decision to go with redesign. In most cases it's not necessary - but in this, given how bad (even by rock-bottom low 80s BT standards) original TRO artwork looks, it really did.

Only thing that really could be in favor of original TRO look is this piece of fluff that says it's "essentially Wolverine IIC", but I'd rather have good looking Hellhound and retcon the fluff.

[Hawk819]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 21 January 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Ugh. Wolverine was the T10b Blockhead from Fang of the sun: Dougram. Produced by SUNRISE and distributed by Bandai...who no longer exists here. They couldnt care less.

Don't be so sure about that. Look at Topps, and other companies. Just cause one doesn't exist does not mean they won't care about copyright.

[Wolf Ender]

i like the MW4 design better for the hellhound... but i don't think its a very cool design in the first place and dont really look forward to seeing it in the game

We need ALL the clan mechs from MW2 and Ghost Bear's Legacy FIRST

and then after we get those the next clan mech i would like to see would be the Cauldron Born / Ebon Jaguar

[Graywar]

ssm, on 21 January 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

It really does - they didn't want to invent mech from ground up (because of IP?), so they made a decision to go with redesign. In most cases it's not necessary - but in this, given how bad (even by rock-bottom low 80s BT standards) original TRO artwork looks, it really did.

But that's pretty much what they did. There's nothing about the mech that resembles the Hellhound in any way, not even the loadout.

[Craig Steele]

The Hellhound is not the Wolverine IIC.

There was a Wolverine IIC, it was originally a mech for the SLDF Royal divisions and was a very handy mech, there were about 30 prototypes made and it entered production late in the Amaris war. It was not a mech produced in large numbers.

All remaining Wolverine IIC's went with Kerensky.

The chassis was popular with Clan Wolverine (for obvious reasons). After it's annihilation ALL Clans SCRAPPED ALL examples of the Wolverine IIC, it no longer exists except as a historical record. (Source, p168 Operation Klondike source book)

The Hellhound was developed subsequently to fill the role the Wolverine did in the Clan toumans, it entered production about 6 years after Clan Wolverine was wiped out. It is a brand new mech, different weight, weapons, jump capability.

There is some artwork of the Hellhound on Sarna showing a thicker top half, it look spretty sexy imo.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 16 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

The Hellhound is not the Wolverine IIC.

There was a Wolverine IIC, it was originally a mech for the SLDF Royal divisions and was a very handy mech, there were about 30 prototypes made and it entered production late in the Amaris war. It was not a mech produced in large numbers.

All remaining Wolverine IIC's went with Kerensky.

The chassis was popular with Clan Wolverine (for obvious reasons). After it's annihilation ALL Clans SCRAPPED ALL examples of the Wolverine IIC, it no longer exists except as a historical record. (Source, p168 Operation Klondike source book)

The Hellhound was developed subsequently to fill the role the Wolverine did in the Clan toumans, it entered production about 6 years after Clan Wolverine was wiped out. It is a brand new mech, different weight, weapons, jump capability.

There is some artwork of the Hellhound on Sarna showing a thicker top half, it look spretty sexy imo.

The Mech was not scrapped, just the name.

B.

Edited by Nathan K, 16 February 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 16 February 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

The Mech was not scrapped, just the name.

B.

According to the Source Book (Operation Klondike) it was scrapped.

Which is why the artwork should be different, its a new mech.

[LightningStorm]

A! of course, I dont really like humanoid looking mechs.

[Graywar]

Craig Steele, on 16 February 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

The Hellhound is not the Wolverine IIC.

There was a Wolverine IIC, it was originally a mech for the SLDF Royal divisions and was a very handy mech, there were about 30 prototypes made and it entered production late in the Amaris war. It was not a mech produced in large numbers.

All remaining Wolverine IIC's went with Kerensky.

The chassis was popular with Clan Wolverine (for obvious reasons). After it's annihilation ALL Clans SCRAPPED ALL examples of the Wolverine IIC, it no longer exists except as a historical record. (Source, p168 Operation Klondike source book)

The Hellhound was developed subsequently to fill the role the Wolverine did in the Clan toumans, it entered production about 6 years after Clan Wolverine was wiped out. It is a brand new mech, different weight, weapons, jump capability.

There is some artwork of the Hellhound on Sarna showing a thicker top half, it look spretty sexy imo.

You're wrong, the Hellhound IS the Wolverine IIC. They just renamed the mech so it doesn't bear the name of the not-named clan. This has even been confirmed by the canon authors.

The "IIC" designation stands for "second generation, clan technology". During the Amaris War the Clans didn't exist yet, so a "Wolverine IIC" couldn't have existed back then.

If you really got your information from the "Operation Klondike" sourcebook (which I didn't read yet), I'd simply say the book is wrong in this case.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Easy and quick answer: A

[zudukai]

~21 upvotes for option A

~9 for option b

[Craig Steele]

Graywar, on 18 February 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

You're wrong, the Hellhound IS the Wolverine IIC. They just renamed the mech so it doesn't bear the name of the not-named clan. This has even been confirmed by the canon authors.

The "IIC" designation stands for "second generation, clan technology". During the Amaris War the Clans didn't exist yet, so a "Wolverine IIC" couldn't have existed back then.

If you really got your information from the "Operation Klondike" sourcebook (which I didn't read yet), I'd simply say the book is wrong in this case.

cbf

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 February 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[zudukai]

SHAMELESS BUMP!