I agree with the OP. Make the clans a seperate faction that you have to choose to play.
IS drops get 12 man, and a certain tonnage limits,
Clan drops get a 5 or 10 man with half of those tonnage limits.
The issue I have with them saying that they will do a pass to make them more "skill" based I feel is fine given that the Clan mechs advantage was just as much about the pilots driving the things then the weapons themselves.
But that still doesn't negate the tonnage / cannon efficiency advantage.
Even if you had clan weapons do EXACTLY what IS weapons do, you are still going to have the advantages to construction and weight efficiency's that make them EXTREMELY more efficient then their IS counterparts.
M-pulses that come in at half the tonnage, Frames that take up less critical slots Clan DOUBLE heatsinks only taking up two crit slots, Missile launchers being nearly half the tonnage.
No amount of weapon balance work can balance out the loadouts that are set BY CANNON. And I'm sure their will be a much larger **** storm if you not only can't use clan weapons but the actual Cannon clan designs are altered because they no longer follow the same construction rules due to "balancing" of their loadouts.
I mean just look at the Direwolf Prime. It pretty much maxes out nearly all of its pod space even with the Clan's smaller weapons. Even if the game kept the actual weapons shooting at exactly the same rate as their IS counterparts, it won't make up for the construction rules that allow the mechs to be made in the first place.
Keep them separate drops. Keep IS forces deploying in 12 mans with double the weight restrictions as the clan players.
Given that Clan mechs are superior to IS mechs, I like the idea of having Clan mechs having to face off against superior numbers of IS mechs.
This could be accomplished through tonnage limitations. For the sake of argument, we'll say that Clan mechs, ton for ton, are twice as powerful as IS mechs. To balance matches then, Clan mech tonnage would count as double that of IS mechs.
Have you ever looked at their status in the tabletop version of Battletech? If the clans kept their traditional status from the TT game and put into MWO, it will hurt the game. Even though there are some people among the community who can except change, the newer players will jump to the Clans for all the wrong reasons. They don't care about the lore, or upholding Clan rules, they only want to say that "My weapons are better than yours, Inner Sphere tech is stupid." Don't get me wrong, the Clans are noted for superior tech and skill, but when they share the heat as their IS counterparts it is really an unfair advantage to being a clanner, especially when you look at their damage outputs. Also speaking of damage outputs, the fact that an ER Large Laser shares the same damage as an IS PPC is pretty messed up. Think about fighting a 4x ER PPC Warhawk who does the same damage as a 6x PPC Stalker, with no heat penalty to punish it, that would be ridiculous to have. The clan's damage output should still be powerful, but decreased to an extent to avoid massive damage from the Tabletop and heat should be raised to stop the unfair advantage the clans get while firing weapons.
How do you balance uneven drops?
2:1 may not be enough with pure tt weapons (double uac 20 hello!).
And how do you do matching? Pure tonnage? Light plus assault >> med plus heavy.
Clan light mechs are terrifying.
There's no conceivable way to do good matchmaking. It works better in tt because rng makes superiority less o bvious and both players agree to the entire makeup. We would need 20 people to agree.
If you allow clan tech in inner sphere mechs, the game eliminates inner sphere weapons alogethe OR the game becomes p2w because new players can't afford clan tech in a reasonable amount of time.
Also: clan xl: need I say more?
Even assuming players were prohibited from mixing tech and clan could never be on the same side as is, it's a matchmaking night mare.
As
The game would need LOls population and 3 years of data to make it work.
(Hopefully we can get the right feel with mismatched 10 v 12 private matches, stock, and just give the IS team 3 locusts to balance).
TL:DR clantech will probably ruin the game, but nerfing the {Scrap} out of it is the right approach. Think 20 heat 15 damage er ppcs with 5 second cds and 8 heat er mls dealing like only 5 damage but at double range!
I agree with the OP. Make the clans a seperate faction that you have to choose to play.
IS drops get 12 man, and a certain tonnage limits,
Clan drops get a 5 or 10 man with half of those tonnage limits.
The issue I have with them saying that they will do a pass to make them more "skill" based I feel is fine given that the Clan mechs advantage was just as much about the pilots driving the things then the weapons themselves.
But that still doesn't negate the tonnage / cannon efficiency advantage.
Even if you had clan weapons do EXACTLY what IS weapons do, you are still going to have the advantages to construction and weight efficiency's that make them EXTREMELY more efficient then their IS counterparts.
M-pulses that come in at half the tonnage, Frames that take up less critical slots Clan DOUBLE heatsinks only taking up two crit slots, Missile launchers being nearly half the tonnage.
No amount of weapon balance work can balance out the loadouts that are set BY CANNON. And I'm sure their will be a much larger **** storm if you not only can't use clan weapons but the actual Cannon clan designs are altered because they no longer follow the same construction rules due to "balancing" of their loadouts.
I mean just look at the Direwolf Prime. It pretty much maxes out nearly all of its pod space even with the Clan's smaller weapons. Even if the game kept the actual weapons shooting at exactly the same rate as their IS counterparts, it won't make up for the construction rules that allow the mechs to be made in the first place.
Keep them separate drops. Keep IS forces deploying in 12 mans with double the weight restrictions as the clan players.
For all that I think PGI is probably taking the right approach, these are super valid points.
I will say I wouldn't touch any clan phoenix package until everything is fully implemented.
I would guess though the balance here is that you can't possibly fire all those weapons if they all do twice the heat :-).
This is bad thing number one. You are encouraging exodus to clan tech, which trivializes IS tech.
Game designers dont make entire systems, and then introduce new systems thereby rendering the old ones inferior, stop glorifying overpowered gear.
Clan mechs and weapons WILL be nerfed. PGI has stated this and Randal Bills, the man who created the clans, supports it. Clan tech will however bring a DIFFERENT flavour to the field. Do you understand? Clan tech cannot be BETTER than IS tech, but it can be DIFFERENT.
Also if you try to balance by facing 10 clanners against 12 Inner Sphere, then what happens when mercenaries (who have access to tech via black market) buy clan tech and then field 12 clan tech mechs against 10 clanners or 12 inner sphere. You may as well throw your half baked system out the window at that point.
I have shot down these ****** little arguments countless times and will continue to do so until people stop clinging to their fantasies for easy win clan equipment.
You have not shot down this argument not by a long shot, If PGI Nerf Clan tech then there will be no point bring it out. and you have just proven that if causal player keep getting there way then there will be no point playing the game any more. I am getting fed up of causal player who keep crying to the devs for a nerf because they cant learn tactics or how fight in a battle.
There is no point buying a new Mech because you pretty much have same general hard points build across all mechs, The Ghost heat nerf has completely destroyed balance in the game everyone pretty much carries same 2 lasers as the other player giving a bland and boring game play. Have you seen anyone use PPC or GUASS rifle in any battles, I rarely see any of these weapons being used because they are now a liability. Any poor sod going into battle with a PPC or GUASS ether over heat or die quickly because they take to long to get a shot of with GUASS Rifle duo to the 2 button mash timing to get a shot off
Have you not noticed that the majority of Player stop playing this game because they are getting fed up of causal players whining to the devs for NERF this NERF that.
This game is sinking into the ground, all you need to do is go onto forums read reviews watch youtube videos to here what veteran player are saying when reviewing this game.
So do you understand you have not shut down this argument !!!, I have said all im going to say on this matter I have made my opinion herd that's all that matters
SIMPLE Solution to this silly little argument buy a clan mech yourself problem solved
Edited by Death Storm, 09 December 2013 - 12:11 PM.
Remember, we all are currently using readily available Star League tech, which only Comstar and Wolf's Dragoons had (for the most part) at the beginning of the clan invasion.
Also speaking of damage outputs, the fact that an ER Large Laser shares the same damage as an IS PPC is pretty messed up. Think about fighting a 4x ER PPC Warhawk who does the same damage as a 6x PPC Stalker, with no heat penalty to punish it, that would be ridiculous to have. The clan's damage output should still be powerful, but decreased to an extent to avoid massive damage from the Tabletop and heat should be raised to stop the unfair advantage the clans get while firing weapons.
It comes in at a heavy cost BV wise though.
The Values in TT are extreme, but not "game breaking." For all the advancements in Clan weapons, they don't have an advantage when it comes to armor.
In TT, this leads to a force that you KNOW is going to have superior firepower to the point where a 35 ton mech has the same damage output as an IS Awesome at a more extreme range. But that Adder is actually going to be 400 points MORE expensive then the Awesome... And that is before you even factor in the pilot skill. So in the end, a lance worth of awesome's are probably going to be the same BV cost of about 3 adders with clan pilots in them.... (Which side do you think has the advantage in that fight.)
In TT, Clan vs IS fights come down to a certain play styles.
IS players want to close the distance on the Clan mechs and bring their superior weight, numbers, and FORCE sized firepower to bear (given how cheap they get it.)
While the Clan player needs to focus on staying at range and picking IS mechs apart with their superior weapons and make themselves as tough as they can to hit. (As they don't get any advantages as far as armor they can equip on their mechs, and when you go in under toned, you know the IS side will almost ALWAYS have the armor advantage over you.)
Thing is, that this can't be done easily in THIS game, but I don't think it could mean the death of the game in general.
I mean, just imagine being a 5 man against 12 man force playing a game of conquest (superior mechs and all.) At somepoint, numbers in THIS game can mean a great deal more then they do in the TT. (Given you don't have to worry about things like cockpit shake etc.)
Death Storm, on 09 December 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:
You have not shot down this argument not by a long shot, If PGI Nerf Clan tech then there will be no point bring it out. and you have just proven that if causal player keep getting there way then there will be no point playing the game any more. I am getting fed up of causal player who keep crying to the devs for a nerf because they cant learn tactics or how fight in a battle.
PGI has stated that clan technology will be nerfed to a level that is equal to Inner sphere technology. They have also said that clan technology will bring a unique flavour to the battlefield. Do you understand? IT WILL BE DIFFERENT. THAT IS THE POINT! We dont yet know how it will be different. Perhaps extended range at the cost of damage, or increased damage at the cost of range or heat, we dont know, but pretending the overpoweredness of clan technology as it is away doesn't fix any problems.
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There is no point buying a new Mech because you pretty much have same general hard points build across all mechs, The Ghost heat nerf has completely destroyed balance in the game everyone pretty much carries same 2 lasers as the other player giving a bland and boring game play. Have you seen anyone use PPC or GAUSS rifle in any battles, I rarely see any of these weapons being used because they are now a liability. Any poor sod going into battle with a PPC or GUASS ether over heat or die quickly because they take to long to get a shot of with GUASS Rifle duo to the 2 button mash timing to get a shot off
The 2ppc gauss meta was a product of poor weapon balancing. Ghost heat was designed to increase the time it takes to destroy mechs whilst limiting the boating capabilities of more ludicrous boats like the 6ppc stalker. ALSO, the current meta is ppc-autocannon. I see an abundance of ERPPCs and PPCs still, so your understanding of the game in it's current state is flawed to say the least.
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Have you not noticed that the majority of Player stop playing this game because they are getting fed up of causal players whining to the devs for NERF this NERF that.
People are getting fed up because the game is making no visible headway. DX11 was promised october of last year with UI2.0 shortly after, and we still don't have it. "Whiners" have driven no one away. In fact, the only people that are whining are people like you, who think that nerfing clan tech is somehow a bad thing.
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This game is sinking into the ground, all you need to do is go onto forums read reviews watch youtube videos to here what veteran player are saying when reviewing this game.
Metacritic is hardly a source of honest reviews for any game. Either people enraged at 3rd person view have rated the game zero, or white knights have rated it 10 out of 10. Do your homework before making statements like this.
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So do you understand you have not shut down this argument !!!, I have said all im going to say on this matter I have made my opinion herd that's all that matters
SIMPLE Solution to this silly little argument buy a clan mech yourself problem solved
If the amazing simple solution is buy a clan mech, then PGI has failed as a developer to DESIGN the game in an efficient manner to make best use of ALL the assets it has provided you. I would like to introduce you to Randall Bills. http://mwomercs.com/...2-randall-bills
Mr. Bills was responsible for designing the clans in classic battle tech and has a few interesting things to say about them.
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I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.
Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.
I believe I have in fact systematically deconstructed every single "argument" you have just made here. Please come back another time with an actual brain to tell your hands what to type, because you don't seem to be using one at the moment.
ps: Your main argument is that there is no point in buying nerfed clan tech, but if they make the clan tech different then there will be a point in buying it. What you say is equivalent to saying there is no point to buying ppcs because i have large lasers already, when the two are DIFFERENT weapons. Just the same, clan er lasers will and should behave DIFFERENTLY than inner sphere lasers, therefore there is purpose to buying them. Additionally, OMNIMECHS, are very different from battlemechs. OMNIMECHS give you near complete freedom with loadouts, but at the cost of fixed armor and internals which you cannot modify, as opposed to Battlemechs which allow you to change armor values and internals, but are limited to hardpoints.
An alternate solution would be that if you want to play non-nerfed clan mechs, you have to earn it. By going up against those same clan mechs and maintain a 1:1 win/loss ratio for 1000 matches. And you have to do it with the regular IS mechs that are/will be available. You can customize them all you want, within the existing MWO setups.
Good luck with that.
As an old time wargamer/TT player, I saw what the introduction of clan tech did to the games. The only way for the clan player to lose was if he couldn't roll the dice to save his life or he was an ***** tactician. Numerical inferiority was not a good balance factor against clans, unless it got to the point of ridiculous. For the groups I played with, it ended up broken into two basic camps: all clan or no clan. And I think the no clan group had more fun and told better stories.
Clans will be introduced in a way to sell the most content to the greatest number of people. That means everything they have produced up to this point has to remain a viable and sellable product.
PGI has to balance the Clans with their existing mechs so that they don't make their former products obsolete. If clans are OP, they won't be able to sell any of the IS mechs which cost them money to produce.
All design decisions are business decisions. If the idea is bad for business, it's not gonna happen.
But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?
Because you said it yourself:
DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:
Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.
If you make them overpowered compared to IS mechs, and just rely on numbers imbalance to make everything equal you know what you're going to have? A whole lot of untouched IS mechs and even more 8 vs 8 (or whatever) Clan mechs. Also, what happens when say you have a team of 4 Clan mechs and 8 IS mechs. How do you balance teams then?
The Values in TT are extreme, but not "game breaking." For all the advancements in Clan weapons, they don't have an advantage when it comes to armor.
In TT, this leads to a force that you KNOW is going to have superior firepower to the point where a 35 ton mech has the same damage output as an IS Awesome at a more extreme range. But that Adder is actually going to be 400 points MORE expensive then the Awesome... And that is before you even factor in the pilot skill. So in the end, a lance worth of awesome's are probably going to be the same BV cost of about 3 adders with clan pilots in them.... (Which side do you think has the advantage in that fight.)
In TT, Clan vs IS fights come down to a certain play styles.
IS players want to close the distance on the Clan mechs and bring their superior weight, numbers, and FORCE sized firepower to bear (given how cheap they get it.)
While the Clan player needs to focus on staying at range and picking IS mechs apart with their superior weapons and make themselves as tough as they can to hit. (As they don't get any advantages as far as armor they can equip on their mechs, and when you go in under toned, you know the IS side will almost ALWAYS have the armor advantage over you.)
Thing is, that this can't be done easily in THIS game, but I don't think it could mean the death of the game in general.
I mean, just imagine being a 5 man against 12 man force playing a game of conquest (superior mechs and all.) At somepoint, numbers in THIS game can mean a great deal more then they do in the TT. (Given you don't have to worry about things like cockpit shake etc.)
I understand, it was one of those things that I was concerned about.
10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?
A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?
I agree with the outnumber thing. However, ghost heat isn't enough to actually deal with the huge difference in tech and locking thresholds to a specific number "is a game-wide nerf that hasn't been necessary yet"... So what else is there to do but change the tech a bit? Besides players would complain of uneven numbers. They complain about everything else, they will find a way.
At the very minimum the mechanics of inner sphere and clan tech would have to be different enough to demonstrate the difference in development between the constantly at war and politically motivated inner sphere and the battle-hardened, constantly improving and genetically engineered brilliant minds of the clanners (which ironically have never been depicted as intelligent in past MW games) to maintain and improve their tech. Thus at the very least they should have different mechanics with pros and cons both ways. Tabletop couldn't' hold most of these things but lore did have things that none of the past games have had. Example, more MG-like UACs compared to the very common burst-fire Inner Sphere ACs. It's my hope PGI looks to the lore for some of these. Some lasers were beam-style. Some instant (with a charge up), some sustained until overheated. Many differences worth comparing, and a big resource that could really diversify them to not only be balanced but also feel different enough to make them a unique and rewarding experience.
But let's wait until the big stuff like UI 2.0 and CW is out with some clan mechs on the table. Then let's toy with balance once we see it.
But, if you were interested in what I was referring to in terms of burst and automatic ACs, take a look at this post I did some time ago.
Spoiler
Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:
I'd much rather them look at lore as opposed to looking at how MekTek balanced MW4. In my opinion MW4 is as bad as MechAssault 2. I preferred MW3, which at least looked at the lore and made autocannons sound like burst fire weapons.
MW2 had them as fully automatic weapons (UAC/10 did 10 shots, UAC/20 did 20 shots).
Of course, lore is actually a combination of these things.
But first... There is no innersphere single shot AC/20 on mechs. Lore-wise humanoid chassis can't carry it due to it impeding movement and strong risks of losing balance. The largest AC/20 in the Inner Sphere arsenal is the 185mm 4 shot Chemjet Gun. Inner Sphere single-shot AC/20s exist exclusively in the form of turrets, bombers, and space-faring warships. There's rumor of a 100 ton tank but I still haven't found proof of it as I don't know my battletech tanks.
Of all the clan mechs, there is only one UAC/20 that fires single shot 20 damage with a double tap feature. It's carried by the shortest, most stable 65 ton mech there is (it's rarely depicted as taller than a 35 to 40 ton mech and is insanely long and wide with a body thickness similar to a Stalker), the Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born). It is the exclusive owner of a single shot UAC/20 that works akin to the UAC/5 in MWO.
Now for some comparisons. The Inner Sphere Hunchback's Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 is a 180mm 5 shot burst-fire autocannon. This means in a single trigger pull it spews 5 shots of 4 damage each in a burst. (Source: Tomodzuru = 180mm 5-shot (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback). It is depicted here in video on MechCommander. Notice the shots the AC/20 fires. Keep in mind that unlike the animation, anything describing this gun actually firing depicts it as slightly slower. Also take note of the Centurion (the tall ugly thing), notice the 3 shot AC/5? "GM Whirlwind", an AC/5 model (source: GM Whirlwind = 120mm 3 shot. There's mention of both burst and automatic fire versions. (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -featured on a Marauder)) but we'll come back to that.
In comparison, the Hunchback IIC is armed with a pair of "Devastator" UAC/20s. These are depicted as 6 rotating barrels, spewing out in a slow-firing machine-gun fashion 6 shots to total 20 damage (each doing 3.333333333333333 which when *6 = 20 even). Unlike the Hunchback's Tomodzuru cannon's cassette (magazine) fed burst fire, the HBK IIC's weapon is chain-fed and never stops firing. The difference here is that the Devastator UAC/20 has to spread its fire over the time of MWO's AC/20's normal recycle time. This means it has to start a new firing cycle within 4 seconds. This means 1 shot every 0.67 seconds. (Fires at 0 seconds, 0.67, 1.33, 2, 2.67, and finally the 6th shot at 3.33 seconds leaving it with 0.67 seconds cooldown to start the new cycle). In ultra mode, the firing rate doubles to squeeze in 12 shots within that same time frame.
Some other random AC/20 comparisons.
Atlas's 100mm Death Giver AC/20 is 15 shots. (Death Giver = 100mm 15 shot burst (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
King Crab's 120mm Death Giver AC/20 is 12 shots. (Death Giver = 120mm 12 shot full auto (Storms of Fate) -King Crab
Pontiac 100 is described as a multi-barrel cassette(magazine)-fed vulcan cannon (burst fire type). (Pontiac 100 = 100mm * 100 shots, magazine loaded. "Spewing a black cloud of death." "Empties its cassette within a second." (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
The list goes on. For example there are 10 shot fully automatic AC/2s which would have almost double the firing rate of MWO's MGs if they are to keep PGI's far too high DPS. And this is just touching base with the feared ACs and UACs that everyone is so terrified of. Which in MWO's implementation UACs are something horrific to be feared. If we used the lore as a basis, autocannons and MWO lasers would be really on par with one another.
In short, PGI used a very loose translation of the 'summaries' in tabletop to create our autocannons which doesn't account for anything but a simplified version of everything. Had they been created from the lore instead, we'd have far fewer "superior" weapons to worry about (and even a very good reason to run an LRM magnet like the Cauldron Born). Single shot autocannons to deal their rated damage are actually extremely rare in battletech lore. Kinda common for AC/2s but that's about it.
(On a side note, there are 44 variants of medium lasers alone, not counting clan or ER MLs. Each with different firing patterns, emitter counts, etc. Many PPC and Gauss Rifle variants. Even SRM and LRM variants. All of which vary by manufacturer and have their quirks. While we certainly can't expect so much, we could at least ask for the autocannons to be a bit closer to lasers in style to better match lore.)
rather than completely break the game like every previous incarnation of clan tech, let them balance it. PGI can't possibly make it any worse than what the original values are so anything they do to it is an improvement.
True, numbers difference by itself doesn't really solve the problem. But simply making clans balanced with IS is a problem in itself.
An ideal solution would leave clan tech superior to IS on paper, but weaker in an actual match.
The simplest way to do this would be to disallow dropping as a premade with a clan mech, but that would be widely unpopular.
Another idea is for clan mechs to have ZERO customization. Stock mechs are almost universally worse than custom ones, so that would make things more even.
If not, another idea is for clan weapons to remain just as powerful, but produce far more heat. Clan weapons are already a bit hotter than IS equivalents, and as heat is a real issue in this game increasing the heat of clan weapons could be a real downside.
Another option is for clan mechs to suffer heat penalties at anything above, say 50% heat.
Listing lots of ideas is easy. We just need something that will A:Not make clantech worse or equivalent to IS on paper and B: Make clantech equivalent to IS in an actual match.
Edit: A few more ideas:
Clan mechs can't capture points.
IS mechs get double the match rewards of clan
Clan mechs get no HUD or third person camera
Clan weapons will only fire on a single target until it dies (i.e. you can't switch targets)
Clan mechs take double damage from other clan mechs (but not from IS mechs)
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Deedsie, on 09 December 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:
