292 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Marack Drock, on 16 December 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

P.S. We also got rid of it when Clans didn't come last year meaning the invasion is a year off already.

The timeline has been dropped atm so it does not really matter any more.

However i am fighting every day to take the lore back to this game

[FireSlade]

It is not destroying lore to balance the clans. They still will be superior but they will also have more drawbacks to balance it out. Many times the creators of Battletech have said that they wished that they had implemented them differently. To top it off this is a multiplayer game not a real life situation where the IS were the under dogs caught in a fight that they could not run from. You do that and anyone that wants to be competitive or a new player that comes will need a clan mech thus killing the IS mechs and equipment. To go further PGI seems to be following lore with the lack of customizing anything but the pod space. How can you call yourself a clanner when you do not have the gut to fight without your crutches. You are a dezgra.

[CyclonerM]

FireSlade, on 16 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

You are a dezgra.

Or a "powless"...

However Marack he is quite right. I think that actually the past MW games were even worse when coming to follow lore with Clan tech..

[Void Angel]

Lore applies to this game to provide flavor and feel - this is not a LARP platform for living out our childhood MechWarrior fantasies.

[CyclonerM]

Void Angel, on 16 December 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Lore applies to this game to provide flavor and feel

Well actually in this games it barely provide them.
Also, many Clan players around here have waited to play with their favourite Clan since MechWarrior 2, just like me. What are you going to tell them?

Edited by CyclonerM, 16 December 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[FireSlade]

CyclonerM, on 16 December 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Or a "powless"...

However Marack he is quite right. I think that actually the past MW games were even worse when coming to follow lore with Clan tech..

Powless works but I was referring to his becoming a disgrace with his post so I felt dezgra more appropriate.

[Agentpony]

CyclonerM, on 16 December 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

...
Also, many Clan players around here have waited to play with their favourite Clan since MechWarrior 2, just like me. What are you going to tell them?

That shuffling numbers around, creating new mechlab rules, introducing a replaceable non-person like the Battlemaster past its timeline has no actual influence on lore?

Marack Drock, on 16 December 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well we are already destroying the Lore as it is by nerfing Clans and PGI won't be implementing Zellbrigen for sure. ...

This will never work in a PvP setting, unless the rewards are heavily shifted towards upholding Zellbrigen. Which is, by the way, an insanely ridiculous way to fight that didnt even find unanimous support within the Clans themselves.

Edited by Agentpony, 16 December 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[pbiggz]

Marack Drock, on 16 December 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well we are already destroying the Lore as it is by nerfing Clans and PGI won't be implementing Zellbrigen for sure. So while we are at it lets just take out Lore. Battlemaster was added and by Lore it was out of production by the 29th century. We are destroying Lore with every year. Since Lore is disappearing anyways lets just take it out. Especially since community warfare is coming out that means we can conquer any planet even if it contradicts lore. So how about we just take it out and be done with it.

P.S. We also got rid of it when Clans didn't come last year meaning the invasion is a year off already.

This is a game where balance is absolutely paramount to it's success. Since there is no way to balance the clans as is, they must be nerfed. Dont deliberately act dense. I have shot down these arguments time and again. You know my stance already, and you know why you're wrong.

[GetinmyBellah]

Excuse this long and tedious rant that's probably hard to read through. I'm certainly not the best in the grammar skills department, but enough is enough and I've decided to say what I feel here and now, then move on.

Talking about timelines within the same sentence as MWO is blasphemous nowadays, not to mention the Battle-Tech Universe lore which has been spat and stepped upon. I become more and more disheartened with MWO, which was once a game that held so much promise. So very much promise! However, nowadays I'm even seeing the most die hard MWO fans moving on to a different game(s), along with their hard earned dollars. I can't blame them, nor can I blame the OP who sounds fed up also.

I received refunds for the Overlord and Sabre packages a few months back. I truly wanted to continually support this game in which I've already invested over $500 into. However, I grew tired of the so called promises paired with the fact this game has been stuck with its wheels spinning for far too long now. The fact we've continually been strung long with no real changes to this game **** me off, to say the least. And by real changes I mean releasing truly viable content on a semi-regular basis instead of the continuous MC grabs via Hero, Champion Mechs and the likes. I realize they have to create revenue through a F2P model and that much is a given. Yet I see a lot of other small development teams release much more content on a regular basis who offer so much more meaningful material that requires less money! These aforementioned developer's are just as sophisticated in their technology and appearances, if not more so, with DX11, tessellation, true optimization of the games engine & netcode -- just to name a few.

I have witnessed mediocre balance changes that are few and far between. I've seen more releases than I care to count of modules, paint jobs, ornaments, revisions to existing mechs so the weapons look 'prettier' when you make changes to them in the mech lab. I've witnessed more of the aforementioned {Scrap} released than anything. I shouldn't say {Scrap}, because it's all cool and relevant, well at least some of it, to a degree. Yet none of this "{Scrap}" holds enough merit to keep this game moving forward on the path it should have been riding along. How long have we heard about Clan Wars and UI v2. You know, dumb stuff like CW and UIv2... I keep coming back hoping to see more and while some much needed changes have been made. I still don't see nearly enough as I feel I should. Now they're asking $500 for a gold Mech that won't be released for another 6+ months!?! At this point in time I feel the entire dev team acquired a taste for crack and need to support their habits, because all of this seems so very, very pointless. This game held so much potential and I feel all the time and money invested is simply a waste. At one point I felt it was still worth the enjoyment I had received to date, but not anymore. I feel ashamed to have ever spent a dime, let long having participated in the beta. Because honestly, I had more fun with my clan during the beta than I ever have during release.

These are the thoughts of a nearly drunk old man that's been playing since 1994 or '95 in Multi-Player Battle-Tech, then Solaris. Since then I've owned and thoroughly played and enjoyed the hell out of every title that's been released since.
/endrant

Regardless ::|:: Happy Hunting Mech Warrior's <S>

[The Boneshaman]

I have never been a fan of BT lore so it dose not bother me one bit that they have thrown out lore. i just hope i will beable to put a clan ER PPC or Lasers on my IS mechs the only mechs i want from clans is the Mad Cat, Puma, Daishi and Masakari. i do wish they would have waited longer to pull out the Klans.

[Grey Black]

Agentpony, on 16 December 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

That shuffling numbers around, creating new mechlab rules, introducing a replaceable non-person like the Battlemaster past its timeline has no actual influence on lore?


This will never work in a PvP setting, unless the rewards are heavily shifted towards upholding Zellbrigen. Which is, by the way, an insanely ridiculous way to fight that didnt even find unanimous support within the Clans themselves.

I've actually advocated this for a while. This could be done in a couple ways:
1) Implementing a tagging system so people couldn't steal kills without taking a massive hit in payout (e.g. pushing R to claim a target)
2) provide bonuses for not firing on someone else's tag (e.g. a Teamkilling penalty of sorts)
3) Provide payout penalties for getting assists (e.g. you get X cbills for getting kills, but -Y because of those kills, most were assisted)

And so on. Long story short, the mechanics to balance the Clans without breaking them is there. Or we could just nerf them. That works too.

EDIT:

The Boneshaman, on 16 December 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

I have never been a fan of BT lore so it dose not bother me one bit that they have thrown out lore. i just hope i will beable to put a clan ER PPC or Lasers on my IS mechs the only mechs i want from clans is the Mad Cat, Puma, Daishi and Masakari. i do wish they would have waited longer to pull out the Klans.

.... I do not believe you are in the right forums to be discussing the Klans.

Another point though: I really hope that they PureTech everything to provide at least some flavor between the factions.

Edited by Grey Black, 16 December 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[Void Angel]

CyclonerM, on 16 December 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Well actually in this games it barely provide them.
Also, many Clan players around here have waited to play with their favourite Clan since MechWarrior 2, just like me. What are you going to tell them?

To enjoy their favorite Adjective Animal - but if their idea of "playing the Clans" is "being better than everyone else," they're out of luck. If you want to be the best, you'll have to practice like everyone else.

Also, in response to a certain rant, which was indeed long and tedious, I have to point out that "slightly altering how guns work" is not "spitting and stepping on the lore." Nor, indeed, are direct comparisons to other games whose development (allegedly) has gone according to plan as burning an indictment of PGI as the purveyors of such claims seem to believe. PGI's development hasn't gone according to plan; that's glaringly obvious - and sure, it's frustrating and reflects badly on the company. But much of the reason that development hasn't gone to plan was unforseen problems with the engine itself. It's very hard to evaluate how effective PGI should have been in addressing those, given their manpower and the nature of the problem. Comparisons with other games whose developers were able to use out-of-the-box game engines without having to modify them is invalid reasoning in this sense - you can't vaguely hand-wave at "other small development teams" in different games as some kind of meter-stick for how to deal with unforeseeable difficulties in development.

Certainly, the game has had problems in development, and some problems still remain. But I think the things that are going right outweigh the things that are going wrong - and so do you. Otherwise, no matter how much you've spent till now, you shouldn't be playing the game. If the game shows enough promise to justify your time and money, it's doing ok - if it doesn't show such promise, either you got your money's worth in fun while the fun lasted, or you wasted your cash from the start. Either way, you shouldn't be playing the game any more. If you're still playing the game, that right there is a stronger endorsement than any amount of tedious forum ranting.

PS: OP should probably actually go look at the information PGI released about their tentative plans for CW before embarrassing himself with any further erroneous opinions about it. =)

[FireSlade]

Marack Drock, on 16 December 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

I don't like changing lore. The Clans didn't call each other dezgra when they invaded in the books and conquered world after world from superior tech. So lay off or you are calling any Lore abiding Clanner, dezgra.

The fact that Zellbrigen, and all this junk will be changed or never implemented effects Lore greatly in a negative way. Zellbrigen was a key element to winning against the Clans on Tukayyid and against Clan Smoke Jaguar in Operation Bulldog. Without Zellbrigen for Clan players how can you expect a player (who doesn't know what Zellbrigen is) to react when suddenly his Smoke Jaguar Clan is wiped out because of rules that apply to the hole Clan only at one moment. Or how about all of us Clans are taken out of the Inner Sphere due to rules that don't apply except at that moment. I say either implement it or screw Lore. Community Warfare makes us able to potentially conquer Tharkad! That's not Lore at all! Lore can't apply when it isn't upheld.

In lore things were different; yes the clans had overwhelming tech and equipment but they would also give themselves a handicap by bidding for the lowest amount of forces needed to conquer a planet. Not doing what you are doing by calling for superior equipment on top of 12 vs 12 engagements with an inferior foe. Instead you demand that since you are not getting your way lets get rid or any concept of lore. The is why I mentioned you being dezgra. If instead you were coming up with other solutions to keep clan equipment the same but to balance in different ways then I may have stood with you instead of against you. Like it or not we need balance and in lore they balance the fight with less forces hence the TT battle values.

[Void Angel]

Which unfortunately don't work for this format of game.

[Garamanus]

If the Clan Mechs were introduced at the level of superiority lore suggests, no one would take Inner Sphere mechs, founders and phoenix packages would be a sham/waste.

In MWO the Clan Mechs have to be comparable to Inner Sphere mechs for playability, and I guess that there will not be much difference in the weapons either.

Roll on 17 June 2014...

Edited by Garamanus, 16 December 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

What surprises me is that Clans as announced are not actually nerfed. The weapon damage is higher than the inner sphere versions. The range is higher. The weight and size advantages are there. The only "nerf" is the inflexibility with the engine, armor, internals, and hardwired stuff. This was all there in the books, outside of factory made variants, as being limitations on Omnimechs. Where is the nerf again?

Just unlock the ability to fiddle with the armor and that would be, IMO, just about perfect. Can up-armor the under-armored and redistribute the armor on those with bad distributions.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 December 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 December 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

What surprises me is that Clans as announced are not actually nerfed. The weapon damage is higher than the inner sphere versions. The range is higher. The weight and size advantages are there. The only "nerf" is the inflexibility with the engine, armor, internals, and hardwired stuff. This was all there in the books, outside of factory made variants, as being limitations on Omnimechs. Where is the nerf again?

Just unlock the ability to fiddle with the armor and that would be, IMO, just about perfect. Can up-armor the under-armored and redistribute the armor on those with bad distributions.

The nerf should hopefully come with the changes to weapon MECHANICS, not just number tweaks.

Want to get full damage on that laser? It generates more heat either way and you have to keep it trained on a moving target the whole time.

Want to fire your LRMs point blank? Prepare to do very little damage, but still some.

Want to boat 4 SSRM 6s? Prepare to fire 12 pairs of missiles one at a time.

Also the fact that they said it was entirely possible though a last resort for the team to bring LRM tonnage UP on clan weapons indicates to me that they are willing to do what ever it takes to make it work, and that canon builds are no object. This is obviously a last resort, they'll try to do everything but this. But if it comes down to fixing clan tech, or preserving canon builds, they'll discard and modify those canon builds to fix clan tech.

This shows me that they're serious about making it work.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 16 December 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

The nerf should hopefully come with the changes to weapon MECHANICS, not just number tweaks.

Want to get full damage on that laser? It generates more heat either way and you have to keep it trained on a moving target the whole time.

Want to fire your LRMs point blank? Prepare to do very little damage, but still some.

Want to boat 4 SSRM 6s? Prepare to fire 12 pairs of missiles one at a time.

Also the fact that they said it was entirely possible though a last resort for the team to bring LRM tonnage UP on clan weapons indicates to me that they are willing to do what ever it takes to make it work, and that canon builds are no object. This is obviously a last resort, they'll try to do everything but this. But if it comes down to fixing clan tech, or preserving canon builds, they'll discard and modify those canon builds to fix clan tech.

This shows me that they're serious about making it work.

The funny thing is, aside from the tonnage increase option, I actually love their ideas. With two exceptions:

• I still think the Clan version of lasers should be a shorter duration beam. Long duration beams can be corrected for on a miss. A short duration beam will just plain miss. It rewards accuracy more this way IMO.
  
• Clan LRMs should have a flat 90m minimum range allowing counterplay and come in rippled waves of no more than 5 or 10. IE, an LRM 20 fires either 4x5 LRMs or 2x10. Either way it gives AMS equipped mechs a chance to counter the LRM fire. Maybe that is over kill. Maybe it should be one or the other.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 December 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

FireSlade, on 16 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

It is not destroying lore to balance the clans. They still will be superior but they will also have more drawbacks to balance it out.

Bolded sentence is categorically false, assuming Paul's design remains intact. They will be vastly inferior.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 December 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

The funny thing is, aside from the tonnage increase option, I actually love their ideas. With two exceptions:

• I still think the Clan version of lasers should be a shorter duration beam. Long duration beams can be corrected for on a miss. A short duration beam will just plain miss. It rewards accuracy more this way IMO.

Only problem with that is it encourages boating and pinpoint alpha damage. If you have a longer burn, less damage is dealt per second, and even if you have time to correct, you wont deal the full damage. Additionally, It will have the same heat curve as IS ER LL, but a longer burn time, meaning more heat by the end of it's firing duration.


And trust me, nobody wants to mess with tonnage and potentially break a TON of canon builds, but if that's what it takes, then do it.