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Warden Or Crusader?


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#21 CyclonerM

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:31 AM

View PostLucky Moniker, on 09 January 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Warden
i believe most of CGB is, but we aren't entirely Warden, though i know a few of the known crusaders left a bit ago.... funny how things work out

Jaroth Corbett is still there.. ^_^

#22 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:43 AM

I'm a Warden, but I do love me the Star Adders.

#23 CoffiNail

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:49 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 10 January 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

Jaroth Corbett is still there.. ^_^

Well we need someone to balance out the wardens

#24 Tuann

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:54 AM

warden :-)

#25 pbiggz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:11 AM

Another tidbit, Crusaders often harbour massive prejudices against freeborns, despite the fact that the founders they worship, and the sources of the 800 blood names are all freeborn.

Never mind the health implications of the artificially hamstringing genetic diversity (the very same weaknesses the society used against the clans in the wars of reaving) it simply does not make sense. Sure you have filtered your warriors down to the best stock you have, but you have also entirely eliminated any chance of improvement your clan has, and by discriminating against freeborn, you are indirectly slandering the name of the great father and the founder himself!

#26 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:16 AM

Warden

#27 CyclonerM

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:55 PM

Do not fear, Crusaders, have faith in Jaroth Corbett. I still his extremely long post with novels, sourcebooks and Remembrance quotes. And i cannot wait to show how he and the Crusaders are wrong.

[RP /off]
I've got my own little theory. Basically, in real life we may well be all from the Inner Sphere since our society and thinking are far more similar to the FedCom or FWL than the Clans. Even the most passionated roleplayers still have a Inner Sphere mind. It's like we are all spheroids trying to imitate Clansmen.

We see the Inner Sphere as more similar to our reality and thus not having *too many* prejudices about it and the greedy Houses. Not as many as a rigid-minded Crusader.

If we see the Sphere as our home, should we want to see it conquered by invaders? No. I thik this is the main reason of so many Wardens claiming the invasion is wrong. Phelan Kell couldn't have been a Crusader, could him? :ph34r:

[RP ON]

Edited by CyclonerM, 10 January 2014 - 02:55 PM.


#28 Heldar1

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:08 PM

Crusader.

The IS cannot rule themselves anyway.

Edited by Lagoth, 11 January 2014 - 05:12 PM.


#29 pbiggz

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 07:28 PM

View PostLagoth, on 11 January 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Crusader.

The IS cannot rule themselves anyway.


http://www.sarna.net...i/Brett_Andrews

The clan's can barely rule themselves! What gives you the moral authority to claim you can rule the inner sphere!?

#30 Silence Jin Mang

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 12:39 AM

Crusader.

The reasoning, its what Kerensky told us must be done, and the state of the un-honorable Inner Sphere Scum further proves it. Wastefully sending (freebirths though they are) men and women in combat that is just as wasteful. Along with the pathetic political animals that run the whole show are corrupt down to the core and deserve to be purged. We must teach them our ways, and being peaceful about it will not work. We must show them what discipline and honor will do for them, and what better way than by crushing them. Therefore I believe we must crush the Inner Sphere and bring its flock of citizens to the true ways of Kerensky. I might be outnumbered, but I will not back down from my position. Talk was done back before the Great Journey to where we live are today. If Kerensky could not have convinced them then, then how will we be able to now, with the added fact their bad habits have only festered and grown. They must be purged of these faults with fire and blood.

On a non-RPing point. I don't think that we all have Inner Sphere mentalities despite it being very much like the real world. I follow a very clan centric lifestyle, granted without the thought of purging hundreds of people in Kerensky`s name, but I do always challenge myself to be better than others. I also like to prove myself to show that I`m better. I also find the caste system preferable, instead of the current system we are in now. We live in a caste system just its hidden under a fog of the idea of freedom. Everyone really sits in one caste their whole lives and rarely do we see them trying to get out. Now I don't think the caste system is on tiers of who`s better, but we still divide ourselves into these castes. So why not just consider it what it is? Idk, that's a talk not meant for these forums.

Anyways, I do not think you can prove the Crusader plans the incorrect way. They are far superior and are proven by history. The pentagon worlds and their purging is a perfect example. We must do this to redeem those that are innocent from the corruption and filth that most have fallen to. There is no other way, history only goes t prove me right.

Edited by Silence Jin Mang, 12 January 2014 - 01:09 AM.


#31 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:46 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure. I am on the fence. Let me get back to you. ^_^

#32 Arnold J Rimmer

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 05:02 AM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 12 January 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure. I am on the fence. Let me get back to you. ^_^

How anti-climactic. Tease.

#33 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 05:04 AM

The people who know me get it.

#34 CyclonerM

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:46 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 12 January 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure. I am on the fence. Let me get back to you. :D

Shall i try to convince you, quiaff? ^_^

I will start quoting two of the most famous speechs by Alexander Kerensky.

First, the Hidden Hope doctrine.

Spoiler

At first, it might seem to support the Crusader point of view. Wrong. Let us analyze it a bit.

Quote

Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind.

It should be contextualized. To give courage to the Star League-in-exile forces and prevent further rebellions, the General pointed out that the exiles could not return in the Sphere but should instad keep enduring the voyage into the unknown because they were different from the Houses which only wanted power at their neighbours' expense.

This applies even more, however, to the Clans. They have a totally different society,lore and way of thinking. They cannot just return invading and expect to rule without big troubles a so bigger population, like that of the Inner Sphere, which sees Clansmen as alien. Thinking of being able to rule the Sphere is folly. Many times in history a small minority dominating over a big majority led to revolts and unrest. Think of it on Sphere-scale.

Quote

The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth.

We have seen how return is impossible. In the Inner Sphere, the Great Houses started indeed a series of destructive wars. He predicted that only time could burn away the hate and the greed. Sure, as long as there are people like Katherine Steiner or Hanse Davion, the fighting would not stop. However, we see there leaders in the Inner Sphere who do not love war (Thomas Marik) and leaders willing to put aside centuries of hatred between their nations to help each other in a moment of danger for both of them and can even become friends (Victor Davion and Hohiro Kurita).

The seeds of a better Inner Sphere lie in this new generation of leaders. And ironically, the Clan invasion was what revealed this truth. The invasion only succeeded in uniting the Successor States in a (fragile) alliance., something not seen since after Kerensky's Exodus.

Sure, people like Katherine and Sun-tzu Liao are not likely to put aside their hunger for power and hatred , but i see steps in the right direction. Maybe, mankind IS stepping back from the abyss, quoting another famous phrase by the Great Father. But that will come later.

Quote

We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.

The first sentence is clear enough. As far as i know, it is not the main phrase used as arguments by the Wardens and this i do not understand.
Alexander Kerensky knows he must give the troops a hope, a goal to give them the strenght to keep travelling in unknown space. He said someday they will return. Sure, he talks about BattleMechs and fighters, but i assume these words should not be read to the letter, but only as a means to underline the moral characters their children's children will supposedly have when they return. And here comes the interesting part.
"Ridding ourselves of the bad and conserving the good": how can you say you have ridden yourself of the bad of the Star League when you want to destroy the very Inner Sphere you were supposed to ward? What good have you conserved then? You have become no better than the greedy Great Houses.

Now, my favourite one - the Voice of Kerensky. I assume you all know what it is so i will not waste time explaining it.
Spoiler

Quote


I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.

This shall destroy every counter-argument the Crusaders might throw us.
"We love it too much to see it destroyed. " neither by itself, NOR by us.
"I fear that my force would do incalculabe, possibly irreparable harm to our society".If you want to use the might of the Clans to strike at the Inner Sphere , you are doing it wrong. You are clearly defying Kerensky's words and mocking his dream. You cannot call yourself a children of Kerensky and then twist his words for your thirst of blood.
"We are sworn to defend the Star League and his subjects, not to destroy it". You may argue the Star League was no more, taken down by the Successor States. True, but "his subjects" includes all the people of the Inner Sphere. Our sacred mission is to defend them , not destroying their worlds, killing them or taking them as our prisoners imposing them our way of life with the presunction of "liberating" them. This is why the razing of Edo by the Smoke Jaguars is a most grave act.

Quote

Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.
Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

Poor Kerensky, for he having led his armada far away from their homes only to place it in the hands of corrupted warriors and later bloodthirsty Crusader. Especially the latter, since they are essentially do what Keresnky tried to prevent with his very Exodus: using the Star League's force not for defense but for conquest. This confirms you Crusaders are no better than any "Great" House.

Quote

Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.
this is the statement more often quoted by the Wardens, and for a good reason. Serve, protect & guide is not conquer, enslave and rule.
Jaroth Corbett, with his usually wisdom, will tell me it is not a pro-Warden argument because it says "Should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss". He would say "4 succession wars plus Kentares, Mankind is bombing itself at the Stone Age".
True, but as i already said earlier, the new generation of leaders show how they can cooperate despite centuries of war and hatred. They cooperated on Outreach and helped each other, with different degrees of willingness, to prepare for the renewed Clan invasion. I have hopes for the seeds of a new Inner Sphere, led by wiser leaders. Our very invasion showed that mankind is taking some slow, weak steps back from the abyss. Slow and weak, sure, and it is likely to fall, but only to rise again, as long as young leaders decide they can change things.
Sure, for the people of the Successor States, especially those on the borders, may be hard to accept a truce or even an alliance with the nation they have fought for so many years, but if the change starts from a good and carismatic leader, slowly it will spread. Everyone wants peace in the Inner Sphere, after all.

To further counter your argument, Jaroth, i tell you: let us say, hypotetically , that mankind is not stepping back from the abyss.
Let us analyze the statement again:

Quote

Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars

Perhaps. One day. Considering the timing of the Voice of Kerensky (it will reach the Inner Sphere by 3800 if Sarna stands correct) he was not eager to see his warriors return. Moreover, reading this phrase i assume that "our children's children" will return only if mankinds steps back from the brink of the abyss. If it is not the case, they shall not return at all.

"The honor of the Warden way, like a pyre in the blackness of space has guided us to our home on Terra. Kerensky told us of this Eden with the promise of the Remembrace. We will protect it to our deaths.."

EDIT: wow, it took an hour or so to write all this stuff. Hope you enjoy. If i could make things at school with such passion.. :blink:

Edited by CyclonerM, 13 January 2014 - 01:49 PM.


#35 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:31 PM

A valiant attempt but flawed from the very beginning. The task set upon return & "return we shall" is mentioned, is to protect but ONLY if mankind steps back from the abyss. The return is not & has never been in question, it is the action to be taken upon the return. You mention that the new generations of leaders show they can cooperate, when actually you show how they cannot.

1. Outreach occurred AFTER the Clans arrived, they had decades to work **** out & refused to. Speaking of Outreach, the IS NEVER united & by that I mean the entirety of the IS. The CC refused to align themselves with anyone & the only way the FC got the FWL to help out was to blackmail Thomas Marik with the life of his sick child. To quote Thomas,

Quote

"Then you shall have your machinery." Thomas fixed Hanse with an unforgiving stare. "I entrust my son to you because I cannot deny him a chance at life. I give you your war toys because it is true that your son deserves the chance you are giving to mine. Do not imagine, though, that this makes us friends or allies. I will not forget—I cannot let myself forget—that you are the devil incarnate."


2. The Second "Star League" fell apart proving it was a sham. An ad hoc measure designed to solve a particular problem is not, was not & could never be a true representation of the SLDF.

I have made my case numerous times over. The only logical path a Clansman who claims to follow Kerensky can take is that of a Crusader because the lore says so. :rolleyes: Stop fighting it Cycloner.

P.S. Remind me, which IS leader called for the meeting on Outreach to unite the IS? :D

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 January 2014 - 02:46 PM.


#36 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

A valiant attempt but flawed from the very beginning. The task set upon return & "return we shall" is mentioned, is to protect but ONLY if mankind steps back from the abyss. The return is not & has never been in question, it is the action to be taken upon the return. You mention that the new generations of leaders show they can cooperate, when actually you show how they cannot.

1. Outreach occurred AFTER the Clans arrived, they had decades to work **** out & refused to. Speaking of Outreach, the IS NEVER united & by that I mean the entirety of the IS. The CC refused to align themselves with anyone & the only way the FC got the FWL to help out was to blackmail Thomas Marik with the life of his sick child. To quote Thomas,



2. The Second "Star League" fell apart proving it was a sham. An ad hoc measure designed to solve a particular problem is not, was not & could never be a true representation of the SLDF.

I have made my case numerous times over. The only logical path a Clansman who claims to follow Kerensky can take is that of a Crusader because the lore says so. :D Stop fighting it Cycloner.


You do make a valid point there but my question is: How can the Clans rule over the rebuilt Star League without becoming as corrupt as the Innersphere houses? If you look at many of the top levels of the Clans you already start to see this corruption festering and growing. This coupled with arrogance of the leadership prevents them from seeing that they are no better than the people that they claim to be saving by conquering them.

Edited by FireSlade, 13 January 2014 - 02:48 PM.


#37 Silence Jin Mang

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:48 PM

Where I would like to agree with you, I can not. Yes the words of the Great Kerensky say that we should go back and ward the IS and bring it back to glory, but we would be stabbed in the back. You know of the great corruption that drives the IS political and military systems. You know that they would let us in the door only to step onto a trap. You know they would find ways to rise back to power, WITH the might of our own technology, and use it against us. That can not and will not happen. Not only is the IS in a technological dark age, but The Fed Com is posed to take over most of the IS, and they will not just accept us peacefully. Let alone would we even be able to rule them. I know what our Great Father said, but he did not know what would become of the IS without his great knowledge. The history and info of the IS that your, Wolf Dragoons, have recovered prove this. Why do you ignore what your own CLAN says. The evidence only supports that this corruption will only be possible through purging the *****.

Onto another point, the Pentagon Worlds shows that the IS has no hope of redemption through time. The worlds drove themselves into a feudal system, not to different from the IS, and warred amongst themselves, very much like the IS. And what did we have to do to those barbarians? Purge them of the unclean and save those who were willing to see the way of our Great Father.

And to talk about the "Abyss" that humanity had brought itself into, it has only dragged itself deeper, (and to jump to things we cant know) and create the greatest threat of human annihilation The Jihad. But even in the current era, they kill themselves in droves over worlds and materials, instead of conserving their materials and fighting with honor. They are barbaric and corrupt. The fight without honor and skill. They spread lies of deceit and only wish to further themselves and not the greater cause. Nothing shows that they have stepped back from the Abyss, and if they are going to destroy themselves, then we
must crush those causing the corruption, through fire and blood. Metal may only become a sword through fire, molding, and cooling. Our assaults will be fire, our social enlightening the molding, and our faithful protection the cooling. This is the goal. This is what our Great Father would have wanted.

#38 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:58 PM

View PostFireSlade, on 13 January 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:


You do make a valid point there but my question is: How can the Clans rule over the rebuilt Star League without becoming as corrupt as the Innersphere houses? If you look at many of the top levels of the Clans you already start to see this corruption festering and growing. This coupled with arrogance of the leadership prevents them from seeing that they are no better than the people that they claim to be saving by conquering them.


That is a flaw that will never be fixed because of how the Clans were written. Had the Clans won, the entire framework of the IS would have changed & been molded to take a Clan shape. The corruption began right after Tukkayid. Arrogance of leadership has been tempered with humility. Both of the pure Crusader Clans from the Big Four got tastes; the Jaguars got their own at Wolcott & the Falcons on Twycross.

#39 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:37 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:


That is a flaw that will never be fixed because of how the Clans were written. Had the Clans won, the entire framework of the IS would have changed & been molded to take a Clan shape. The corruption began right after Tukkayid. Arrogance of leadership has been tempered with humility. Both of the pure Crusader Clans from the Big Four got tastes; the Jaguars got their own at Wolcott & the Falcons on Twycross.

I think that it is a flaw that can never be fixed because of human nature. Meaning that the corruption may have been there long before the clans even existed. Nicholas Kerensky curbed the corruption back when he went on a second exodus to create the Clans. This nullified their loyalties to any of the houses and created new loyalties. The corruption never died though, the unspoken Clan is proof of this. While their was a few honorable Khans that ruled their Clan the best that they could without breaking their code of honor, but this only lasted while they were alive and the power hungry scrambled and manipulated to reach the ranks of the Khan and IlKhan. Thus dooming any Clan that managed to conquer Terra and restore the Star League.

#40 Silence Jin Mang

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

I don't think corruption existed in the clans, as the fact that they all honored the rules of Zell and rarely did anything for themselves. Without the introduction of actual IS politics after the Battle of Tukkayid, the clans wouldn't have had been shamed like they did, and brood and start thinking like the IS. BUT, and this is a big BUT, we wouldn't know about this at all during this time. Just sayin.





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