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Warden Or Crusader?


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#41 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:58 PM

View PostSilence Jin Mang, on 13 January 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

I don't think corruption existed in the clans, as the fact that they all honored the rules of Zell and rarely did anything for themselves. Without the introduction of actual IS politics after the Battle of Tukkayid, the clans wouldn't have had been shamed like they did, and brood and start thinking like the IS. BUT, and this is a big BUT, we wouldn't know about this at all during this time. Just sayin.


There were some shady things going on with Vlad Ward, Ter Roshak, and the Smoke Jaguars around this time that I can think of with others happening before and after. One big one happening behind the scenes in the science caste was the mixing of Aidan Pryde's genetics on Huntress after his death. For the most part the people of the Clans followed the laws and fought with honor but you could see people trying to bend the rules for personal or Clan gain.

#42 Silence Jin Mang

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:03 PM

But the one Clan that did this, and curse them for even question Kerensky`s word, was crushed and annihilated to the last. We do not accept the corrupt and unjust, we purge them. As for those rumors, they are not out of corruption, but out of trying to better the clans as a whole. To say that the leadership of the Clans is corrupt without proper evidence is to invite annihilation. You tread a fine line, watch what you say next, for I may not be the only one you **** off.

On a non-RP note, what you say does hold water, but its got holes in it, and if it has holes than its not conclusive.

#43 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

View PostFireSlade, on 13 January 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:


I think that it is a flaw that can never be fixed because of human nature. Meaning that the corruption may have been there long before the clans even existed. Nicholas Kerensky curbed the corruption back when he went on a second exodus to create the Clans. This nullified their loyalties to any of the houses and created new loyalties. The corruption never died though, the unspoken Clan is proof of this. While their was a few honorable Khans that ruled their Clan the best that they could without breaking their code of honor, but this only lasted while they were alive and the power hungry scrambled and manipulated to reach the ranks of the Khan and IlKhan. Thus dooming any Clan that managed to conquer Terra and restore the Star League.



I disagree. The proof is there. The biggest blow the IS ever hit the Clans was not on the battlefield but off of it. Even A. Focht pointed it out to Ulric.

Quote

"Yours is not an easy lot, Ulric. You lead a people who are bred for war. They will not take defeat lightly."


The Truce is where the Clans began to slide down that slippery slope. The Red Corsair incident, honorable Clansmen willingly pretending to be pirates just to attempt to repudiate the Truce added to engineered claim of ********, to have Ulric removed as ilKhan, (the only one charge that Ulric could not veto or sidestep mind you) to do what again? Oh I remember, repudiate the truce!

Vlad said it perfectly:


Quote


Bjorn Jorgensson of the Ghost Bears stood and removed his helmet. "It strikes me, Khan Vlad, that your assessment of Prince Davion's invitation is wrong. He has not asked us to abandon who we are."

"No, not yet, but that will come." Vlad shook his head. "These people have a world where combats are staged for entertainment"

Victor smiled. "And the champion fighter on that world is the one who took you out of the fight. You can't denigrate the quality of the Solaris warriors like that."

"Immaterial, Victor, and beside my point." Vlad opened his arms to the other Khans. "These are a people who use as spectacle contests where people die, not to prove who is worthy of passing their genetic potential on, but for money. They sell soap and crackers, sugar-water and cosmetics. They mock what we do, they mock that which defines us, and they will turn us into clowns.

''You all know the history of the Inner Sphere, especially since the Exodus of the great Kerensky. The Wolf Dragoons were sent to them to determine what sort of people they were, and how were they employed? As mercenaries. They fought and shed their blood as proxies for their employers' people, and this will be our fate. Our technology will be sold to the highest bidder, our culture will become rootstock for trends. Clans will be franchised, merchandise will be sold, and our traditions will be tarnished."

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 January 2014 - 04:07 PM.


#44 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:20 PM

View PostSilence Jin Mang, on 13 January 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

But the one Clan that did this, and curse them for even question Kerensky`s word, was crushed and annihilated to the last. We do not accept the corrupt and unjust, we purge them. As for those rumors, they are not out of corruption, but out of trying to better the clans as a whole. To say that the leadership of the Clans is corrupt without proper evidence is to invite annihilation. You tread a fine line, watch what you say next, for I may not be the only one you **** off.

On a non-RP note, what you say does hold water, but its got holes in it, and if it has holes than its not conclusive.


On the same non-RP note the hole are mostly because of the different authors that wrote the books, that is where I get most of my lore, so you are right in saying that it is not conclusive and that most of the dishonorable deeds were done to better their Clan with Ter Roshak's giving Aidan a second chance being one of the most obvious.

On a RP note: I stand behind my words and the belief that we of the Clans were not meant to rule but instead watch. That is also not to say that I do not believe in conquering the Innersphere but that we should wait until we know that the rulers are a threat to the people. If it ever came to this then we would need to step in and find a new leader to rule the Star League.

#45 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:32 PM

That makes no sense. The rulers were already a threat to the people. You seem to forget that in the IS, anyone is fair game when it comes to war. There is no rule where only the warriors fight, get injured and/or killed. Why should a baker have to worry about getting shot by a mech or have an artillery strike destroy his home? Or a butcher, or a teacher or a fisherman etc.? The IS put together the Ares Convention then disregarded it & **** on it.

When two Clans fight, for whatever reason it may be, it is well clear of any civilians.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 January 2014 - 04:32 PM.


#46 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:36 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:


I disagree. The proof is there. The biggest blow the IS ever hit the Clans was not on the battlefield but off of it. Even A. Focht pointed it out to Ulric.



The Truce is where the Clans began to slide down that slippery slope. The Red Corsair incident, honorable Clansmen willingly pretending to be pirates just to attempt to repudiate the Truce added to engineered claim of ********, to have Ulric removed as ilKhan, (the only one charge that Ulric could not veto or sidestep mind you) to do what again? Oh I remember, repudiate the truce!

Vlad said it perfectly:


That slippery slope was unavoidable. If you take a man/woman then train the from birth to fight without adding in any other skills, and then because of a truce tell them that they can never fight and that their life is meaning less, they will be lost. A lost soul has no honor or cares other than what brings them meaning. For them it was breaking a truce just so that they could fight once more. You are right in your claim that this was the biggest blow to the Clans that the Innersphere could ever attain; even more than the annihilation of Clan Smoke Jaguar. This unfortunately is the consequence of the arrogance of the leadership and the warriors that fought that battle. Where I disagree with you and Vlad Ward is that the Clans would lose themselves. Life, honor, and meaning is what the leaders and the people make of it. If the Clans let the Innersphere corrupt their ways then it will happen but if they stay true to their beliefs then they will never lose them.

#47 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:49 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

That makes no sense. The rulers were already a threat to the people. You seem to forget that in the IS, anyone is fair game when it comes to war. There is no rule where only the warriors fight, get injured and/or killed. Why should a baker have to worry about getting shot by a mech or have an artillery strike destroy his home? Or a butcher, or a teacher or a fisherman etc.? The IS put together the Ares Convention then disregarded it & **** on it.

When two Clans fight, for whatever reason it may be, it is well clear of any civilians.

You are forgetting that at the time of the invasion that the Clans knew very little of the Innersphere. Tukkyid was proof of this along with the Smoke Jaguar annihilation. Knowing what we know I agree with you in the sense that the Houses minus a few individuals did not care about the well being of their people and thus should be removed from power. But because of their arrogance and not understanding their enemies better all but 2 Clans that fought Tukkyid lost with only Clan Wolf achieving all of their objectives, forcing them to a truce. This truce is what kept the Clans from removing the houses from power and restoring the Star League; so we will never know how it would have turned out. Just because we conquer the Innersphere does not mean that we are able to rule it. I still stand by the belief that we should watch over it as the Great Father and Father of the Clans once did.

#48 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:02 PM

View PostFireSlade, on 13 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:


That slippery slope was unavoidable. If you take a man/woman then train the from birth to fight without adding in any other skills, and then because of a truce tell them that they can never fight and that their life is meaning less, they will be lost. A lost soul has no honor or cares other than what brings them meaning. For them it was breaking a truce just so that they could fight once more. You are right in your claim that this was the biggest blow to the Clans that the Innersphere could ever attain; even more than the annihilation of Clan Smoke Jaguar. This unfortunately is the consequence of the arrogance of the leadership and the warriors that fought that battle. Where I disagree with you and Vlad Ward is that the Clans would lose themselves. Life, honor, and meaning is what the leaders and the people make of it. If the Clans let the Innersphere corrupt their ways then it will happen but if they stay true to their beliefs then they will never lose them.



Not really. If the Clans were written to win we would not be having this discussion but then there would be nowhere for the story `to go. What you are in fact saying is that the reverse is also true. Had the Clans won & now had control of Terra, the writing would be on the wall. If the Clans won the IS way of life would be over. No matter who you were or who your parents were, you would be put into a specific caste & assigned to do specific duties. So their life is now meaningless. In which case as you say,

Quote

their life is meaning less, they will be lost. A lost soul has no honor or cares other than what brings them meaning.


#49 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:06 PM

View PostFireSlade, on 13 January 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

You are forgetting that at the time of the invasion that the Clans knew very little of the Innersphere. Tukkyid was proof of this along with the Smoke Jaguar annihilation. Knowing what we know I agree with you in the sense that the Houses minus a few individuals did not care about the well being of their people and thus should be removed from power. But because of their arrogance and not understanding their enemies better all but 2 Clans that fought Tukkyid lost with only Clan Wolf achieving all of their objectives, forcing them to a truce. This truce is what kept the Clans from removing the houses from power and restoring the Star League; so we will never know how it would have turned out. Just because we conquer the Innersphere does not mean that we are able to rule it. I still stand by the belief that we should watch over it as the Great Father and Father of the Clans once did.


Actually they knew quite a bit. Tukkayid was not proof of this. The Great Houses did not even know the scope of the Com Guards. Tukkayid was simply an exceptional leader using good strategy & tactics & having his troops fight together as opposed to the Clans who chose to work as separate units.

#50 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:24 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:



Not really. If the Clans were written to win we would not be having this discussion but then there would be nowhere for the story `to go. What you are in fact saying is that the reverse is also true. Had the Clans won & now had control of Terra, the writing would be on the wall. If the Clans won the IS way of life would be over. No matter who you were or who your parents were, you would be put into a specific caste & assigned to do specific duties. So their life is now meaningless. In which case as you say,


Even if the Clans had won there still would be a story since their was still a story to tell with the truce. As for the Innersphere way of life continuing on, that would depend on which Clan won. If it was a Crusader Clan then they would rule and force their ways on the people with some small groups opposing this. If one of the Warden Clans won then they might appoint a trusted and honorable leader to rule the Star League. So the Innersphere would not have changed much.

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:


Actually they knew quite a bit. Tukkayid was not proof of this. The Great Houses did not even know the scope of the Com Guards. Tukkayid was simply an exceptional leader using good strategy & tactics & having his troops fight together as opposed to the Clans who chose to work as separate units.


The leadership planned for a quick and decisive victory based on how they fought wars with other Clans. The Com Guards used this and the rivalries between each Clan to win. Their arrogance was their downfall with this. If the Clans knew more about the Innersphere they would have expected them to fight with hit and run tactics, cutting off their supply lines, and whittling them down through attrition. If the Clans had adjusted their tactics and expected that the warriors of the Innersphere would not fight a straight up fight, that they knew would cost them, then they would have won.

#51 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Quote

Even if the Clans had won there still would be a story since their was still a story to tell with the truce. As for the Innersphere way of life continuing on, that would depend on which Clan won. If it was a Crusader Clan then they would rule and force their ways on the people with some small groups opposing this. If one of the Warden Clans won then they might appoint a trusted and honorable leader to rule the Star League. So the Innersphere would not have changed much.


No. It would be game over. The only way to continue was to have the Clans lose.


Quote

The leadership planned for a quick and decisive victory based on how they fought wars with other Clans. The Com Guards used this and the rivalries between each Clan to win. Their arrogance was their downfall with this. If the Clans knew more about the Innersphere they would have expected them to fight with hit and run tactics, cutting off their supply lines, and whittling them down through attrition. If the Clans had adjusted their tactics and expected that the warriors of the Innersphere would not fight a straight up fight, that they knew would cost them, then they would have won.


This had nothing to do with lack of knowledge of the IS. They were fighting them since 3050. This was another issue.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Even A.Focht admitted this to Ulric. Now just imagine with the tactics they used, the deception, the tactics & strategies, Focht still said if the Clans had just worked together, they would have won.


Quote

Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"

The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."


Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 3 - Lost Destiny

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 January 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#52 FireSlade

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

No. It would be game over. The only way to continue was to have the Clans lose.

The story is what the author makes of it. Win or loss, there is always a story. Personally I think that it would have been more interesting if they had won and the war was allowed to continue.

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 13 January 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

This had nothing to do with lack of knowledge of the IS. They were fighting them since 3050. This was another issue.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Even A.Focht admitted this to Ulric. Now just imagine with the tactics they used, the deception, the tactics & strategies, Focht still said if the Clans had just worked together, they would have won.




Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 3 - Lost Destiny


You got me there, but it still shows the level of arrogance that each Khan had and that Ulric Kerensky used that against them.

But this is getting off topic and I am not saying that your belief in the Crusaders is wrong. I just wanted to know more about your point of view and how that they were going to curb the corruption that usually ends up corrupting anyone in power.

#53 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 07:00 AM

This is what i had in mind creating the thread! Keep the discussion running as long as we are civil and polite as a true Clan warrior would be (if you really disagree just draw a circle in the sand behind your house and invite him to prove his rightness :( )

A valiant attempt but flawed from the very beginning. The task set upon return & "return we shall" is mentioned, is to protect but ONLY if mankind steps back from the abyss. The return is not & has never been in question, it is the action to be taken upon the return. You mention that the new generations of leaders show they can cooperate, when actually you show how they cannot.

If by "never in question" you refer to the General Order 137, i told you that it has to be contextualized. The promise of return was meant to give the Exiles trust in the future and in the General. In the Voice of Kerensky he told us what was the reason behind the Exodus: prevent the destruction of the Sphere. Such message was meant to arrive much later in the Inner Sphere, setting a time window for the return he expected. He would never have agreed to return after only three centuries.

1. Outreach occurred AFTER the Clans arrived, they had decades to work **** out & refused to. Speaking of Outreach, the IS NEVER united & by that I mean the entirety of the IS. The CC refused to align themselves with anyone & the only way the FC got the FWL to help out was to blackmail Thomas Marik with the life of his sick child. To quote Thomas,

Every big change is sparked by an important event.

Thomas Marik did not join such alliance but at least did not represent a threat to the peace of the Inner Sphere. See also Knights of the Inner Sphere.

The change was there..


2. The Second "Star League" fell apart proving it was a sham. An ad hoc measure designed to solve a particular problem is not, was not & could never be a true representation of the SLDF.

True enough, but i see it as a good sign if sworn enemies have allied themselves to face a common threat, recognizing the wisdom of it. It created a precedent and no one can say it will never happen again.

I have made my case numerous times over. The only logical path a Clansman who claims to follow Kerensky can take is that of a Crusader because the lore says so. file:///E:UsersMAppDataLocalTempmsohtmlclip11clip_image002.gif Stop fighting it Cycloner.
Neg, trothkin. Would a true warrior refrain from fighting for what he holds as true? file:///E:UsersMAppDataLocalTempmsohtmlclip11clip_image004.gif

P.S. Remind me, which IS leader called for the meeting on Outreach to unite the IS? file:///E:UsersMAppDataLocalTempmsohtmlclip11clip_image004.gif

Read my comment before about an important event needed to spark a change.

You do make a valid point there but my question is: How can the Clans rule over the rebuilt Star League without becoming as corrupt as the Innersphere houses? If you look at many of the top levels of the Clans you already start to see this corruption festering and growing. This coupled with arrogance of the leadership prevents them from seeing that they are no better than the people that they claim to be saving by conquering them.

Seyla.

Where I would like to agree with you, I can not. Yes the words of the Great Kerensky say that we should go back and ward the IS and bring it back to glory, but we would be stabbed in the back. You know of the great corruption that drives the IS political and military systems. You know that they would let us in the door only to step onto a trap. You know they would find ways to rise back to power, WITH the might of our own technology, and use it against us. That can not and will not happen. Not only is the IS in a technological dark age, but The Fed Com is posed to take over most of the IS, and they will not just accept us peacefully. Let alone would we even be able to rule them. I know what our Great Father said, but he did not know what would become of the IS without his great knowledge. The history and info of the IS that your, Wolf Dragoons, have recovered prove this. Why do you ignore what your own CLAN says. The evidence only supports that this corruption will only be possible through purging the *****.

Is this not actually reinforcing my point? Shall we live apart and not get corrupted by the Inner Sphere?


But even in the current era, they kill themselves in droves over worlds and materials, instead of conserving their materials and fighting with honor.


They do not need to. From the very beginning humans have fought wars without honor.

then we
must crush those causing the corruption, through fire and blood. Metal may only become a sword through fire, molding, and cooling. Our assaults will be fire, our social enlightening the molding, and our faithful protection the cooling. This is the goal. This is what our Great Father would have wanted.

I would say our Great Father's words contradict you ;)

That is a flaw that will never be fixed because of how the Clans were written. Had the Clans won, the entire framework of the IS would have changed & been molded to take a Clan shape. The corruption began right after Tukkayid. Arrogance of leadership has been tempered with humility. Both of the pure Crusader Clans from the Big Four got tastes; the Jaguars got their own at Wolcott & the Falcons on Twycross.

Not true.
If the Clans had won on Tukayyid, ComStar would never have handed Terra to them. Even if they did, what would the Clans have accomplished? We want it for its symbolic value as cradle of mankind and former seat of the Star League. From a military point of view it is just another planet, furthermore very far from any line of supply if taken winning the proxy battle on Tukayyid.

IS forces could just have attacked Terra and masse. The IlClan, without possibility to reinforce it, would have lost it (and think of the loss of face!).

However, i think the little cooperation and the arrogance of most of the Khans told us we (at least most of the Clans) are not ready to conquer the Inner Sphere, let alone rule it.

Rebellions and uprisings would still be common even if the Clans managed to take over the whole Sphere. It would not be the end at all. The Clans' resources are limited and not enough even to defeat ALL the FedCom forces.
That makes no sense. The rulers were already a threat to the people. You seem to forget that in the IS, anyone is fair game when it comes to war. There is no rule where only the warriors fight, get injured and/or killed. Why should a baker have to worry about getting shot by a mech or have an artillery strike destroy his home? Or a butcher, or a teacher or a fisherman etc.? The IS put together the Ares Convention then disregarded it & **** on it.

When two Clans fight, for whatever reason it may be, it is well clear of any civilians.

True, but we cannot presume we can or should change someone else's way of life. It cannot end well. If a dispotic Clan conquests a planet, i am sure even a baker or fisherman would try to do something to hurt a bit the invaders. Unrest spread over thousand of light years is not ruling but pretending to be ruling.

Maybe, however, things might have not been so bad if the Wolf Clan had won the race to Earth, as it was going to and had become IlClan putting Ulrick Kerensky in the place of IlKhan for life. He was a leader who sought to understand the Inner Sphere and not be blinded by prejudice.

EDIT: the quote tags are giving me troubles, will edit later.

Edited by CyclonerM, 14 January 2014 - 07:03 AM.


#54 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:11 PM

You probably need to upload the pics to an image host like photobucket or imageshack then link them. I use photobucket myself.

The CC & the FWL makes any argument you could possibly fathom, irrelevant.

The CC had no invaders to repulse & could not give two ***** about the other Successor States. You cannot have unity when even with a common enemy, one of you goes, "Well they haven't attacked me so it's not my problem. Good luck with that. Deuces."

Quote

Romano pulled herself erect. "So this is it, then? You all unite against me! Very well. I shall deal with the Clans when they set foot in my realm, and not before." With that, she turned on her heel and stalked from the room. Stunned, the rest of her entourage followed slowly. Kai noticed Isis Marik watching Sun-Tzu intently, and he saw his cousin nod to her as he walked past.


The FWL is a even worse problem. You cannot have unity through blackmail. "Help us or your child dies". That could NEVER be the foundation for unity, in any way, shape or form. Do you even realize what happened there? The F in FWL stands for FREE. As Thomas explained to Hanse, they are not like the other SS where at the end of the day one man has the final say.

Quote

Theodore Kurita gave Marik a withering stare. "Captain-General, if we do not get the field modification kits, it is you who carve our epitaphs. If we do have them, we can throw the Clans back."

Thomas raised his hands. "Kanrei, I understand the trap of circular logic, but I cannot be certain my enemies will see it the same way. My nation is a democracy, not a dictatorship. I cannot ..."


By ransoming Thomas's sick child, he now forced Thomas to act like a dictator & make a choice for the entire FWL that originally would have to be decided by multiple people.

Where is this unity you speak of?

Quote

Every big change is sparked by an important event.


As Moses told the Pharaoh, "You condemn yourself with your own lips."

Big event you say? How about one of the most honorable men, who just saved everyone's ***** from Amaris, getting so sick of the myopic, selfish nature of the House Lords, that he packs his **** up takes almost all of the SLDF, the force that saved everyone & got the **** out of the IS? Not big enough for you?

Nobody stopped to say, 'Wow we ran off General Kerensky. Maybe we should put aside our differences & come together for the greater good."?

Quote

Not true.
If the Clans had won on Tukayyid, ComStar would never have handed Terra to them. Even if they did, what would the Clans have accomplished? We want it for its symbolic value as cradle of mankind and former seat of the Star League. From a military point of view it is just another planet, furthermore very far from any line of supply if taken winning the proxy battle on Tukayyid.


Wrong. If they did not, they would have violated the agreement & all hell would have broken lose. Reneg on agreed upon terms of conditions with the Clans, that warriors spilled their blood & died for? The ilKhan would have been forced to take certain measures.

Now to Terra itself, yes it would be symbolic, a great morale boost for the Clans & a SERIOUS morale blow for the IS. You say it would have no significant military value? I disagree & the lore does also. Let us look at the IS in the year 2570:

Posted Image

Now remember the Clans are coming from the top down:

Posted Image

Now remember the CC & the FWL had been untouched. The CC basically told the other SS to go **** themselves & the FWL had the comfort of not being attacked, so much so that they were going to ship mod units to the SS that were being attacked. Now if you hold the centre, you have a direct shot at BOTH the FWL & the CC & you also cut the link of the FC in the middle. YOu then apply a wedge of two forces & work outward making them once again the FS & the LC.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 January 2014 - 03:47 PM.


#55 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

To that last bit, given how stretched resources would have been the tactic would have been incredibly foolish to pull off. The only chance it would have had of succeeding would have been if the Clans in lore actually played nice with one another instead of the constant one-upmanship (which, incidentally, is why if CW is ever released, we had damned well better band together as an organized front). A more long term campaign, as opposed to the madcap dash to Terra, where supply sources could be obtained, garrisoned, and reinforced - for mechs, food, parts, and other essentials - would also have made the Terra and outwards tactic more viable.

However, the structure and method in which the Clans invaded the IS quite simply did not have a legitimate chance as it was presented in the lore. Resource lines would have been stretched too far, infighting would only increase the closer to Terra they got, and when it would have dawned on the IS that Terra was the goal the unified efforts of the entire IS would have been likely to have responded as a (parallel universe) Second Star League.

Personally, I think it is interesting that the creation of a Second SLDF was almost guaranteed to have happened regardless (or rather in absence) of a Tukayyid or Operation Serpent situation.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 January 2014 - 04:03 PM.


#56 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:04 PM

Which is why they were written like that. If Operation Revival was prosecuted the same way as Operation Klondike, with ALL the Clans attacking ALL the worlds it would be a wrap. The FWL would never have the luxury of shipping of mod units to the other SS, they would be too busy fending off their own attacks.

#57 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

Been a wrap? I doubt it. Would they have made it to Terra? Actually, that is quite possible, but capturing Terra and actually being able to hold it from the other half of the Inner Sphere, plus whatever was not directly in the path of the Clan spearhead that was essentially unmolested is another story. Even then, a combined front with the blitzkrieg style fighting the Clans employed would very quickly outstrip its supply lines (as was the case with several clans). I would imagine the Clans would have starved to death - figuratively if not literally.

I imagine pilot mortality rates would catch up to them before before anything else, as I could absolutely see Clansmen using captured IS mechs to fight with even if they could not get spare or replacement parts for their lost omnimechs. Suddenly then they would have lost the technological advantages and be faced by a tremendous numbers disadvantage. After that, the Clans would be forced into guerilla warfare, cut off from escape back home along their overtaxed invasion route, which would only prolong the fighting.

As an alternate universe it would actually have been interesting fiction to read.

#58 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:56 PM

Warden.

Conquest only leads to more violence and bloodshed.

Human nature has a way of ruining even the best of human constructs and institutions, especially those that begin with naive ideas. That's what I find so fascinating about BT lore and what's unfolded from what I've read so far.

And the Clan Invasions seemed to help in making everything all the more lethal on the battlefield, which was something Kerensky was trying to spare as many people from with the Exodus in the first place, from what I understand so far.

#59 CyclonerM

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 05:46 AM

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The CC had no invaders to repulse & could not give two ***** about the other Successor States. You cannot have unity when even with a common enemy, one of you goes, "Well they haven't attacked me so it's not my problem. Good luck with that. Deuces."


I said it was a start, not unity yet.

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The FWL is a even worse problem. You cannot have unity through blackmail. "Help us or your child dies". That could NEVER be the foundation for unity, in any way, shape or form. Do you even realize what happened there? The F in FWL stands for FREE. As Thomas explained to Hanse, they are not like the other SS where at the end of the day one man has the final say.


AFAIK Thomas Marik started to concentrate more power on himself.. However, what act of dictatorship is to redirect some of the national production? He did not start a war.

Besides, your point does not stand here: i did not say Thomas Marik was allied with FedCom and DC. I just said he would not have stabbed the fedcom in the back in case they had to shift some regiments from the border to face the Clans. Generally, he was a pacifist so he presented no threat to an eventual unity , alliace or at least peace in the Inner Sphere.




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As Moses told the Pharaoh, "You condemn yourself with your own lips."

Big event you say? How about one of the most honorable men, who just saved everyone's ***** from Amaris, getting so sick of the myopic, selfish nature of the House Lords, that he packs his **** up takes almost all of the SLDF, the force that saved everyone & got the **** out of the IS? Not big enough for you?

Nobody stopped to say, 'Wow we ran off General Kerensky. Maybe we should put aside our differences & come together for the greater good."?


This point is moot.

A change must be sparked by a great event, but not always a great event sparks a change.

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Wrong. If they did not, they would have violated the agreement & all hell would have broken lose. Reneg on agreed upon terms of conditions with the Clans, that warriors spilled their blood & died for? The ilKhan would have been forced to take certain measures.

Focht could have thought it, not Myndo Waterly for sure.
By the way if i am correct if the Clans had won at Tukayyid ComStar should have give them ownership of Terra.. But in the bargaining no one said the ComGuards could not try to take it again! :ph34r:

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Now to Terra itself, yes it would be symbolic, a great morale boost for the Clans & a SERIOUS morale blow for the IS. You say it would have no significant military value? I disagree & the lore does also. Let us look at the IS in the year 2570:

Morale blow? I never read of people feeling such affection to Terra outside ComStar. It could be a far worse blow if the Clans had managed to capture a nation's capital world. They got close on Luthien.

How could a serious morale boost for the Clans help them against the combined half of the Sphere? Without a close supply line thehy could hardly resist. Moreover such a victory may only make the Clans more arrogant and even more blind.

Terra would be far worse of Wolcott, for example: both would have stretched supply lines but Terra is not behind the enemy lines nor the IS powers would be honor bound to not attack it again..

#60 pbiggz

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 12:45 PM

If terra became a difficult target (and as the most industrialized planet in the sphere with enough resources and infrastructure to perhaps single-handedly fuel a nation, that was likely) the clans may have been forced to activate more home clans for the invasion. The Diamond Sharks were already a reserve force, but ulric could have activated them as an assault force along with the Hells' Horses. The Star adders and cloud cobras as well could have joined. The Ice Hellions were eager beavers, but their behaviour in clan space while the initial invasion raged made sure they would never be activated.

If tukayyid hadn't happened, the wolves would certainly have won the race to terra, and had a reasonable chance at taking it (not all the comguard were on terra). HOLDING the planet is a different story. It would take the combined might of not only the 4 invader clans, but likely closer to 10 or 11. (Wolf, Falcon, Jaguar, Ghost bear, Nova Cat, Steel Viper, diamond shark, and hells horses as assault forces with cloud cobras, snow ravens and star adders as reserve forces). It would also take a complete change of clan tactics at large. The clans would have to use wolf-like tactics and largely abandon zellbrigen (which they already were in the process of doing). They would also have to bring back their war-ships, perhaps using the snow raven fleet as their naval coordinators, as they bid their ships away (part of ulric's machinations to halt the invasion) after turtle bay.

As it stands the clans were far to factional to ever stand a chance. It seems that the byproduct of crusader philosophy is factionalism. As soon as the crusaders weeded their way into the wolves the formerly dominant clan fractured. This is why the wardens are far more efficient.

Additionally, when aleksandr kerensky reached the pentagon worlds, he sent a message back to the inner sphere explaining why he led the SLDF into exile, via radio wave. It would take 1000 years to reach the periphery, over 1500 to reach terra itself. If Kerensky ever intended to return, THIS was the timeframe he was thinking of. When the map of the inner sphere had changed fundamentally, and the sphere was READY for the return of the SLDF, only then would the exiles of the star league return.

To be a crusader is to betray the words of kerensky himself.

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To all citizens of the Inner Sphere do I, Aleksandr Kerensky, send greetings.
Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.
Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.
Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.
Farewell.


The Crusaders were not interested in warding the inner sphere or guiding it, they invaded the inner sphere with a rose-tinted glasses, and a twisted view of a paradise held by evil dictators which they were unjustly ejected from. They came to the inner sphere to plunder and subjugate. In effect, Operation Revival was the realization of aleksandr kerensky's darkest nightmare, when the great armada he lead away in a last bid to protect the inner sphere returned on it's own initiative to destroy it.





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