66 replies to this topic

[MungFuSensei]

JD R, on 27 January 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

It look like you are ignoring one big fact.

Rear armor means you can turn around and run if you rear armor is weak you wont turn and run because you know you will die so you lose the retreat as a tactical alternativ. And retreat means you can fight after **** happens and the **** didnt cost your live.

This is a valid point but I think it's poor tactical thinking. If you gotta cut and run, that means your line is collapsing, or you're out on your own. Both situations are the first step to ending up dead. The loner situation is self evident, but if your line is collapsing, the last thing you wanna do is run. You run, and you open up your teammate's flanks to attack. Better to push forward, even at the cost damage, to maintain your teams overall position. By limiting your back armor, you are putting yourself in what Sun Tzu calls "The Death Ground". If you have no option of retreat, you will fight much harder to survive. Pushing that armor to the front gives you the ability to fight that much harder.

This is not a universal rule for all mechs. This mainly applies to mechs that'll hold the line (the large majority of us).

[JD R]

Often there isnt the one big group or there is one line to hold.

In my opinion the imporant point is stay alive and do dmg to the enemy and most times run(if you got nailed by 733c as example) and regroup with other helps your team more instead of waint until you get rolled by the enemy team.

And beeing able to lure enemy Mechs to your own team is better thant fight them and go out ~100dmg because you hold the line who shouldn't be hold.

And to answer you

Do not fight if you can not win.
Sun Tzu

[MungFuSensei]

JD R, on 27 January 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Often there isnt the one big group or there is one line to hold.

In my opinion the imporant point is stay alive and do dmg to the enemy and most times run(if you got nailed by 733c as example) and regroup with other helps your team more instead of waint until you get rolled by the enemy team.

And beeing able to lure enemy Mechs to your own team is better thant fight them and go out ~100dmg because you hold the line who shouldn't be hold.

And to answer you

Do not fight if you can not win.
Sun Tzu

Being the last one alive against greater numbers does nothing to help you win. If your only goal is padding your damage numbers, you are not playing effectively. Luring enemies is the job of lights, which in my earlier posts I mentioned aren't included in the "thin skin back" group. Furthermore, if you're able to control your position, you can retreat while presenting arms/side torsos instead of your rear. Those spots will have much more armor to take a beating, making your retreat much more viable. This is why I usually pick a corner to hold. Covers one side from fire, and just back-stepping a little can re-establish your position.

[Solkar]

MungFuSensei, on 26 January 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Best defense against wolfpack lights is a teammate. A light needs to constantly move. The only time he can stop and take an aimed shot is when no one's paying attention to him. Any other time all he can do is a quick swipe and run away. If you're paying attention, and stick with a buddy, the light won't have the time to wreck your back.

The experienced light pilots do not stop for back shots. Back shots are taken at 150 kph.

[Tesunie]

Krujiente, on 27 January 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

A: no light is going to go for a dragon's back when it has that delicious giant torso hump in the front, can drag a full laser shot over it at full speed

If this is directed at me, my higher rear armor is not for lights, but for when fighting everyone one else. I play my Dragon like a slightly slower light. I never stop moving. I run with the lights too. I will flank, pull, and chase. This often times leads me with my back turned to someone on the enemy team.

A light might not look at my backside as a viable target over another mech, but other mechs will shoot me, backside showing to them or not.

My Dragon loves lights, He likes to run with them, and chase down other lights not part of his pack and eat them. (When you are a heavy mech that moves at 104 KPH, you have to be different than other heavies, so you tend to run everything a little different than normal. Normal for a Dragon is more normal for a medium/light than another heavy.)

MungFuSensei, on 27 January 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Being the last one alive against greater numbers does nothing to help you win. If your only goal is padding your damage numbers, you are not playing effectively. Luring enemies is the job of lights, which in my earlier posts I mentioned aren't included in the "thin skin back" group. Furthermore, if you're able to control your position, you can retreat while presenting arms/side torsos instead of your rear. Those spots will have much more armor to take a beating, making your retreat much more viable. This is why I usually pick a corner to hold. Covers one side from fire, and just back-stepping a little can re-establish your position.

This is as much true, as it is false. If you are dead, you are useless to me and my team. If you are alive, you can still help and kill and win. As I have told my Spotters, yes, I love you locks. However, I don't expect them to die for me to get a few LRMs on target. I tell them to take care of themselves first, spot later. As far as spotters go, they are very useless to me when dead compared to alive.

[Zordicron]

In short:

Depends on mech, loadout and playstyle of said loadout.

In longer form:
Look up mech hitbox, it can make a difference on how you allocate. HBK for instance, if memory serves when looking at the right side torso(the hunch) even from the back side, most of it is considered front side torso. I put 4 points on the back of mine just so a laser grazing me doesnt show exposed internals from the back. I dont think i died once to a rear side torso on those mechs.

Awesomes: They eat it all in front CT, even when twisting sometimes. Stock they come with crazy rear armor. i put 12 points in the rear CT, and kept sides more even(not even, but like 70/30) because having weaker ST meant it encouraged enemy to maybe not aim for CT and also kept me from getting shot in the back and cored on my XL engined 9M etc.

Brawlers: almost all are heavy front load, with some getting revisions if I die to a back shot.
LRM boats. LOL back armor. If something gets you, you are too far from team or the match is lost anyway.
Fire support: very rare to get caught from behind, only mistakes on my part put me in that position. Spend enough time moving to flank and support it becomes silly to have more then basic protection on the back, based on mech.

Lights, and cicada: more balanced on CT, slightly more balanced on cicada ST rear, light mech rear ST depends on mech. Spider i find 80/20% is fine, I run 85/15 on the ecm one as I tend to hang by the team more and not run full speed all over like I do in 12 JJ 5v. Locust: doesnt matter what you do, your legs get blown off anyway.

really, all you need to do is start at a point you think might be reasonable for what the mech/loadout is, and then lower rear armor and frontload it slowly until you start getting cored from the rear, and then throw a point or two back on and call it good. it will vary by pilot, so each pilot needs to tweek that in.

*edit: I guess another way of saying it: if you ARE NOT frontloading armor, and die to back shots more then you like, you are either not paying attention, or runnig around like a tool during the match, running away far to much. Mechwarrior is not CoD, and the best method is to not get into a position where you need to run away in the first place, as most of the time the enemy has something faster then you, or enough range to kill you anyway. it is hard to run 1200M away from the enemy if you are in the wrong spot When I spectate a 110kph mech trying to run away from a commando, all i can do is face palm. No amount of back armor will save you and allow an escape.


Also, there was a joke thread about taking an Atlas DDC and putting almost all armor on back and then walking backwards into battle( the idea was once something got in front you would blast it to bits anyway) but i dont know anyone that tried it, or at least recorded it for my entertainment.

Edited by Eldagore, 27 January 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

I have a bad hsbbit of sometimes going Rambo on my atlast that a since I use no missiles on my d-dc I have extra tonage to work with so 20/30/20

even just using standard armor I'm almost at 614 max armor, won't be using FF though xD no room lol

[Tahribator]

Most of my brawlers(mediums, heavies, assaults) have at least 15 rear CT armor and 10-12 ST armor. This is because during torso twisting you tend to catch a few nasty rounds to the back, crippling you considerably. If the particular mech has terrible torso twist speeds and range, then something between 20 and 15 is required.

It is usually a good idea to frontload your armor, since most of the games will be ranged blob vs blob with fronts most exposed. Only in brawls with total chaos you need more rear armor. Lights love little back armor, but they can only freely target it when the target mech is isloted and not in a group. Even then a light swarm may be required to properly expose the back of a good pilots' mech.

Conversely, my lights have a lot of back armor as well(around 10-15 again) since you're doing mostly hit and runs against bigger mechs and expose your back meanwhile. This is especially true for Commandos, which have a humongous rear CT hitbox.

Edited by Tahribator, 30 January 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Curccu]

Front loading armor FTW!

Lowest back armor I got is Hunchie-4Hs right back torso.. 2 armor points.

most of my mechs have 5-10 back armor, it is extremely rare for me to get killed from behind.

CuriousCabbitBlue, on 27 January 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

I have a bad hsbbit of sometimes going Rambo on my atlast that a since I use no missiles on my d-dc I have extra tonage to work with so 20/30/20

even just using standard armor I'm almost at 614 max armor, won't be using FF though xD no room lol

FF doesn't increase your armor value it just makes your armor weight little less.

[Grayblue]

It totally depends on how you use a Mech.

My Catapult C1 seems to have more rear armor(20~25) than most others because I am concerned about getting surprised attacked from the rear or getting shot in the rear when I am retreating to extend distance, and I do not intend to compete in a brawl with the amount of front armor.

Edited by Grayblue, 04 February 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[Grayblue]

MungFuSensei, on 27 January 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

This is a valid point but I think it's poor tactical thinking. If you gotta cut and run, that means your line is collapsing, or you're out on your own. Both situations are the first step to ending up dead. The loner situation is self evident, but if your line is collapsing, the last thing you wanna do is run. You run, and you open up your teammate's flanks to attack. Better to push forward, even at the cost damage, to maintain your teams overall position. By limiting your back armor, you are putting yourself in what Sun Tzu calls "The Death Ground". If you have no option of retreat, you will fight much harder to survive. Pushing that armor to the front gives you the ability to fight that much harder.

This is not a universal rule for all mechs. This mainly applies to mechs that'll hold the line (the large majority of us).

That is not what Sun Tzu meant by "death ground." Also, if you read the book, he also not a fan of deliberately entering "death ground" either.

Anyway, a team maintaining a rigid "line" is outdated tactical thinking. What really works is each individual holding a position of advantage or maneuvering to maintain advantage and those strong individual positions creating a synergy effect.

[BaconCouch]

I think you bring up a valid point, a static line doesn't work, a semi fluid one, seeking points of advantage is more useful realistic. However, There is obviously one spot you don't want to be caught in any fight. its usually wide open, and lacks cover (EG) Water in Forest Colony if you aren't camping the ship. And those points are pretty obviously avoided in meta.

With the recent influxes of Firestarters I think this thread is as relevant as ever.

[rolly]

BaconCouch, on 23 January 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

...I think tactics and proper support can mitigate that risk, but that is just me.

I usually do 10 on my rear armor for my raven as well, but for that class it makes sense.

Oh noes. You said the T word and the S word. We don't speak of such things.

[BaconCouch]

You're right Rolly, what was I thinking?!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Really, my choice of rear armor depends a lot on the 'mech and how fast/agile I've got the thing running. It's also affected by front hitboxes as well.

Generally speaking, I keep my rear torso armor to about half of the front armor on average, with changes to balance depending on the following factors:

1. 'Mech Agility

If I'm being attacked from behind by a light 'mech, I'm going to turn and shoot back at it instead of ignoring it. This is not an absolute (I'm very unlikely to turn my back on a Jaegermech in order to stop a Jenner or Locust), but it's essentially true. That means that if my 'mech is more agile, capable of better torso twist, or faster, I need to put less weight into rear armor. That said, if the 'mech I'm piloting is fast enough I'm likely to leave the area instead of letting myself be sandwiched by enemies, so the balance then shifts back towards rear armor since it's difficult to navigate without looking where I'm going.

2. Torso Hitboxes

There's only so much armor that can be mounted on each of the three torso sections, and given that this is a game in which I shoot back at anything shooting me, I need to make sure I can survive facing my target. Because of this, if I have one or two torso sections that are particularly large (Catapult CT, Stalker LT/RT, Dragon CT, Quickdraw CT, Hunchback RT), that section's armor immediately gets more heavily weighted towards the front. Being destroyed from behind is a secondary concern, and just isn't going to matter if my 'mech can't survive getting hit by heavier firepower from in front anyways.

On the flip side, torso sections that are the same size as those of the other torso parts or larger from behind but smaller in front (Catapult LT/RT, Dragon LT/RT, Blackjack LT/RT, Stalker CT), then I'm going to weight that armor towards the rear. People who actually shoot a Catapult's side torsos from in front or even to the sides are few and far between, for example, but with the preponderance of XL engines in the chassis, it's easy for an ambushing pilot to determine that they should tear out the side torso with certainty rather than going for a center torso that they're unlikely to take out in time.

3. Mech Weight

With a given weight of 'mech comes a certain degree of priority as a target, a limitation on maneuverability, and a limitation on quantity of armor. With assault 'mechs, I always make sure I can at least take an AC/20 to the rear without taking any internal damage- this prevents sudden critical hits in the event something like a Blackjack, Shadow Hawk, or Hunchback manages to come up behind me out of nowhere, and vastly improves my 'mech durability in a brawl situation where I could be getting shot from literally any direction. Heavy 'mechs vary, but I try to make sure I can take a Gauss shot from behind and still be able to turn to find who shot me. Medium 'mechs I tend to stay close to the 1/3 rear armor 2/3 front armor pattern with some notable exceptions for the above items, and Light 'mechs I generally don't worry about diverging from the base pattern for, as a solid hit anywhere is likely to do the thing in anyhow.

4. 'Mech Role

If I'm operating as fire support, then my intent is to stay out of the spotlight and hang back. This means that if I'm direct-fire, lights are going to tend to not go after me; direct fire weapons are extremely dangerous to light 'mechs since none of them (outside standard PPCs) actually get less effective at close range- and that means that I can skimp on rear armor. On the other hand, if I'm runing LRMs as fire support (with or without direct-fire weapons) then light 'mechs are likely to consider me a free target who they can ambush at leisure and I need to be wary of getting suddenly jumped from behind, so I need to weight the rear armor.



That said, my preferences are preferences, and they're predicated heavily on my actual experiences in the game. If I had suffered less-sudden or even just less in general 'mech explosions due to sudden Jenner, I would probably have different armor tendencies. Even my existing trends are prone to change depending on my recent experiences in-match- there's no guarantee that when I take a 'mech into combat it's going to have the armor balanced the same way last time I dropped in it, or even the same total number of armor points. Because of that I could not in good faith claim that any of what I have given here is anything but a guideline, but it -is- how I do it.

Happy 'mech tuning, people.

-QKD-CR0

[PhoenixFire55]

Coming from a meta-Victor pilot I know well ... "Rear armor? What rear armor?".

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 24 February 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Zeede]

There are plenty of times I wished I had more front armor, and almost zero times that I wished I had more rear armor. Hence I will tend to favor front armor.

[Xanilos]

I use 10-15 pts regardless of the mech.

[oldradagast]

I can't recall all the armor details, but I know I always run 21 rear center torso armor on my Atlas's. Why? To take an AC20 hit while still not coring the mech. A silly reason, perhaps, but it does seem to work - Atlas's attract AC20 rounds since everyone just wants to take down the big, scary mech.

Hunchbacks are another special case. For any of them with the big weapon pod, decrease the REAR armor on the right torso and increase it on the front. It'll help the hunch last longer since nearly the whole thing counts as front right torso. Thanks to Koniving for pointing this out to me and other folks.

Also, for those handful of nuts out there - like me - who do play Awesomes, that mech has ghastly default armor distribution. The rear torsos are badly over-armored, and the mech has less than max arm armor - despite the huge size of the arms - while having max leg armor... even though nobody every shoots an Awesome's legs. So, yeah - Awesome's come with great armor values stock, but the armor needs to be shifted around for them to have much hope of working.

Edited by oldradagast, 24 February 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[CarlBar]

Honestly IMO Mediums are fast enough in general that rear armor isn't a huge issue as you can unless surrounded, (which is a death sentence anyway), keep your rear mostly pointing away.

Assaults can't touch a light behind them, they need teamates for that, and if the teamates are actually doing this sane light pilots won't pop into view and eat damage to the face, so again rear armor isn't much of an issue.

Heavies are more awkward sitting between the two and so are more variable IMO.