48 replies to this topic

[Phobic Wraith]

Tesunie, on 03 February 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

We can find problems, without needing to "push it till they fix it". Test it out a few matches every so often to see if it's fixed, fine. But to spam it because "it needs to be fixed" is the opposite of "civilized and adult manner" and is rather childish, in my opinion. There is a more civilized manner to go about the issue, at least at first before it becomes a "meta"... maybe...

You know what? You're right. "Exploiting" probably isn't the most adult approach to handling any situation. I should have made my point a little differently. What I think I'm trying to say is that (not referring to game breaking bugs and exploits) we shouldn't avoid the "meta."

The meta says a few things about us the devs and the game in general. First, no one is going to avoid something that works better than another thing. That's why front-loaded and pinpoint damage is more popular than damage over time. Sure, we can play nice and use lasers instead of PPCs because that's the way it's "supposed" to be, but that doesn't fix the problem - which I have no need of getting into, it's been discussed to death.

Second, the meta tells us how the devs want the game to be played. And as a consumer, I want to know exactly what this game is - especially if I'm figuring out if it's worth my money. Let's be honest with ourselves. PGI is a company and if the current game didn't make any money, they would fix it pretty quick. If the meta was detrimental to their income stream, they'd change it.

And finally the meta is a good indicator for MW:O's overall heath. Avoiding the meta just fools us into thinking the game is better off than it really is. It does not fix it.

If we really love this game and we're committed to its success, we should show our discontent. It means we care. People who don't care avoid problems because it doesn't concern them. If we want something to be fixed we should be discontent. We should bring it up, we should be active about it (as much as forum goers can be). I'd say that's anything but a childish reaction.

[Devlin Stone]

z00med, on 03 February 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

P.P.S: Convergence... Could someone spare half a minute and explain to me what it is supposed to do? I know what the word means (synonym for changeover or transition) (and that it does nothing in MWO^^), but it doesnt make sense to me...

http://en.wikipedia....n_harmonisation

When weapons fire converges to do damage on a single point or area of a 'Mech. There are a few ways to look at convergence.

Travel convergence -

In ballistics (and PPCs) the travel speed will effect convergence on a moving target because the target will have moved between when, for example, an AC/20 and a PPC fired at the same time reach the target. Weapon travel speed only effects dissimilar weapons. Lasers and machine guns are hit-scan, so they don't suffer time convergence issues but will often have their damage spread over a wide area. LB10-Xs suffer from both issues. Don't use LB10-Xs.

Angle of convergence -

The angle that a weapon needs be deflected from normal to focus on the targeting reticule, where 'normal' is where the weapon would point if you aimed at some point an infinite distance away. Or, if you like, 'Straight forward'. As far as I'm aware, right now there are no limits on angle of convergence. An AC/20 mounted in each arm of a Jaggermech could probably shoot an elemental off it's own cockpit glass.

Speed of convergence -

How quickly it takes a weapon to change angle of convergence. Right now there is no delay. Those last two are why I called convergence is a broken mechanic.

Edited by Devlin Stone, 03 February 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

This guide isn't about working around exploits. My point is that a lot of imbalance in MWO right now is being created by bad decision-making. People get impatient and run off on their own. People get greedy/freaked out and run after the Jenner. THESE are what creates stomps. My guide exists as an experiment to see how many stomps can be prevented by teaching the community to play smarter.

If anything is being "worked around", it's the nature of the game - big, slow, ponderous robots that cannot be easily maneuvered out of bad situations. Make a mistake and you pay, and the snowball kicks in. This is ALWAYS the way it's going to be. It's not a matter of convergence, it's a matter of avoiding situations that leave you the lone target of the wrath of twelve big stompy robots.

This isn't to say that we couldn't have more and better features in the game. But I'll bet real money right now that they wouldn't stop a match from turning into a stomp for the exact same reasons they are right now.

[cSand]

Hey good thread!

[Tesunie]

Devlin Stone, on 03 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I think you meant to quote Phobic? And yeah, it's not even like all game or balance issues are something you can exploit, or reasonably expect people to avoid exploiting. Ghost heat is a broken system but you can't exploit it. Convergence is a broken system, but you can't reasonably expect people not to exploit it.

Take my post as "I agree with you, but also disagree at the same time". There are some things one can do to help balance, and there are other things people can't do and PGI (or in the case with any game, whomever makes it) needs to do.

Phobic Wraith, on 03 February 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

You know what? You're right. "Exploiting" probably isn't the most adult approach to handling any situation. I should have made my point a little differently. What I think I'm trying to say is that (not referring to game breaking bugs and exploits) we shouldn't avoid the "meta."

The meta says a few things about us the devs and the game in general. First, no one is going to avoid something that works better than another thing. That's why front-loaded and pinpoint damage is more popular than damage over time. Sure, we can play nice and use lasers instead of PPCs because that's the way it's "supposed" to be, but that doesn't fix the problem - which I have no need of getting into, it's been discussed to death.

Second, the meta tells us how the devs want the game to be played. And as a consumer, I want to know exactly what this game is - especially if I'm figuring out if it's worth my money. Let's be honest with ourselves. PGI is a company and if the current game didn't make any money, they would fix it pretty quick. If the meta was detrimental to their income stream, they'd change it.

And finally the meta is a good indicator for MW:O's overall heath. Avoiding the meta just fools us into thinking the game is better off than it really is. It does not fix it.

If we really love this game and we're committed to its success, we should show our discontent. It means we care. People who don't care avoid problems because it doesn't concern them. If we want something to be fixed we should be discontent. We should bring it up, we should be active about it (as much as forum goers can be). I'd say that's anything but a childish reaction.

I think you took what I said the right way (I couldn't think how to post it in a better worded way in the 2 minutes I had left before running out the door for work).

Basically, using meta is one thing. Using something you know is broken is another.

Also, I don't tend to play the meta, I shall openly admit it. I have my mechs set up in a way that works for me, and if it isn't meta, it doesn't seem to matter to me. (Actually, the current AC meta and me aren't getting along. ACs don't seem to work that well for me. But I'm on good terms with missiles and lasers... And so far, this AC meta isn't that bad, and isn't as overpowering as the PPC meta before hand. Recall the 4-6 PPC Stalkers? Now that was almost game breaking, and I wished people would have stopped using it, but it was what it was, and I fought on!) Following the "meta" isn't the issue. The meta will always be "what works best", and why wouldn't you want to use what it is that works best?

I think I'm rambling again, so I'm going to stop now... While I am still making at least some sense...

[BaconCouch]

Honestly, they just need to make it harder to shoot when using jump jets, or falling after using them. More reticule shake means it takes a whole lot of skill to pull it off.

[Sandpit]

+1, good basic info

[Steven Dixon]

I don't think that the post's title is particularly apt*, but I think the content is useful. These are things that can help a new player and hopefully they will come in handy to someone.


*perhaps something like 'five simple and easy things you can do to improve your mwo experience'. Because the way its worded sounded slightly like you were directing a comment to PGI about things that you believed needed to be balanced rather than a post for players to seek guidance.

[Deathz Jester]

Rebas Kradd, on 31 January 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Glorious words

Can I shake your hand? No sarcasm intended, I just thought that was well constructed and well said.


On a sidenote: I feel as though almost no one actually "thinks" in this "thinking-man's shooter"

[Rebas Kradd]

Steven Dixon, on 05 February 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

I don't think that the post's title is particularly apt*, but I think the content is useful. These are things that can help a new player and hopefully they will come in handy to someone. *perhaps something like 'five simple and easy things you can do to improve your mwo experience'. Because the way its worded sounded slightly like you were directing a comment to PGI about things that you believed needed to be balanced rather than a post for players to seek guidance.

Tweaked.

[Cimarb]

You may want to mention that "staying in a group" only works if you are smart enough to know how to move around whilst in that group. I can't begin to count how many times I have saw groups of mechs choke in the doorways of Terra Therma, shoot the crap out of each other in the tunnels of the city maps, or otherwise cluster like idjits...

[Rebas Kradd]

Cimarb, on 18 February 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

You may want to mention that "staying in a group" only works if you are smart enough to know how to move around whilst in that group. I can't begin to count how many times I have saw groups of mechs choke in the doorways of Terra Therma, shoot the crap out of each other in the tunnels of the city maps, or otherwise cluster like idjits...

Added to the end of point 3.

Although it's worth mentioning that some maps (like Terra Therma and Canyon) are designed to funnel teams into lines and thus make things more interesting.

[Cimarb]

Rebas Kradd, on 18 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Added to the end of point 3.

Although it's worth mentioning that some maps (like Terra Therma and Canyon) are designed to funnel teams into lines and thus make things more interesting.

Definitely, but being able to manage those choke points begins with the individual, and no amount of balancing by PGI is going to help it.

[DONTOR]

I really like # 5 in particular, you could add to it that smoke pouring from a side of a mech is a sign that a portion of that mech is opened up to the internals. If I see this I quickly target said mech to find its weakness and whether it should / could be dealt with quickly or efficiently.

[Cimarb]

Tesunie, on 01 February 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Agreed.

Only thing I'd mention is with the "rapidly pressing R to show that a team of enemies is over that ridge" concept. I agree with this, but if I already am aware of that team (AKA: Someone else already did that), my LRMs would be much more thankful if you could keep that lock on one mech, if possible. Please?

Don't know how many LRMs I've wasted (and I do try to get my own locks too) trying to help someone, just for them to "switch targets" as soon as I press the trigger. Then, I move on to their next target, only for the same thing to happen again, and again. It wastes my LRMs (till I give up on the unstable locks) and makes it so I have a harder time finding the person who could really use my help who has a stable lock...

However, at the same given time/breath, yes. I want to know that there is a group of enemies slightly behind and to the left/right of me, so I can either greet them with open guns, or move to help support from that direction/hide from the coming doom.

I would absolutely LOVE to have an "assist teammate" button that would target a specific teammates active target. Oh how this would help LRMs. Just make the F1-12 buttons target that teammates target!

[Dramborleg]

"While I welcome debate, I'd actually like the moderators of this board to canonize my thread which is no different from the other threads we have every week with a list of basic dos and don'ts that are only useful to newbies and bads."

Edited by Dramborleg, 23 February 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Buso Senshi Zelazny]

Not really balance related per say, but good points as a general guide to combat for new pilots.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Casting "Raise Dead" to reinforce that these still work...

[InspectorG]

Shar Wolf, on 29 November 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Casting "Raise Dead" to reinforce that these still work...

No Duh!

I was speccing last night and noticed a disturbing lack of pressing the 'R' button.

[Mercy Killing]

I'm noticing a lot more heavy mechs in the mix for about the past month. Every time I log in to play, there's always upwards of 45% heavies out there. Kinda makes for hard to balance matchmaker, methinks. What say you lot?