218 replies to this topic

[RedEagle86]

Lights should be ok given new rules. I'm more worried about the removal of lower arm actuators for mounting a ppc, AC, or a gauss. And the comment that 1 IS mech = 1 Clan Mech.

[wanderer]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I suspect this might be in error. Sure, the current light mech line up is slow, but overall every other mech they have is exceptionally fast for their tonnage. Timberwolf with speed tweak is booking 89, for example. A 75 ton mech moving 90? How about the Warhawk at 65 KPH stock, 71 with speed tweak? Most clan mechs tend to run between 80 and 100 KPH, overall, whereas there is a lot more overall stratification amongst IS mechs. Once we eventually get the faster lights, like Firemoth and Arctic Cheetah, the light mech speediness we expect will be matched, so even that currently slow bit will be covered.

Clan forces actually are pretty mobilty-similar at this point up through the Timber Wolf, with only the assaults really showing any lack of pep- the Warhawk is average for an assault, and only the Dire Wolf is truly sluggish. Slower on the light and assault ends, but similar to or often faster than much of the medium-to-heavy range and a much tighter "pack" speed overall. This might actually help early Clan forces stick together, which will be critical if unit sizes are smaller.

And as I've said elsewhere, engine speed means we're going to see a chassis more focused on given roles. They gave us the slower, more sniperish pair to start with- the speedier chassis are readily available to add later, even though I might well have preferred seeing the Fire Moth for lights or the Viper for a medium in the original offerings. They're certainly going to be popular choices when introduced later.

[Pariah Devalis]

wanderer, on 13 February 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Clan forces actually are pretty mobilty-similar at this point up through the Timber Wolf, with only the assaults really showing any lack of pep- the Warhawk is average for an assault, and only the Dire Wolf is truly sluggish. Slower on the light and assault ends, but similar to or often faster than much of the medium-to-heavy range and a much tighter "pack" speed overall. This might actually help early Clan forces stick together, which will be critical if unit sizes are smaller.

And as I've said elsewhere, engine speed means we're going to see a chassis more focused on given roles. They gave us the slower, more sniperish pair to start with- the speedier chassis are readily available to add later, even though I might well have preferred seeing the Fire Moth for lights or the Viper for a medium in the original offerings. They're certainly going to be popular choices when introduced later.

Would not mind the Arctic Cheetah , Huntsman, or Gargoyle, either, honestly.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 February 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Tesunie]

I've been playing slow lights (including the Cicada) for a while now. The Clan mechs will not be any different for me if I pick them up. Slow lights aren't meta, but they aren't DoA either. Otherwise, I wouldn't see such success going 80-90 kph in my Cicada 3C (set up like the Hollander III). Or my Locust 3S with a 100 std rated engine...

[Silence Jin Mang]

Honestly, even going slow in lights now is fine, its called skill. If you have it, you succeed, if you don't, you die. Simple as that.

[Richee]

i'm not so much concerned about their lack of speed, as i agree that they have the firepower to justify it, but i'm fearful at their paltry amount of heatsinks relative to their amount of heat that their weapons would produce. the Nova and Adder Prime variants are perfect examples of this, The Adder Prime with erppcs and a flamer and the Nova with 12 er medium lasers. you can have a 60 ton quickdraw with 2 erppc's (which is a lighter armament that the Adder) a xl 330 and 18 double heatsinks at about the same speed with more heatsinks than the Adder or Nova could ever mount. While the Quickdraw is (fairly) easy to manage with such a loadout i fear the the Adder (and Nova) will be very punishing to pilot.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Heh no need for extreme defensive.. im eyeing for one of the small packages.. but wanted to see what people honestly thought of the Kit Fox & Adder.

[SniperCon]

pbiggz, on 13 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Don't be obtuse, the counters to the DOA argument have been shown here multiple times. If you elect to ignore them, that is your own problem, but it doesn't make you any less wrong, it just makes you outwardly stupid.

Let's define DOA. DOA does not mean no one will pilot the mech. DOA does not mean no one will be successful. DOA means it will not be used in competition.

There are better options at 35 tons and at 97 kph, so neither the Kit Fox nor Adder will offer any competitive advantage. Hence, DOA; like the Locust.

edit: And please explain what is outwardly stupid about upgrading to a Timberwolf.

Edited by SniperCon, 14 February 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Tesunie]

SniperCon, on 14 February 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Let's define DOA. DOA does not mean no one will pilot the mech. DOA does not mean no one will be successful. DOA means it will not be used in competition.

There are better options at 35 tons and at 97 kph, so neither the Kit Fox nor Adder will offer any competitive advantage. Hence, DOA; like the Locust.

edit: And please explain what is outwardly stupid about upgrading to a Timberwolf.

Sooo.... we are to make this game only and just for the competitive crowd? Ignore any and everyone else?

And... I do well in my slower lights... (Need to have a "sad puppy dog eye" emote.)

[Pariah Devalis]

The problem with any game that could be taken competitively is that the competitive people (aside from generally having egos the size of a jumpship) are very good at finding game breaking advantages or builds, yet only make up an incredibly small proportion of the people who actually play the game. So, you are stuck with people who can find "problems" and abuse the hell out of them, yet these issues they find are not representative of the vast majority of the players' experiences.

It creates an awkwardness. The game would, in theory, be healthier if everything was tuned for competitive players, but on the other hand much of the competitive playstyle and environment simply does not exist for Joe Average Gamer, and therefore is worthless information to them. So where would be the better direction to go? Balance for the minority, or balance for the majority?

Competitive players generally fail to see how their perspective can be ignored and get frustrated, despite having potentially valid input for games at their level, while casual players generally play with what they have for fun and may have totally different expectations or desires to better fit with the playstyle and environment they deal with, and coupled with the typical competitive player's attitude can foster resentment by the average player to the competitive one.

This applies to any game, by the way, not just MWO. LOL is a great example of the extremes of it, for example.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 February 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[SniperCon]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Sooo.... we are to make this game only and just for the competitive crowd? Ignore any and everyone else?

Not at all. Just that the competitive scene defines DOA. I do glorious battle in a number of DOA mechs and use flamers just for fun.

[Pando]

I would love to see "stock" game modes clan vs IS.

[Tesunie]

SniperCon, on 14 February 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

[/size]
Not at all. Just that the competitive scene defines DOA. I do glorious battle in a number of DOA mechs and use flamers just for fun.

I remember when people said the Spider was a DoA mech when it came out...

Pando, on 14 February 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I would love to see "stock" game modes clan vs IS.

I would like to just see a "stock" game mode period...

[Tesunie]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 February 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

The problem with any game that could be taken competitively is that the competitive people (aside from generally having egos the size of a jumpship) are very good at finding game breaking advantages or builds, yet only make up an incredibly small proportion of the people who actually play the game. So, you are stuck with people who can find "problems" and abuse the hell out of them, yet these issues they find are not representative of the vast majority of the players' experiences.

It creates an awkwardness. The game would, in theory, be healthier if everything was tuned for competitive players, but on the other hand much of the competitive playstyle and environment simply does not exist for Joe Average Gamer, and therefore is worthless information to them. Competitive players generally fail to see how their perspective can be ignored and scream loudly, despite having potentially valid input for games at their level, while casual players generally play with what they have for fun and may have totally different expectations or desires to better fit with the playstyle and environment they deal with, and coupled with the typical competitive player's attitude can foster resentment by the average player to the competitive one.

This applies to any game, by the way, not just MWO. LOL is a great example of the extremes of it, for example.

My point (which I think you fully grasp) is that, just because the "competitive community" says something is dead doesn't mean it can't be added into the game anyway. If something is a problem in the competitive side of the game, it probably will trickle down and be a problem for the casual player eventually as well, at least for some balances.

Basically, I'd rather see more options in the game, even if some of those options are "reskins of this". Not every mech in the game needs to "have a purpose" to be here. I want a Hollander just to have a Hollander, even though the Raven and Cicada can do the same things... (And I want the Crab even though the Hunchback 4p can do it as well. And I want the Kind Crab too...)

[CyclonerM]

SniperCon, on 14 February 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

There are better options at 35 tons and at 97 kph, so neither the Kit Fox nor Adder will offer any competitive advantage. Hence, DOA; like the Locust.

For example? Do you have "competitive" builds for a Jenner with 2 ERPPCs? Do you have another light 'Mech with something like an AC/5, an ER large laser and still room for some missile weapons?

[Pariah Devalis]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

My point (which I think you fully grasp) is that, just because the "competitive community" says something is dead doesn't mean it can't be added into the game anyway. If something is a problem in the competitive side of the game, it probably will trickle down and be a problem for the casual player eventually as well, at least for some balances.

Basically, I'd rather see more options in the game, even if some of those options are "reskins of this". Not every mech in the game needs to "have a purpose" to be here. I want a Hollander just to have a Hollander, even though the Raven and Cicada can do the same things... (And I want the Crab even though the Hunchback 4p can do it as well. And I want the Kind Crab too...)

Personally, I would love to see IS lights get the Clan treatment. By that, I mean set firm, hard caps on the maximum engine sizes on a per chassis basis. Ravens were never supposed to be fast, long distance roamer and scouts, but they are well armed. Jenners were. Spiders were designed to as well, but with only the firepower available to hunt the insect series of mechs (Wasp, Stinger, Locust). Locusts were designed to be about as fast as possible. By giving as much freedom as we have to max engine sizes, all the light mechs run together and compete with one another for the exact same role. I say stratify it.

Engine mods are fine, but limit it. Severely. Like Ravens with a top speed of 110 before speed tweak. Locusts with 160 or 170. Jenner somewhere in the middle, right there with the Spider. Commando faster than the Jenner but slower than the Locust, and Firestarter slower than the Jenner but faster than the Raven.

Force the mechs into the purposes their frames were made for. Load them out as you wish, but you cannot turn a Bomber into a Fighter, a VW Beetle into a Formula 1 Racer, or a Speed Boat into a Cruise Ship. You should get a mech knowing what to expect of it, so that you can get a mech to fill a particular role. You know, that whole Role Warfare thing....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 February 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[SniperCon]

CyclonerM, on 14 February 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

For example? Do you have "competitive" builds for a Jenner with 2 ERPPCs? Do you have another light 'Mech with something like an AC/5, an ER large laser and still room for some missile weapons?

2 PPC scouts are generally run like this at 133.7 kph.

[Tesunie]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 February 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Force the mechs into the purposes their frames were made for. Load them out as you wish, but you cannot turn a Bomber into a Fighter, a VW Beetle into a Formula 1 Racer, or a Speed Boat into a Cruise Ship. You should get a mech knowing what to expect of it, so that you can get a mech to fill a particular role. You know, that whole Role Warfare thing....

Thing is, as mentioned in a discussion about the Dragon I had in another thread, people want every mech to fill every role possible. They don't want mechs like the Dragon which can only fit into certain roles and can't "spread out" into other roles. They all want to go "meta", such as all lights being super fast, and heavies being armored and able to full out with assault style weapon loadouts, etc. So many people want all mechs to "do the same thing" while at the same time having it "be something different that no other mech can do". There were people who fought the Jagermech coming in because "the Cat-k2 does the same thing, so we don't need the Jagermech, we need X mech instead".

I also agree with mechs following a little closer to their intended roles when possible. The Commando wasn't suppose to be a super fact scout light, it was a light that had a big punch for it's weight class. The Locust was suppose to be a fast scout. The Jenner a fast striker mech, but poorly armored. The CIcada a fast scout medium, who could carry more weapons/armor than most scout lights. The Charger was designed to be an Assault scout, with lots of speed, jump, and armor, but low on weapons.

Honestly, I'd just be happy to see a "slow" Atlas on the field, instead of the "super fast" Atlases we currently see. (To do this, they would have to decouple twist speed from engine size, then they could limit engine size a bit more.)

[Tesunie]

SniperCon, on 14 February 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

2 PPC scouts are generally run like this at 133.7 kph.

Puma, I mean Adder, could do that same loadout, going a little slower, and be much cooler about it. It could even possibly pair that dual CERPPC set up with some sets of SSRMs for some cooler, closer range punch, or even some CLRMs... The Clan mechs (in this pack) might not have the speed, but they should have the punch instead. Play them smart and carefully and it will still work very well. Rush in alone and try to race, and you will crash and burn.

As I said, I play a slow Locust. People normally laugh at it in concept, but those that have seen it in play (as I seem to typically be last survivor in a bad match with this mech), and I get a lot of complements. It's only got 2 LRM5s, 2 tons ammo, 2 SRM2s, 1 ton ammo, and a Std 100 engine. It isn't suppose to hunt lights, strike fast, or any other "typical" light mech thinking. It hangs out with the team, maybe spaced out a little farther for spotting or such, and shoot at targets while ducking in and out of cover, or around my own team as needed. The concept is to use all my LRM ammo before I even think about trying to use the SRMs.

I've had very good luck with that Locust build. It's one of my best preforming Locusts I own. It out damages and gains more c-bills and exp than my other Locusts by far. The 3M sometimes can give it a run for it's money, but it still does better overall over even the 3M.

My Cicada 3C is set up closely to the Hollander III mech, with a single Guass and a med laser. It runs around 90 kph (98 I think), and I find it fast enough to go off on its own, sneak around behind the enemy, and then duck out from cover, shoot quickly into a rear, and then hide again. I leave the enemy confused as to what hurt them most times, and distract them from my team as they look for the source of the damage. If I'm lucky, I can keep a mech guessing what hurt them for a while. If not, they find me quicker than expected, then I misdirect them farther when I run away, loop around, and tend to target another enemy mech in the same fashion.


Slow lights (and the Cicada) are very viable. They just aren't following the current meta concepts of a light in the game at this time. That doesn't mean they will be DoA. It just means that it will take certain skills to make it work. I'd say, let them come into the game first, give them a try, and then see if they are as bad as people seem to think they are. I have a suspicion that they will run fine in this game, as they will have more weapons on them to counter the slower speeds.

[Koniving]

John McFianna, on 13 February 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Soo.. the engine rating in Omnis cannot be changed...

Kit Fox - 97,2kph
Adder - 97,2kph

...that makes the Clan lights very very slow compared to contemporary IS builds, where life & survivability begins somewhere at 120 kph+...

Thoughts on that?

Five words. Armor equality needs to go.

"Why not base max armor on stock?"

Let's face it. Mechs are NOT built equally. Wait, hear me out. There's a solution here.

Those that suck at weapons, speed, or both, have superior armor at Stock.

In a game where min-maxing is everything, having identical armor for all mechs of the same weight limits essentially obsoletes more than 75% of the mechs available in favor of those with superior speed, firepower or both.

If we're sacrificing tabletop rules as PGI did by imposing engine limits (inner sphere) higher or lower than is available to all variants of any mech in a weight class, as well as slapping hardpoints on them, and yet keeping the "you can't change Clan mech engines period" rule, then the number one rule that needs to go is the armor equality.

Consider this: Most of the under performing variants and mechs all start with superior armor to those that are superior in speed, firepower, or both. It's their one redeeming value. A value that currently every mech of the same weight class can do.

So what was the point? What's a solution? Well unlike Tabletop, the book lore does not agree with armor equality. In fact some books have quotes and references saying that for reasons other than money, mechs of the same weight class just can't have the same armor.

Spoiler

(As an example), "A Jagermech just can't compete toe to toe with a Catapult K2 in open ground. It's armor is just too thick and even with a full crew and months to do it we can never match it's armor." "What are our options then?" "Terrain and a prayer."

Tabletop you can make that Jager wear the same armor. MWO you can. But the book lore says you can't for various reasons some realistic some completely made up. Well damn. Let's use that!

First, to credit JustWannaPlay, this idea is basically to use in his words: "They base the engine limits and hardpoints on stock. Why not armor? Use stock to decide armor." I just gave it a number and began pitching it.

The ideas:
Stock armor + 100 = new max. (It's a random, even, simple number. Can be any number so long as it's an even one.)
Or stock armor + a set # of tons additional armor = new max.

In either case we're essentially taking our finger to the equalizer on the stereo and raising all the sliders up by a set, even amount from their Stock values. This is literally stock armor + x amount, so the mech variant's original intention in armor is preserved and literally defines it's new maximum armor. If it's described as having paper thin armor, it will have paper thin armor. If it's described as being a walking damage sponge, it will become a walking damage sponge.

Let's compare some light mechs! (Sorry if this only uses Inner Sphere mechs but the idea is to apply it to the Clan mechs as well).

Fast mechs, Locusts, Jenner D, Cicadas, etc. Many of them have 128 armor.
Redeeming notes:

Spoiler

Before you freak out...
Redeeming values to note: Structure is not changed. 20 ton mechs have 69 structure, 35 ton mechs have 119, Cicadas have 137. Even with identical armor Jenners will outlive Locusts, Cicadas will outlive Jenners in damage.

Cicadas only get 4 engine ratings above their current stock, but a Jenner gets more than 12 ratings, Cicadas need more speed as they are by stock faster than Jenners which makes up for the size. Their large size also allows them to still be hit even if well above 170 kph.

Modest lights. 2 of the Firestarters (2 at 176 armor and 2 at 208 armor), Raven 3-L (161) have decent armor.

SLOW lights, Raven 2x (208), 4x (234), and the Adder (Puma) have real armor. In fact the Raven 2x has armor comparable to 1 Shadowhawk. A 35 ton mech with equal armor to a 55 ton mech. Scary, isn't it? And the 4X? More.

Some mechs combine real armor, speed, and heat problems (Jenner F, 234).

That's just the stock values. The ideas of course are stock + 100 or stock + # tons of armor.

For each mech and variant, take the STOCK armor and add 100 or a set tonnage of armor to that as each new maximum limit. Bam. USEFUL slow light mechs as light brawlers. Some can compete on equal or superior footing to certain medium mechs in terms of armor.

But what will this do across the board?

Awesome versus Victor. Victor has superior firepower, speed, and manueverability. What did the Awesome have? Superior armor. Drastically superior armor. The 9M can't equip its stock armor. If it could, it would have over 500 points of armor.

Dragons. The Dragons have superior armor to two of the three 65 ton chassis mechs. But can they use it? Nope. The 1-C can't even equip its stock armor. Meanwhile the Quickdraws has about half its armor (even though at least one of them gains more from this than they currently can use) but make up for it in being able to carry more and lighter or simply better weaponry and being able to jump.

The Thunderbolt has armor comparable to a Stalker. The 9SE can't equip its stock armor.

Urbanmech versus Spider.

• The Urbanmech has 192 points of armor stock.
  
• The Spider has 112 stock.
  
  • Both are 30 ton mechs.
• The urban mech's top speed with how PGI does engine limits at it's largest possible engine cap is 62 kph With Speed Tweak.
  
  • Can it compare to a Spider in the current system with both having 210 armor max?
    
    • No.
• Stock, the Urbamech has 80 points of armor above the Spider to make up for the lack of speed.
  
  • After the change, the Spider gains 2 points of armor (current max 210, new max with stock 100 is 212) and the Urbanmech stays 80 points of armor ahead.
    
    • Both at stock and both at maximum, the difference in armor between 30 ton spider and 30 ton Urbanmech is 80 points of armor.
      
    • Can it compete now despite being slower than dirt? Yes. It's chances are about as fair as in Battletech.

It just keeps going across the board. Stock's intention is 100% preserved. The Battletech feel is brought forth. The mechs get more flavor and diversity. The slow lights can actually have a purpose. Win-win-win!


The difference between the two similar ideas? Examples?

Spoiler

Note that with both concepts, the time to kill on Strong, Powerful mechs generally goes ~down~ and time to kill on weaker mechs generally goes ~up~.

For the most part this is just to complete the meddling that PGI has done, as all Ravens, all Jenners, etc. in the 35 ton class can use the same engines by tabletop rules. With limits on them and weapon hardpoints slapped on we get partial identifying characteristics. But lost is the most important defining part about each mech and variant: It's unique armor identity.

My idea, inspired by JustWannaPlay (Why not base armor on stock for each mech?) and WayBadMojo (A Jager should never be able to carry this much armor. This isn't a Jager, it's a miniature Atlas.)

Stock + 100.
Using 2 variants of a Shadowhawk and a Kintaro as an example.
Current max armor for 55 ton mechs. 370 armor.
Current structure (maintained, NOT CHANGED) = 185 structure.

• SHD-2D2: Stock armor: 208. + 100 new max 308. (Armor of a Raven 2X!)
  
• SHD-5M: Stock armor 336. + 100 new max 436. (Armor of a Centurion AL; best Centurion armor).
  
• KTO-18: Stock armor 352. + 100 new max 452. (Trumps all Shadowhawks in armor.)
  
• Golden Boy: Stock armor 368. + 100 new max 468. (Makes up for lack of speed with high max armor.)

The same mechs again, with the + set tons concept by Buckminister which is to allow Ferro to be worth something. We'll use 3 tons as the universal higher armor limit.

Note: 1 ton Standard Armor = 32 points.
1 ton Ferro armor = 36 points. (Yes, the intention is to break another stupid rule for balance's sake.)
Using 3 tons again. + 96 standard, + 108 (+ stock armor tons * 4).

• SHD-2D2: Stock armor: 208. + 3 tons standard = new standard max 304. (Armor of a Raven 2X!)
  
  • Stock armor 208 + 3 tons when set to Ferro = (6.5 tons + 3 tons * 36 per ton) = 342 Ferro Max.
• SHD-5M: Stock armor 336. + 3 tons standard = new standard max 304. (Armor of a Centurion AL; best Centurion armor).
  
  • 10.5 tons armor + 3 tons armor set to ferro = 378 Ferro Max.
• KTO-18: Stock armor 352. + 96 new max 448. (Trumps all Shadowhawks in armor.)
  
  • 11 tons of armor + 3 tons set at ferro = 504 Ferro Max.
• Golden Boy: Stock armor 368. + 96 new max 464. (Makes up for lack of speed with high max armor.)
  
  • 11.5 tons of armor + 3 tons set at ferro = 522 Ferro Max.

Ultimately the idea of adding this is to diversify the playing field for more than "Firepower," "Speed," "Firepower and Speed," or Gimped.

It'll now be firepower, speed, armor, firepower and armor, firepower and speed, speed and armor, or a jack in the middle.

(Sorry for all the edits and quotes you probably got.)
(Last edit I swear. Done.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 February 2014 - 11:59 AM.