65 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

So heres a list (more like a dump) of Banshee builds.

Hero La Malinche

LA MALINCHE
Sniper build, hang back and punch people in the CT for Standing in the open (I personally have gotten a top of 900+ damage in a game with this build).

LA MALINCHE
Brawler Build. AC20 and LPL's with MPLs for backup, A 5 ton lighter version of an Atlas D build.

LA MALINCHE
Awesome 8Q build. Run the ERPPCs in chainfire, and LBX is for backup when things get a little hot.





Banshee 3E. The Dakka Master

BNC-3E
BRING ON THE DAKKA!!!!!! 4AC2 Banshee with 4 MPL for close in support when a brawl breaks out.

BNC-3E
Bigger DAKKA!!!! 2 UAC5 2 AC2 4 ML, on the wings of death I bring you pain.

BNC-3E
Splitting the line somewhere between Dakka and Sniper. Its a little light on both ammo for the AC2's and HS for the PPC's but some good piloting skills could make this something of a beast.





Banshee 3M. The laser boat.

BNC-3M
This was a "lets see if it can be done" build and the answer was yes. 8ML all on the STD400 eng and 19DHS to boot. Its the Swayback v2.0

BNC-3M
A simple 1-2 punch. ERPPC's on one side, Slandered PPC's on the other, backed up by 4 MPL's and 18DHS.

BNC-3M
It defies all sanity. 7PPC's and was still able to get 14 DHS. it puts the Awesome to shame.

BNC-3M
Modification of the PPC boat. 4 LPL and 3 ERPPC, 16 DHS.





Banshee 3S. Nothing special here.

BNC-3S
A more normalized build, AC20 and 7 ML for backups with long range poking from the ERPPC in the arm.
Wasn't really able to come up with anything else much better then that one for the 3S. It runs into the same issue the poor LM has with a single Ballistic and missile. Which really boils it down to an AC20 as the best thing to put into that torso.



A good list of some good or crazy builds to take a look at and salivate over before those normal banshee's finally come out.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 07 March 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Personally, I like BNC-3E. Alternatively, move to a more pinpoint/weaker up close version with 2 PPC's instead of 2 LL's.

3 AC5's jackhammer away for gauss rifle strength hits every 1.5s, supported by the energy weapons at comparable ranges blazing away for 18/20 damage. With the Larges, it can fire consistently for 14.25 DPS for 34 seconds without overheating.

[SirLANsalot]

Wintersdark, on 07 March 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

Personally, I like BNC-3E. Alternatively, move to a more pinpoint/weaker up close version with 2 PPC's instead of 2 LL's.

3 AC5's jackhammer away for gauss rifle strength hits every 1.5s, supported by the energy weapons at comparable ranges blazing away for 18/20 damage. With the Larges, it can fire consistently for 14.25 DPS for 34 seconds without overheating.

overpaying in tonnage for a Guass with not that much of a pickup in DPS vs AC2's. This is why the "meta" mechs are so terrible and is why I did not include it in the list. Its stupid and ******** and gets outclassed hardcore by the UAC/AC2 builds.

[Wintersdark]

SirLANsalot, on 07 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

overpaying in tonnage for a Guass with not that much of a pickup in DPS vs AC2's. This is why the "meta" mechs are so terrible and is why I did not include it in the list. Its stupid and ******** and gets outclassed hardcore by the UAC/AC2 builds.

UAC5's offer little value over standard 5's - more tonnage, potentially more burst but unreliability. AC2's are extremely hot for less DPs than 5's.

3 5's puts out very respectable DPs at good range with total reliability and more importantly extremely low heat. This allows the energy weapons to do their work as well.

In a large assault firing torso weaponry, you can't effectively ridge/cover hump, so you really want reliability. You also want sustained damage output in a brawl.

The UAC5 is great for speedy strikers with short engagement windows. The AC2 isn't really that great at all due to the heat and ToT requiremebts., though massed its decent for fire support.

My build is sporting a standard engine rather than an xl, so it can dish damage longer and take a beating too

There is a reason 5's are the darlings of the meta. They synergize best with energy weapons due to the low heat.

[Wintersdark]

SirLANsalot, on 07 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Banshee 3E. The Dakka Master

BNC-3E
BRING ON THE DAKKA!!!!!! 4AC2 Banshee with 4 MPL for close in support when a brawl breaks out.

Now, as you wanted to talk about builds being outclassed.

4AC2's is fine-ish, but triggers ghost heat on already hot weapons. 4MPL? MPL's are objectively bad weapons to start with, eating twice the tonnage of medium lasers and offering less range and just a tiny damage increase - and a tiny damage increase that more often than not you're not going to be able to utilize due to the limited range (basically, you're doing ML damage but paying more heat for it). Worse, you're putting hot close weapons alongside hot ranged weapons. Even worse, you're devoting 8 tons and 4 slots to extreme close range weapons that are going to be hard to use (you'll already be hot from firing ghostheat-penalized AC2's) and stuck alongside an XL engine.

Even worse, you've stacked 4 tons of explosive ammo in your side torsos with that XL engine. That thing is an excessively, uselessly hot coffin.

Quote

BNC-3E
Bigger DAKKA!!!! 2 UAC5 2 AC2 4 ML, on the wings of death I bring you pain.

This is better than the above travesty at least. You've got an absolutely ridiculous amount of ammo, though - if you use that much ammo in a match, you're just doing it wrong. You should be killing far, far faster. Packing that much ammo is both extremely dangerous and wasteful - take less ammo, more DHS, be able to output damage faster. Fire more accurately, kill faster. A standard engine at least ensures you won't spontaneously pop the first time a Spider darts past you.

Quote

BNC-3E
Splitting the line somewhere between Dakka and Sniper. Its a little light on both ammo for the AC2's and HS for the PPC's but some good piloting skills could make this something of a beast.

Again, XL engine, ammo in torsos on a big assault mech = bad idea. Heat is horrendous, with a TTOH of 7 seconds fully elited, assuming you're not firing the Medium Lasers. Yes, I get that you don't just lean on your alpha strike key, but you've built a mech with way too many very hot weapons. You've got this impressive bristling array of weaponry that you can't really utilize, because it's too hot everywhere.


Basically: 3AC5's = roughly the same heat output as ONE AC2.

I'd take my build above (and I don't claim it's the best build possible) against any of these any day, assuming equally skilled pilots. Your builds are all way, way, way too hot to actually inflict much damage unless you hide in a corner and everyone ignores you. Not likely with a 95 ton assault.

[Bishop Steiner]

SirLANsalot, on 07 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

overpaying in tonnage for a Guass with not that much of a pickup in DPS vs AC2's. This is why the "meta" mechs are so terrible and is why I did not include it in the list. Its stupid and ******** and gets outclassed hardcore by the UAC/AC2 builds.

can't fully agree. I dislike Meta, but alpha damage almost always trumps DPS. Especially in a mech with hitboxes as well laid out as the Banshee. DPS takes away your ability to twist and shrug off fire, IF you intend all that DPS to hit in the same location.

It certainly has it's place, and I intend to probably use 2ac5/2ac2 in my 3E as a suppression mech, for variety's sake, but trading it off for 2000 meter pinpoint damage placement and zero heat is hardly a bad build idea, either.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 07 March 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Now, as you wanted to talk about builds being outclassed.

4AC2's is fine-ish, but triggers ghost heat on already hot weapons. 4MPL? MPL's are objectively bad weapons to start with, eating twice the tonnage of medium lasers and offering less range and just a tiny damage increase - and a tiny damage increase that more often than not you're not going to be able to utilize due to the limited range (basically, you're doing ML damage but paying more heat for it). Worse, you're putting hot close weapons alongside hot ranged weapons. Even worse, you're devoting 8 tons and 4 slots to extreme close range weapons that are going to be hard to use (you'll already be hot from firing ghostheat-penalized AC2's) and stuck alongside an XL engine.

Even worse, you've stacked 4 tons of explosive ammo in your side torsos with that XL engine. That thing is an excessively, uselessly hot coffin.

This is better than the above travesty at least. You've got an absolutely ridiculous amount of ammo, though - if you use that much ammo in a match, you're just doing it wrong. You should be killing far, far faster. Packing that much ammo is both extremely dangerous and wasteful - take less ammo, more DHS, be able to output damage faster. Fire more accurately, kill faster. A standard engine at least ensures you won't spontaneously pop the first time a Spider darts past you.

Again, XL engine, ammo in torsos on a big assault mech = bad idea. Heat is horrendous, with a TTOH of 7 seconds fully elited, assuming you're not firing the Medium Lasers. Yes, I get that you don't just lean on your alpha strike key, but you've built a mech with way too many very hot weapons. You've got this impressive bristling array of weaponry that you can't really utilize, because it's too hot everywhere.


Basically: 3AC5's = roughly the same heat output as ONE AC2.

I'd take my build above (and I don't claim it's the best build possible) against any of these any day, assuming equally skilled pilots. Your builds are all way, way, way too hot to actually inflict much damage unless you hide in a corner and everyone ignores you. Not likely with a 95 ton assault.

can't fully agree with you either. Minimum ammo load for pretty much any ballistic is 3 tons per. For one thing, one of the uses of "dakka" dps builds is the value of suppression fire for maneuvering, which is more about volume of fire than accurate damage (though if you can achieve both, even better!). And if my teammate is being that ballistics biased, I much prefer he bring too much ammo than not enough. Nothing worse than watching the end of match, and seeing your only surviving teammate in a totally neutered mech from being out of ammo, doing a slow dance of death with a Hunchback with only it's head laser remaining. (ok, one thing worse..... both remaining mechs having no guns.... that was a loooooooong 9 minutes of ramming each other trying to get it over with)

Also, you are totally wasting the Banshee's potential by not using an XL in most cases (obviously sometimes the weapon loadout won't allow). It has hugely survivable hitboxes, and I regularly bias the armor more rearward than usual because it's so easy to spread frontal damage. 30 ct rear and 20 st rear takes a spider a while to chew thru.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 March 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

can't fully agree. I dislike Meta, but alpha damage almost always trumps DPS. Especially in a mech with hitboxes as well laid out as the Banshee. DPS takes away your ability to twist and shrug off fire, IF you intend all that DPS to hit in the same location.

It certainly has it's place, and I intend to probably use 2ac5/2ac2 in my 3E as a suppression mech, for variety's sake, but trading it off for 2000 meter pinpoint damage placement and zero heat is hardly a bad build idea, either.

2ac5/2ac2 is decent enough. Need better building around those, though, not ammo cuddling up to XL engines in a 95 ton assault mech. I think 3 5's are better once you add the energy weapons as well, because OMGHEAT, but I know the value of 5's and 2's - works well for Jags, after all, and this allows you do to that with more armor and a standard engine.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 March 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

can't fully agree with you either. Minimum ammo load for pretty much any ballistic is 3 tons per. For one thing, one of the uses of "dakka" dps builds is the value of suppression fire for maneuvering, which is more about volume of fire than accurate damage (though if you can achieve both, even better!). And if my teammate is being that ballistics biased, I much prefer he bring too much ammo than not enough. Nothing worse than watching the end of match, and seeing your only surviving teammate in a totally neutered mech from being out of ammo, doing a slow dance of death with a Hunchback with only it's head laser remaining. (ok, one thing worse..... both remaining mechs having no guns.... that was a loooooooong 9 minutes of ramming each other trying to get it over with)

I regularly run 2 tons per gun, and almost never have ammo issues - I'm just running out at the end of long matches, but in that case my build up top sported a pair of Large Lasers as backup weapons - that's not slowdance of death armament

You're looking at 150 damage per ton. You should be getting a kill per 300 tops, IMHO - I understand the value of suppression fire, don't get me wrong, but 300 damage is a lot of damage without a kill. Of course, I don't necessarily mean scoreboard registered kills, as anyone may well get that kill, but you should have at least one kill per 300 damage fired. Otherwise, maybe consider energy based suppression instead? Packing 12 tons of ammo is just absurd, that's 1800 damage worth. When the mechs in question are sporting such sustained fire times at 7 seconds to overheat, you're not suppressing much.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 07 March 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I regularly run 2 tons per gun, and almost never have ammo issues - I'm just running out at the end of long matches, but in that case my build up top sported a pair of Large Lasers as backup weapons - that's not slowdance of death armament

You're looking at 150 damage per ton. You should be getting a kill per 300 tops, IMHO - I understand the value of suppression fire, don't get me wrong, but 300 damage is a lot of damage without a kill. Of course, I don't necessarily mean scoreboard registered kills, as anyone may well get that kill, but you should have at least one kill per 300 damage fired. Otherwise, maybe consider energy based suppression instead? Packing 12 tons of ammo is just absurd, that's 1800 damage worth. When the mechs in question are sporting such sustained fire times at 7 seconds to overheat, you're not suppressing much.

then you'd probably consider the 105 rounds my dual ac10 Ilya packs ludicrous..... yet I regularly run dry by the end of long matches. Of course...I also not too uncommonly do 1000 damage in that mech...... (though 800 is more the norm for a "good" match, with about 4-5 kills)

[SirLANsalot]

Wintersdark, on 07 March 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

Now, as you wanted to talk about builds being outclassed.

4AC2's is fine-ish, but triggers ghost heat on already hot weapons. 4MPL? MPL's are objectively bad weapons to start with, eating twice the tonnage of medium lasers and offering less range and just a tiny damage increase - and a tiny damage increase that more often than not you're not going to be able to utilize due to the limited range (basically, you're doing ML damage but paying more heat for it). Worse, you're putting hot close weapons alongside hot ranged weapons. Even worse, you're devoting 8 tons and 4 slots to extreme close range weapons that are going to be hard to use (you'll already be hot from firing ghostheat-penalized AC2's) and stuck alongside an XL engine.

Even worse, you've stacked 4 tons of explosive ammo in your side torsos with that XL engine. That thing is an excessively, uselessly hot coffin.

with an XL eng, CASE doesn't help you any at all since if your at that point where ammo is getting critted, your practically dead already.
4AC2 is on the edge of the ghost heat, so the penalty doesn't hit you to where its noticeable at all. Hell 6 AC2 on the Jager barely notices the heat penalty. Fire Control is key when working with the Ghost heat system and that 4 AC2 build was more or less kinda a silly build. Its a "because I can" build.

Also MPLs are WONDERFUL guns now due to being a 200m opti now, there DPS is good, plus they frontload there damage more-so then the ML dose. When building mechs I usually try for MPL first before downgrading them into ML if I need the tonnage for other things.

Do note that many of the builds have NO CRITS LEFT for swapping a ton of ammo for another DHS, due to Endo Steel. Usueally I do not like using Endo and an XL eng on an assault mech, but the Banshee can get away with it since there are no guns on most of the varients.

Quote

This is better than the above travesty at least. You've got an absolutely ridiculous amount of ammo, though - if you use that much ammo in a match, you're just doing it wrong. You should be killing far, far faster. Packing that much ammo is both extremely dangerous and wasteful - take less ammo, more DHS, be able to output damage faster. Fire more accurately, kill faster. A standard engine at least ensures you won't spontaneously pop the first time a Spider darts past you.

You didn't pay attention to the build then. CASE in the torso with all the ammo for that VERY reason. Those guns are Ammo hungry guns and yes it is about 2 tons more AC2 ammo then needed for 2 AC2 but crit limitations did not allow for any more DHS.

Quote

Again, XL engine, ammo in torsos on a big assault mech = bad idea. Heat is horrendous, with a TTOH of 7 seconds fully elited, assuming you're not firing the Medium Lasers. Yes, I get that you don't just lean on your alpha strike key, but you've built a mech with way too many very hot weapons. You've got this impressive bristling array of weaponry that you can't really utilize, because it's too hot everywhere.

Missed the point of the fact it was another "can it be done" mechs. I did not say all the builds I was putting out would be effective, and at the end of the post some were classed as "crazy" builds....this is one of them. Despite that it would be interesting to run just to take it out for a test spin. A mix of alpha guns (PPC) and DPS guns (UAC/AC2) is something not many mechs can accomplish due to hardpoints or tonnage.

Quote

Basically: 3AC5's = roughly the same heat output as ONE AC2.

I'd take my build above (and I don't claim it's the best build possible) against any of these any day, assuming equally skilled pilots. Your builds are all way, way, way too hot to actually inflict much damage unless you hide in a corner and everyone ignores you. Not likely with a 95 ton assault.

This is why META mechs must die and I will always prioritize them first whenever I see them. By teaching nooblets like you that doing something that stupid is why you died.

The AC5 is a gun that rides the line between Alpha and DPS, and you cannot have it both ways without succumbing to better guns that do one or the other better. If you want the Alpha part, then the AC10 or Gauss is better in both the damage and in the tonnage/crit savings. If you want DPS, then running a UAC along side an AC5 or twin UAC will do that job better then just solo AC5's. The only mech that can properly (currently) boat the AC5 to where other guns cannot compete is the CTF-4X. If the hardpoints on the Bashee were spread out instead of all one torso then there would be an argument for boating multiple AC5 like the 4X dose. However this is all packed into one toso, which eliminates some things, like AC5's from the equation. The UAC is a weapon made to replace the AC5 (lore) and in this game it dose a very good job of that too as the risk of jamming outweighs the reward of the DPS. (AC5 3.33 DPS UAC5 6.66DPS during double shot) This is why Attali running Twin UAC5's are so dangerous, an 18 ton AC20 that can crank out some crazy DPS, and if one jams, the other usually keeps on going. This is also why the BLR-1D is so strong running a UAC5 and 2 AC2, the AC2s cover when the UAC jams, meaning your constatnly pouring out damage even when a weapon jams.



On a side note. AC2 3.85 DPS, higher then the AC5 and 2 tons 3 crits lighter.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gauss -> Less than 4 DPS with a charging time.
3 AC/5 -> 10DPS with no charging time

Yup, only a very stupid person would do 3 AC/5, and it has no place being presented in this thread. This thread is only for the extremely intelligent XL-Assault pilots.

[SirLANsalot]

Prosperity Park, on 07 March 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Gauss -> Less than 4 DPS with a charging time.
3 AC/5 -> 10DPS with no charging time

Yup, only a very stupid person would do 3 AC/5, and it has no place being presented in this thread. This thread is only for the extremely intelligent XL-Assault pilots.

If you want to throw DPS at me, then AC2's are better in DPS then AC5's.

If you want Alpha, then the Gauss is better then 3 AC5's (or the AC10 better then 2 AC5).

Either way, the multi AC5 (under 4) is out DPSed or out gunned by weapons that are lighter.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 07 March 2014 - 09:27 PM.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 07 March 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Gauss -> Less than 4 DPS with a charging time.
3 AC/5 -> 10DPS with no charging time

Yup, only a very stupid person would do 3 AC/5, and it has no place being presented in this thread. This thread is only for the extremely intelligent XL-Assault pilots.

3 AC/5 weighs 24 tons minimum and requires a lot of ammo (something like 2-3 tons per gun). The Gauss is a 15 ton weapon that typically needs 3 tons per gun. Seeing that huge weight investment of the triple AC/5, of course it's going to have better raw stats. That's the point of putting in the extra weight. The only time a smaller mass of weapons should out-damage a larger mass of weapons is when those lighter weapons are specifically short-ranged (like SRMs) and those heavier weapons are specialized long range (like LRMs, PPCs, etc.)...but the Gauss isn't short range. It's long range--slightly longer range than the AC/5 in fact.

Edited by FupDup, 07 March 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SirLANsalot, on 07 March 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

If you want Alpha, then the Gauss is better then 3 AC5's (or the AC10 better then 2 AC5).

not really. With MWO's convergence, 3 ac5 on group fire are going to land those 15 pts (same as the Gauss) in the same locale, same time. And it recharges one heck of a lot faster. Of course the trade off is 9 more tons of mass, at least 3 more tons of ammo, and realistically, 6 more tons, less range, slower projectile and of course, more heat. Oh, and triple ac5 takes 12 crits, meaning no XL.

So, as a premier alpha sniping weapon, the Gauss is king, as it reaches it's max range in 1 second, and well kitted comes to 18 tons with no mentionable heat. And has room for an XL and 2 slots left over for ammo to crit pad.

For mid range, sniping and suppression, and up close brawling the triple 5 wins out on raw stats, but at the expense of all the above listed .

Over 20 seconds of firing (lab conditions, all hits, etc)
Gauss: 5 shots, 75 damage, 5 heat. (max range 1980 meters, projectile speed 2000 m/s, total mass 15 tons weapons, 3 tons ammo (18 tons) 10 crit spaces)
3x AC5: 12 shots each, 180 damage (in 15 pt clusters), 36 heat. (max range 1800 meters, projectile speed 1300 m/s, total mass 24 tons weapons, 9 tons ammo (33 tons), 12 crit spaces)

[Corvus Antaka]

triple ac/5 and dual PPC is gonna be really nasty.

[Wintersdark]

SirLANsalot, the issue you keep skirting is heat. Sure, the ac2 has a .52dps advantage, but it suffers a truly massive 1.3ish HPS penalty for that assuming no ghost heat.

The BNC3E is not just a ballistic platform - and this is where my complaints laid. Your builds are all far too hot to utilize the energy weapons as well as the ballistics. My 5's, though, fire comfortably alongside large lasers or PPC's offering higher front loaded damage close and at range, as well as higher DPS.


And yes, obviously I know that CASE wouldn't help in the XL cases. I never suggested you should take it.

What I saaid was taking an XL in a large, slow assault, and then packing the torsos with 4 tons of ammo on top of that, was a tragically terrible design choice. Its just a flat out bad build.

I can accept that these are just "because I can" builds rather than good builds, but then don't you think your initial response to me (note that I hadn't said a word about your builds in my first post), that they somehow outclassed my build was a little odd? Given we're just talking about because we can builds?

Being offended because a build is more "meta" is fair enough, but that doesn't make it bad. If you want to criticize the build feel free (note mine has LL's - it'd need PPC's to be a meta build) but make valid criticisms, not just "Durr meta bad" because its packing AC5's.

2 5's and 2 2's is perfectly viable. I didn't object to your two uac5 and 2 ac2 either, remember. Just how you put the rest of the builds together making them deathtraps.

Edited by Wintersdark, 07 March 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 07 March 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

triple ac/5 and dual PPC is gonna be really nasty.

want DPS?
BNC-3E
nearly double what the ac5s and PPCs can lay out, while running cooler and a whole lot faster.
BNC-3E

I know, I know.... I AM an evil genius.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 March 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

or do we prefer an "optimized" Competitive Build?
BNC-3E

[Varent]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0f8dce384b21b1d