50 replies to this topic

[KageRyuu]

Just talking attrition, you'd need just over a 1.6 tons of AMS ammo to counter each ton of LRM, and to completely nullify a single LRM 20, you'd need 7 AMS. So 7 AMS and 14 tons of ammo will counter a single 10 ton LRM 20 with a single ton of ammo. 21 tons spent to nullify 11 tons. Doesn't sound too bad? Well you just used about 2/3 your average AMS capacity to counter 1/12 their potential, not to mention the more ammo he carries, the exponentially worse the weight ratio becomes.

Compare that to the ECM, a single ECM can protect the entire team if they are bunched up, 1.5 tons, doesn't use ammo, and forces the enemy to use Tag, ECM of their own, or a lucky PPC shot if they so much as want to target you, and doesn't rely on ammo. When used with cover and general awareness there shouldn't be a need for anything else to either snipe or sneak up on the enemy nullifying LRMs completely.

But ECM has a down side, currently only 5 mechs (not including Clan mechs, because frankly they shouldn't have access to it at all) can carry it which limits it's deployment. There is a solution, albeit for the individual, the Radar Deprivation module which causes the enemy to instantly lose lock when they lose LOS of you. You could call it the poor man's ECM, but it costs 15,000 GXP and another 6,000,000 Cbills to buy, so I won't even suggest it's a "poor man's" replacement in any way. It does have the boon that ECM and PPCs don't nullify it, but it requires breaking LOS, which doesn't help out in the open or against sneaky spotters unless your fairly fast.

Still, compared to these other solutions AMS are anemic, a drop in the bucket and more often than not better avoided for more effective solutions.

And don't even get me started on the AMS modules... 8-16+ meter range and 10% faster ROF. 8-16+ meters offers no benefit for a stationary target, still only knocks down 3 missiles as the AMS will only target a new missile every .5 seconds, and it takes a little over .285 seconds to destroy the missile, which move 120m/s over the 200-216m range, while on average a target moving at 70kph (since that speed seems to get thrown around a lot), reduces the speed of the missiles by 19.4m/s down to 100.6 and thus still only shoots down 3 missiles, with an extra 16 you still only shoot down 3 missiles. To get any benefit out of the +8m range increase you'd need to travel 191kph, while with the +16m you'd only need to travel 181kph. Absolutely worthless.

As for the increase to ROF, ROF isn't the key issue, it's the .5 second target delay, if AMS could target a missile as fast as it could destroy them, which honestly shouldn't be that hard as they fly in a swarm, it'd be 3x as effective and maybe worth taking, as is, all a 10% ROF increase does is knock the .285 second target destruction down to a .259 second target destruction, which does you little good unless you combine it with the range increase and can run 108kph, in which case you've defeated 1 extra missile. Woohooo.

And before you ask, you'd have to travel over 240kph to kill a 5th missile, which isn't possible as far as I'm aware.

Then add to the fact that the AMS Overdrive alone costs 10,000GPX and 6,000,000 Cbills, while the AMS range increase 750x2GPX and likely 8,000,000 Cbills for the second upgrade, you are paying 1000 times the cost to increase the effectiveness a minuscule amount for only the fastest mechs out there. Really with the costs involved Overdrive should remove the target delay entirely, while the range increase should at most double the range for it to really be worth considering. Till then the AMS modules, and AMS itself is highly niche, so specialized in fact as to be redundant or straight out unnecessary.

Edited by KageRyuu, 07 July 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Just wanna play]

^^^thats actually not really right, 1 ams shoots down about 4 lrms on average (unless those clanners are really peeing....missiles), and that .5 second delay in between locks on lrm...yeah they just removed it recently but you are right, per ton ams ammo shoots down less then one ton of lrms, BUT the ams it self is lighter then the lrm launcher it will be removing from play. All in All, low ammo counts just means you are making more efficient use of your tonnage (ASSUMING you are actually making good use of it) then the enemy. medium amounts of ammo you are matching your damage reduction total to their total damage out put. High amount of ammo you are just plain trying to get those lrm users to sit down and shut up, also dont forget to think about situation when you arent the target of lrms, if you are a certain distance in front of the target and have multiple ams, those modules are VERY nice (if you have the ammo.....)

Let me just post a summary from my ams guide:
1 ams will destroy about 4 lrms and more if they are a big clanner stream (which i like to call indirect fire lasers). 1 ams CAN destroy 1 srm. Longer salvos, such as when you do not have enough tubes, does not mean double or triple the amount of missiles shot down, the missiles aren't far apart enough for that to happen. 1 ams Will destroy 1 streak So basically when deciding if you should bring it Ams weighs .5 tons and destroys 4 missiles while an lrm 5 weighs TWO tons and fires 5 missiles so ams is relatively efficient use of tonnage as the damage reduction is better then the out put of what it counters for the same weight. More then anything ams modules are a good way to get spare rounds of ams that tend to be left over in a match used, but if you already run out normally your ammo amount is the limiter, not the system

Edited by Just wanna play, 07 July 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Every single mech i own carries an ams. Been doing that for about a year now. The only one that doesn't is my ecm spider and thats for tonnage purposes. I feel it is useful. It is the sole reason i bought stalker 5s, atlas k, and that one thunderbolt. Ams is great imo (could be much better if it actually shot more than 5 lurms per salvo). It has saved me a few times from getting lurmed to death and in the midst of a small lurmaggedon we need it now.

[Macksheen]

Massed AMS is great. That said, if you know the meta, it could be a less-than-useful investment.

Standard public matches (group or not) tend to feature more LRMs than most of the tournaments I've watched, for instance. I would think twice about bringing AMS to one of those matches, but in the general public world - massed AMS rocks. If you are dropping with a group and everyone brings one - that's mass - just as having multiple AMS running on just a few mechs - either works, and depends on your meta-structure.

[Escef]

KageRyuu, on 07 July 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

But ECM has a down side, currently only 5 mechs (not including Clan mechs, because frankly they shouldn't have access to it at all) ...

Why not?

[KageRyuu]

Just wanna play, on 07 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

^^^thats actually not really right, 1 ams shoots down about 4 lrms on average (unless those clanners are really peeing....missiles), and that .5 second delay in between locks on lrm...yeah they just removed it recently but you are right, per ton ams ammo shoots down less then one ton of lrms, BUT the ams it self is lighter then the lrm launcher it will be removing from play. All in All, low ammo counts just means you are making more efficient use of your tonnage (ASSUMING you are actually making good use of it) then the enemy. medium amounts of ammo you are matching your damage reduction total to their total damage out put. High amount of ammo you are just plain trying to get those lrm users to sit down and shut up, also dont forget to think about situation when you arent the target of lrms, if you are a certain distance in front of the target and have multiple ams, those modules are VERY nice (if you have the ammo.....)

Let me just post a summary from my ams guide:
1 ams will destroy about 4 lrms and more if they are a big clanner stream (which i like to call indirect fire lasers). 1 ams CAN destroy 1 srm. Longer salvos, such as when you do not have enough tubes, does not mean double or triple the amount of missiles shot down, the missiles aren't far apart enough for that to happen. 1 ams Will destroy 1 streak So basically when deciding if you should bring it Ams weighs .5 tons and destroys 4 missiles while an lrm 5 weighs TWO tons and fires 5 missiles so ams is relatively efficient use of tonnage as the damage reduction is better then the out put of what it counters for the same weight. More then anything ams modules are a good way to get spare rounds of ams that tend to be left over in a match used, but if you already run out normally your ammo amount is the limiter, not the system

I doubt they removed the target lock time if you're supposedly only shooting down four missiles. Regardless I just said that you needed 7 AMS with 2 tons of ammo each to nullify a single LRM 20 with a single ton of ammo, 2.5 x 7= 21 tons for the AMS, 10+1=11 tons for the LRM 20. Not a favorable situation for AMS.

Also, AMS against Streaks or SRMs is 1-2 missiles per volley at best, those missiles travel faster than LRMs, and that's assuming they fire outside of 200m which most don't so you often don't even stop a single SRM given the point blank ranges they are often used at.

Escef, on 07 July 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Why not?

If you have to ask, you shouldn't play Clan, especially when community warfare is implemented. But to put it simply, Clan see ECM or any form of cover as cowardly. They also prefer 1v1 duels, even in larger battles, and run 10 man Binaries consisting of two 5 man Stars, not 12 man Companies consisting of three 4 man Lances. That's assuming PGI decides to keep with the lore when it's time for this game to become more than the sum of it's parts.

Edited by KageRyuu, 08 July 2014 - 02:31 AM.

[Escef]

KageRyuu, on 08 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

If you have to ask, you shouldn't play Clan, especially when community warfare is implemented. But to put it simply, Clan see ECM or any form of cover as cowardly.

No, the clans see not using cover the same way everyone else does: idiocy. Numerous clan mechs use ECM, including the Hellbringer Prime, the second most common heavy amongst the Jade Falcons, who happen to be one of the most traditionalist clans. And as one moves forward in the timeline you don't see ECM being left by the wayside by the clans.

Seems to me that what you are saying is the clan way is more your own flawed interpretation of the clans. I mean, for a piece of equipment you say the clans view as cowardly, you see it on a BUNCH of their frontline mechs, including the Prime configurations of a few.

[Just wanna play]

KageRyuu, on 08 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

I doubt they removed the target lock time if you're supposedly only shooting down four missiles.

Before they did it was 2 missiles per ams

[Mad Ox]

Well AMS = Ablative Armor in my book the longer it runs the more effective it is.

Doing a comparison

1 AMS + 1 Ton ammo (1000 IS/ 2000 Clan) = 1.5 tons = 48 armor Standard IS/Clan or 53.76 Ferro IS or 57.6 Ferro Clan.

using http://mwo.gamepedia..._Missile_System as a basis ignoring all the billion variables at best we get.

vs LRM = 3 missiles killed with 27 ammo used. So IS with 1 ton ammo could potentially destroy 40 damage worth of missiles (LRM do 1.1 damage each= (1000/27)*1.1 = 40...). Clan with 1 ton could potentially destroy (2000/27)*1.1 = 81 damage worth of missiles. Inner Sphere get a touch screw but still its effectively 40 more armor they gain assuming mech is maxed armor

vs SRM = 1 missile about 9 ammo used. IS with 1 ton of ammo could destroy 222 damage worth of SRM's (111 SRM missiles each does 2 damage) Clan with 1 tons could destroy 444 damage worth of SRM's (222 SRM missiles each does 2 damage)

vs SSRM = Slower flying then SRM so should be able to get about 2 per volley

vs NARC = with enough range Narc is destroyed. How effective this is varies but being on the receiving end of NARC attacks and there subsequent LRM storms destroying a NARC is very very very recommended.

In the end these are all basic situations no moving no cover max range etc so most likely never reach the max listed but even still unless fighting laser or cannon armed mechs and nothing else the AMS does a decent job of adding to your life span. on mech with a bit of space to spare silly not to use them. Personally At Close to Medium range hard not too take. At long range personal preference

[xeromynd]

Personally, I don't run AMS on anything I own. However:
-I don't pilot any mechs with DUAL AMS
-All of my builds usually go at least 80kph, and I use hard cover when targeted.
-I torso twist when the missiles start flying.

I'd stick more weaponry or a larger engine in my build before AMS any day,

[Talsha]

AMS is not primarily a point defense anti missile system for the individual mech carrying it.
AMS It is a force multiplier that works in numbers as a theater missile defense shield.
It should be mounted on every Heavy and Assault Mech.
With the tonnage available in these classes, there are systems with providing an equal force contribution for the same 1.5 tons.
On Mediums and lights mounting AMS is a more complex decision.
Pilots not mounting AMS without a valid reasons put their team at a disadvantage.
Its so simple.