134 replies to this topic

[Master Maniac]

Lyoto Machida, on 25 March 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Oh...I'm sure the LRM patch last week explains why poptarts have ruled the field for at least half a year.

Troll harder.

LRMs have always been broken, no-skill weapons, and the patch just made it *worse.*

Fail more.

EDIT: And I'm not even saying that *all* poptarting comes from a lack of better options - some people do it just to do it. But with the *narrowing* of their options, Assault pilots have to do whatever they can do to avoid being instantly marked for death by the other team's LRM200's. Poptarting is one of those options.

A lot of you people hate poptarting not because it's particularly lethal or effective, but because it's hard to hit jumpers with your LRMs. This is what I find most delicious of all.

Edited by Master Maniac, 25 March 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[_____]

I've to disagree here. Ballistics are still king, this patch just makes chassis with no ballistics slots slightly more viable. Leads to more variety in the game.

Looking at solo drops only, if you think about it, before the patch, LRMs are effectively medium range weapons at best and more often short range weapons. 500m out, the target has 4 seconds to get behind cover. Given how much cover there is in all of the MWO maps, this is plenty of time. The missile category had no real long range weapons. So you'll see maybe 2 or maybe 3 players on each side carry LRMs on average. How many carry PPC, ERPPC, LL or ERLL? Probably more than half the team. How many carry mid to long range ballistics, like AC2/5/10/UAC5, probably more than half the team also. Now in my last couple of days of playing, I see maybe a net gain of 1 or maybe 2 LRM users per side. It's hardly game changing.

[Gyrok]

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

You're right. Guided Indirect weapons are superior. They are superior in real life too for killing armored targets. Anything that can kill without exposing yourself is by very definition, superior. ACs should not be the premier weapon of the game, but that makes for a realistic, but boring game to play. Even as an LRM pilot I recognize that.

On the other hand, long range direct fire weapons are now artificially enhanced to the king of this hill. Short range weapons cannot compete with them. Never have never will unless you artificially make them so superior they cannot be ignored. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight unless you know you can get in close and deal with the long range weapons while minimizing risk.

Some people don't want reality, they want a stylized experience where LRMs are flavor text, others want a simulator that does not alter gameplay but accurately represents weapon/loadout ability whatever that may be. Right now, both of these are in conflict and the fantasy is winning.

Hi, as much as you might think LRMs are superior in reality...they are not.

Modern LRMs that do the level of damage we are talking about must be fired at a target that is painted with a laser (cruise missles/guided weapons)...or they are for anti air assets and lock targets via radar (AAM/SAM) or heat signature (AAM). Additionally, if you want to cite weapons that are blind fired from across the world as an example (ICBM) those too, are guided by a tracking system using a complex satellite guidance network that took YEARS and TRILLIONS of dollars to put in place.

So, your examples are not particularly supporting of your point of view in the matter. Additionally, margin for error with guidance based systems, as opposed to laser guided systems is an order of magnitude higher. If you want a weapon to hit a laser painted target, it will hit within a few feet of where you paint the target with the laser. If you fire from half way around the world at new york with satellite based systems, you are just as likely to strike south manhattan as you are north manhattan...however, with weapons of that magnitude, a few miles makes no difference. The impact in such cases is always "close enough for government work" when you have a 40 mile radius of 100% casualty from 1 weapon.

Therefore, I would like to propose an order of magnitude difference in accuracy from blind fired weapons to mimick real life...you might hit that atlas in the forehead from 800m blind firing...you might also hit something else...another mech...an ally...nothing at all.

Still like the "reality" LRMs bring to the table? I did not think you would...

Edited by Gyrok, 25 March 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

LRMs have always been broken, no-skill weapons, and the patch just made it *worse.*

Fail more.

You know, if all you can do is post in a snotty and insulting manner, you'll get absolutely nobody on your side. Learn to speak with some civility before you venture out into society. Nobody deserves this "fail more" crap.

FWIW, assaults were poptarting long before the LRM patch.

[vectorpirate]

Lurms have gone up and down before. When the compromise of taking them down to 160m/s happens they will probably return to being a useful but not match-winning weapon and pilots on both sides will need to adjust tactics a bit.

BlackhawkSC, on 25 March 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

I've to disagree here. Ballistics are still king, this patch just makes chassis with no ballistics slots slightly more viable. Leads to more variety in the game.

Looking at solo drops only, if you think about it, before the patch, LRMs are effectively medium range weapons at best and more often short range weapons. 500m out, the target has 4 seconds to get behind cover. Given how much cover there is in all of the MWO maps, this is plenty of time. The missile category had no real long range weapons. So you'll see maybe 2 or maybe 3 players on each side carry LRMs on average. How many carry PPC, ERPPC, LL or ERLL? Probably more than half the team. How many carry mid to long range ballistics, like AC2/5/10/UAC5, probably more than half the team also. Now in my last couple of days of playing, I see maybe a net gain of 1 or maybe 2 LRM users per side. It's hardly game changing.

I agree. The patch did not change damage at all, it just reduced the time you have to get under cover. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing, there should be a significantly longer delay for missiles compared to instantaneous lasers or very short delay ballistics, but it's not a huge change. They are meant to be used with different tactics. Pilots will adjust and the game will even out again without more messing about by PGI.

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

We don't *need* this hamfisted attempt at "balance."

Hamfisted is a great word

Edited by vectorpirate, 25 March 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Master Maniac]

Rebas Kradd, on 25 March 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

You know, if all you can do is post in a snotty and insulting manner, you'll get absolutely nobody on your side. Learn to speak with some civility before you venture out into society. Nobody deserves this "fail more" crap.

FWIW, assaults were poptarting long before the LRM patch.

He called me a troll, so I responded in kind. Don't be ridiculous.

EDIT: Yes, and LRMs were spamming assaults to death long before the LRM patch, too. The patch just made it easier to hit your fish in the barrel. Assaults complained about how easy it was to spam to death, and gleeful missile users responded with snide "you suck, learn to play, use cover" remarks.

So, assaults learned to use cover. Since assaults who break cover are instantly lit up by massive flights of missiles with omniscient homing capability, those that can often choose to sit back and poptart instead, thinking to themselves, "Learn to use cover? I've got your cover right HERE, pal."

LRM players, so chastised, commenced their rage.

Here we are today.

Edited by Master Maniac, 25 March 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

So nobody uses light mechs now? Mediums? Heavies? Every match is just Atlases pounding each other? What game are you playing? It's not the same one that I've been playing for about a year. Because in the game I've been playing, people pilot mechs that suit their playstyle, or just tickle their fancy. Lights and mediums are everywhere as it is, as are asymmetrical heavies with crazy, unique builds.

We don't *need* this hamfisted attempt at "balance."

And yeah, people should be able to "drive whatever mech they want" because a lot of us paid for that mech with real money.

Besides, with the way this game currently plays, no class of mech is inherently better than the others (although assaults are well on their way onto being nerfed into complete LRM-soaking uselessness). There is no need to just arbitrarily limit what players can and can't join matches with. It's silly, artificial, and just plain not fun.

I have to add in here. currently the heavy/assault onslaught is ridiculous.Quite avrfew of my unit have quit playing-FULL STOP due to the constant mis matching of weight between teams. What follows below is my games from a 48 hour period:


L=2 M=0 H=6 A=4
L=1 M=0 H=8 A=3
L=0 M=3 H=6 A=3
L=1 M=3 H=5 A=3
L=0 M=2 H=4 A=6
L=2 M=2 H=2 A=6
L=0 M=1 H=7 A=4
L=3 M=5 H=2 A=2
L=5 M=3 H=2 A=2
L=1 M=3 H=3 A=5
L=1 M=5 H=1 A=5
L=3 M=1 H=5 A=3
L=3 M=2 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=1 H=4 A=6
L=1 M=1 H=3 A=7
L=1 M=3 H=3 A=5
L=2 M=3 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=2 H=0 A=9
L=3 M=2 H=3 A=4
L=0 M=2 H=4 A=6
L=1 M=4 H=1 A=6
L=2 M=4 H=4 A=2
L=2 M=6 H=0 A=4
L=4 M=4 H=0 A=4
L=1 M=3 H=5 A=3
L=4 M=2 H=2 A=4
L=3 M=0 H=5 A=4
L=2 M=3 H=2 A=5
L=4 M=4 H=3 A=1
L=1 M=1 H=8 A=2
L=2 M=3 H=3 A=4
L=1 M=2 H=7 A=2
L=3 M=2 H=5 A=2
L=3 M=3 H=3 A=3
L=1 M=2 H=3 A=6
L=2 M=4 H=3 A=3
L=4 M=2 H=4 A=2
L=4 M=1 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=1 H=8 A=2
L=0 M=3 H=6 A=3
L=2 M=1 H=5 A=4
L=3 M=3 H=2 A=4
L=0 M=0 H=7 A=5
L=3 M=3 H=5 A=1
L=1 M=2 H=6 A=3


Light mechs=85
Medium mechs=107
Heavy mechs=178
Assault mechs=169


Yes we do need this hamfisted attempt at balance. Play a medium? Bring the vaseline son-in the world of 80kph+ assault mechs.
Just LOOK at some of these games will you?

Edited by kamiko kross, 25 March 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Master Maniac]

kamiko kross, on 25 March 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

I have to add in here. currently the heavy/assault onslaught is ridiculous.Quite avrfew of my unit have quit playing-FULL STOP due to the constant mis matching of weight between teams. What follows below is my games from a 48 hour period:


L=2 M=0 H=6 A=4
L=1 M=0 H=8 A=3
L=0 M=3 H=6 A=3
L=1 M=3 H=5 A=3
L=0 M=2 H=4 A=6
L=2 M=2 H=2 A=6
L=0 M=1 H=7 A=4
L=3 M=5 H=2 A=2
L=5 M=3 H=2 A=2
L=1 M=3 H=3 A=5
L=1 M=5 H=1 A=5
L=3 M=1 H=5 A=3
L=3 M=2 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=1 H=4 A=6
L=1 M=1 H=3 A=7
L=1 M=3 H=3 A=5
L=2 M=3 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=2 H=0 A=9
L=3 M=2 H=3 A=4
L=0 M=2 H=4 A=6
L=1 M=4 H=1 A=6
L=2 M=4 H=4 A=2
L=2 M=6 H=0 A=4
L=4 M=4 H=0 A=4
L=1 M=3 H=5 A=3
L=4 M=2 H=2 A=4
L=3 M=0 H=5 A=4
L=2 M=3 H=2 A=5
L=4 M=4 H=3 A=1
L=1 M=1 H=8 A=2
L=2 M=3 H=3 A=4
L=1 M=2 H=7 A=2
L=3 M=2 H=5 A=2
L=3 M=3 H=3 A=3
L=1 M=2 H=3 A=6
L=2 M=4 H=3 A=3
L=4 M=2 H=4 A=2
L=4 M=1 H=5 A=2
L=1 M=1 H=8 A=2
L=0 M=3 H=6 A=3
L=2 M=1 H=5 A=4
L=3 M=3 H=2 A=4
L=0 M=0 H=7 A=5
L=3 M=3 H=5 A=1
L=1 M=2 H=6 A=3


Light mechs=85
Medium mechs=107
Heavy mechs=178
Assault mechs=169


Yes we do need this hamfisted attempt at balance. Play a medium? Bring the vaseline son-in the world of 80kph+ assault mechs.
Just LOOK at some of these games will you?

Yeah. I play a medium all the time. Won the Blackjack tourney with it, in fact.

I own two Atlas mechs. Barely ever touch them because I get sick of getting plastered to death by LRMs. And are you seriously advocating that not enough people play light? REALLY? Because last I checked, Spiders and Ravens were a fixture of every match, often operating in coordinated lances, and thanks to hit detection are an enormously overblown threat to heavy and assault mechs.

[Rebas Kradd]

Guys, how much of this is simply people's curiosity towards the new LRMs? A lot of it has died off already in the last three days. And Paul has stated that LRM speed and cockpit shake are taking a step back. This situation isn't static...

Also, another reason mediums are great is because they make great bugzappers. Lights hate my 2ML/3SSRM/LB 10-X AC Centurion.

[Lyoto Machida]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

He called me a troll, so I responded in kind. Don't be ridiculous.

EDIT: Yes, and LRMs were spamming assaults to death long before the LRM patch, too. The patch just made it easier to hit your fish in the barrel. Assaults complained about how easy it was to spam to death, and gleeful missile users responded with snide "you suck, learn to play, use cover" remarks.

So, assaults learned to use cover. Since assaults who break cover are instantly lit up by massive flights of missiles with omniscient homing capability, those that can often choose to sit back and poptart instead, thinking to themselves, "Learn to use cover? I've got your cover right HERE, pal."

LRM players, so chastised, commenced their rage.

Here we are today.

You're either a troll, a liar or misinformed...there's no other explanation for your post.

I'm sure you played plenty of 12 mans and saw all the LRM teams wrecking shop over the past year, amirite?

[Gas Guzzler]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

- Ballistics *need* a recoil mechanic - reticule shake, torso twist, something. Anything. Because as it is now, AC/2's and AC/5's are just as skill-free as LRMs when up close.

I don't know about this. If you try to stand there and throw AC2s/AC5s at someone 200m away you get cored pretty quickly. Like really, AC2s are not good at short range because you have to face your target the whole time making your CT very vulnerable. To say no skill is required to use them well is a stretch I think.

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

LRMs have always been broken, no-skill weapons, and the patch just made it *worse.*

I once thought as you do. Since the patch, LRMs actually became useful as a support weapon on a non-LRM boat mech, so I have been playing with them some, and man, the difference in damage spread with and without tag is just amazing. Without tag (even with artemis) I would watch the paper doll after the LRM hit, and it would light up a few components equally, nothing really spectacular. But if you manage to paint them with tag, much more damage would show up in the CT. My point is that LRMs are not that effective without some applied skill and positioning and LoS (for tag), unless they are being boated. Yes having hundreds of missiles raining down on you the second you leave cover really sucks and I hate it, but just remember that those LRM boats are making a huge trade-off. They are almost worthless at close range.

It will be interesting to see how things are when they reduce speed back to 160 m/s.

All in all I think as a community we should focus on improving the underpowered weapons rather then nerfing ACs and LRMs. Fix SRMs, and make laser boating more viable and more fun (increasing ghost heat threshold for LLs and LPLs would be a great start! And maybe even a slight decrease in heat for the ML and MPL), and then see what kind of game we have.

[Novakaine]

Well lets give a victory clap for the brainless.
Who wouldn't know what a tactic was even if someone dipped a wet towel in it and slap them in the face.
For the cheesemongers who build the latest cheesy builds, and are now mad they can't use it untouched.
For the alpha clowns who love to ram their mechs into another player and do just that.
Oh and lest not forget our friendly poptarders, who slink behind rocks head shot other players then have
the nerve to type "gg" at the end of a match.
Way to go so much for intelligence nowadays I guess.
Clap Clap Clap.

[Kjudoon]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

LRMs have always been broken, no-skill weapons, and the patch just made it *worse.*

Fail more.

EDIT: And I'm not even saying that *all* poptarting comes from a lack of better options - some people do it just to do it. But with the *narrowing* of their options, Assault pilots have to do whatever they can do to avoid being instantly marked for death by the other team's LRM200's. Poptarting is one of those options.

A lot of you people hate poptarting not because it's particularly lethal or effective, but because it's hard to hit jumpers with your LRMs. This is what I find most delicious of all.

I stopped reading after the "LRMS are no-skill weapons" failument. I thought about explaining why this is a failed argument... but then went "why feed the troll"?

TS:DR

Lyoto Machida, on 25 March 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

You're either a troll, a liar or misinformed...there's no other explanation for your post.

I'm sure you played plenty of 12 mans and saw all the LRM teams wrecking shop over the past year, amirite?

I played in a few and watched 12 LRM mechs get their heads handed to them repeatedly by the AC/PPC meta.

To say that LRMs are OP is not only laughable, its insipidly insulting to intellectual integrity. oooooh fun alliteration.

[Magic Murder Bag]

Novakaine, on 25 March 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Well lets give a victory clap for the brainless.
Who wouldn't know what a tactic was even if someone dipped a wet towel in it and slap them in the face.
For the cheesemongers who build the latest cheesy builds, and are now mad they can't use it untouched.
For the alpha clowns who love to ram their mechs into another player and do just that.
Oh and lest not forget our friendly poptarders, who slink behind rocks head shot other players then have
the nerve to type "gg" at the end of a match.
Way to go so much for intelligence nowadays I guess.
Clap Clap Clap.

"remember when the forums weren't filled with the brainless and the whiners (particularly the latter), pepperidge farms remembers..."

Also, I never had problems with the missiles, then again I pilot a firestarter with 8 M-Las that I call Ball Buster

[Kjudoon]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Yeah. I play a medium all the time. Won the Blackjack tourney with it, in fact.

I own two Atlas mechs. Barely ever touch them because I get sick of getting plastered to death by LRMs. And are you seriously advocating that not enough people play light? REALLY? Because last I checked, Spiders and Ravens were a fixture of every match, often operating in coordinated lances, and thanks to hit detection are an enormously overblown threat to heavy and assault mechs.

Assuming his numbers are accurate on what he observed, he's got the math to back his allegations up. What do you got? Maybe it's Elo specific and you're not in his bracket one way... or the other.

[Jon Gotham]

Kjudoon, on 25 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Assuming his numbers are accurate on what he observed, he's got the math to back his allegations up. What do you got? Maybe it's Elo specific and you're not in his bracket one way... or the other.

As I said in the admittedly small sample size, that is what I personally saw within a 48 hour timespan. Also it's what my 3 other friends see, constantly ( one of whom has ditched his mediums, because he's had enough of it).
It's also what has driven upwards of 8 other players from my unit away from the game.
It's also driven away 4 other people I introduced to the game.


It's not just me seeing it. I've even decided to stop playing heavies myself-I will not, on a point of personal honour make the problem worse for others.
Maybe you are in a different elo to me Maniac, I seriously on the whole see few light players in games, and even fewer good ones. Usually the only meds on my team are Me and my mates.
6+ heavies? Oh yes see that ALL the time:(

[Red October911]

Hmmm not sure what to say about this, on one hand I can understand that it can be difficult for assaults to get to cover and escape LRM fire certainly if they increase the LRM speed and decrese Assault speed. On the other hand, cover is literally everywhere in MWO and it's quite simple to run up to a hill and hunker down when it rains, alternatively stick close to ECM friendlies (then again i mainly play mediums so it might be easier said than done for assaults).

That being said, it's sad to see people leave the community just for this silly reason. I still see a load of potential in this game and having LRMs ''broken'' doesn't seem to be game ending to me.

On an semi unrelated topic, I hope CW pulls through and manages to meet both PGI and the player base's expectations. Maybe then we'll see MWO's population grow

[torturous]

good message Red October

Red October911, on 26 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Hmmm not sure what to say about this, on one hand I can understand that it can be difficult for assaults to get to cover and escape LRM fire certainly if they increase the LRM speed and decrese Assault speed. On the other hand, cover is literally everywhere in MWO and it's quite simple to run up to a hill and hunker down when it rains, alternatively stick close to ECM friendlies (then again i mainly play mediums so it might be easier said than done for assaults).

That being said, it's sad to see people leave the community just for this silly reason. I still see a load of potential in this game and having LRMs ''broken'' doesn't seem to be game ending to me.

On an semi unrelated topic, I hope CW pulls through and manages to meet both PGI and the player base's expectations. Maybe then we'll see MWO's population grow

After the patch my LRM boats damage output increased with many games over 1k damage.

LRM boat 1= catA1 6xlrm5 the "Rock and Rolla"
LRM boat 2= hgn733 2x20lrm 1x10lrm

With a lance of Gatekeepers 1xscout 3xLrm mechs
=Domination

but tactics and team mates against pugs. easy to concentrate fire and pick off targets.

If I was solo dropping I would probably spit the dummy or get a faster Mech.

Heavy Mechs where mentioned before: "get a faster Mech"
got a Cataphract that does 87 and a jester 97. "living life in the fast lane"
and I do like hunting LRM boats.


After the patch, I play more heavy/medium mechs because of the speed factor. Assaults where always a bit tricky if you committed to the wrong engagement but now with LRM, makes you pay faster.

Have seen an increase of 3-4 ECM atlas hit the field now. well ECM in general.

good to see people using NARC too. even pugs sport them now.

anyhow.

my vote would be for LRM to be a bit slower.... but not as slow as before.

[Zuesacoatl]

Blue doqyn, on 25 March 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

You did not live through the real LRMageddon, I take it.. When Art was first introduced and boats were doing 2-4k damage >_> This is FAR from a LRMageddon.

Most whiners did not live through it, if they did, they would wish this instance happened back then.

The other thing I did not like and discount his overall post is the fact that he could not get over the fact that PGIs money maker is the solo drop player. They are already catering to the teams with private games, but to say "screw solo players" yeah, ask your mom for a hug and a cup of coco with mellows you baby...really.

Overall, the change is not bad as it stands. The only people i have seen so far that have bitched are those that just can not free up 1.5 tons, or can not stay out of WIDE open areas. The proposed reduction in LRMs is going to Nerf them back into batlefield noise and useless. As it stands, you really did not see an increase of LRMs in 12mans, you will see even less once again.

[TheRealPope478]

I haven't played in awhile so I will have to check out my LRM stalker after my patch finishes.

Honestly though I laugh at people who say LRMs are "no skill weapons". With LRMs before the patch if you where shooting LRMs from beyond 500 meters you where wasting ammo. With the time it takes to lock on plus flight time, you have to know when to shoot and when not too. If a DDC walks through open ground within my tag range, then it's going to die. Plain and simple.

The problem I have always had is with those LRM boats that want to hang out at 1k meters while other people get them locks. They are worthless. A good LRM boat will be right behind the front line, focus firing on the biggest threat present. To me my job as an LRM boat is NOT to get the kill, but to open up a targets armour for direct fire weapons. LRMs are "support" weapons.

So as I said I haven't tried out the new changes, BUT I have a hard time believing they are game breaking. Proper use of cover will ALWAYS trump LRMs.

I haven't played in awhile so I will have to check out my LRM stalker after my patch finishes.

Honestly though I laugh at people who say LRMs are "no skill weapons". With LRMs before the patch if you where shooting LRMs from beyond 500 meters you where wasting ammo. With the time it takes to lock on plus flight time, you have to know when to shoot and when not too. If a DDC walks through open ground within my tag range, then it's going to die. Plain and simple.

The problem I have always had is with those LRM boats that want to hang out at 1k meters while other people get them locks. They are worthless. A good LRM boat will be right behind the front line, focus firing on the biggest threat present. To me my job as an LRM boat is NOT to get the kill, but to open up a targets armour for direct fire weapons. LRMs are "support" weapons.

So as I said I haven't tried out the new changes, BUT I have a hard time believing they are game breaking. Proper use of cover will ALWAYS trump LRMs.