347 replies to this topic

[skorpionet]

My thread about this now is in "archive" ?!?!? Then I'll write here.

I would only remind to mechwarriors the huge nerf:

Torso movement speed: 20% below default.
Turning speed: 20% below default.
Arm movement speed: 10% below default.

[XX Sulla XX]

I agree the nurf was way over the top and the only thing it did was discourage brawling.

To me it seems simple. The Victor is only 80 tons. By tonnage it is is closer to a 3D than an Atlas. So it should handle more like a 3D than an Atlas. And that is what it is supposed to be a fast agile assault that plays more like a heavy.

Also like most of you I was running AC20, SRMs and a big engine with all the jump jets. Close in brawling. This was greatly affected by the nurf. The high DPS and snipers were not.

By the way now to get something of the same feel I am running 385xl-400xls. Does not leave much room for weopons or ammo or armor. And I also paid real world cash for all my Victors.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

kesuga7, on 01 April 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

and honestly its only 3 varaints that are wrecking the Poptart meta
Catapratch - 3D - Victor with the arm ballistics - Highlander 733c
so giving those 3 variants negative quirks to hinder their pop tarting effectiveness would help

Good thoughts, but giving them a quirk like "reduced jumpjet lifting power-50%", or "Unstable flight +200% crosshair shake during jump" would combat the Poptarts without making this mech userless for close-in fighting and maneuvering.

I never poptarted, loved the Victor for its traits, a mobile assault sacrificing a heavy weapons load for mobility, i like its cockpit..but if you cant even turn fast enough to get as medium out of your rear arc, with a 340XL engine... honestly, this Mech is simply not fun to play.. Honestly, my Banshees run slower, but turn faster, with a better weapon loadout (no need to nerf it, though)

I brought a Dragonslayer when it came out, i tried to level at least 2 others variants to basic to progress to Master, but honestly... would the damn Dragonslayer not have been so expensive, i would have sold all Victors and call it another dead Mech for me.

[Prezimonto]

Coralld, on 01 April 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Perhaps the Victor change may have made it on par with the Highlander in terms of agility, but remember, PGI said that all Assaults and possibly the Heavies or some of them are going to get an agility nerf, which the Victor just got hit and the nerf for the rest are possibly right around the corner.

IF they pull through on this for the rest of the large mechs, and leave the Victor alone in the process I'll probably be okay with it's current state. The problem is that instead of feeling like an 80 ton mech, (where before it felt like a 70 ton mech) it now feels like I'm piloting a 90 ton mech, even with a huge engine.

If I pay the non-linear tonnage increase for a large engine I want to see the agility return expected.

[XX Sulla XX]

I know this is crazy but maybe PGI will do the right thing and pull the anti brawling nurf back some.

[Shae Starfyre]

I have to agree. I bought the mech for it's potential at being nimble.

I ran and still run an XL 375, 1 LBX (3 Tons Ammo), 1 MG (1 ton Ammo), 3 ML, and 2 Streeks (2 tons of amo), BAP, AMS (1 ton), and 3 JJ (near max armor, .5 tons shaved), and it was for the puprose of being a heavily armored skirmisher who would skirt the front line, weave in and out, and be able to chase off lights. So non-meta people laughed at me until the scoreboard.

I use to be able to do a complete 180 turn in mid-air bringing all weapon in line, now it is a lumbering 100 degrees; so slow, you can't track some lights and mediums anymore.

Had to change tactics, which slowed the mech down into a more straight line, side-straifer; no longer able to do a complete turn in midair for the cost of such an engine, 3 JJ (not one) and a loadout that most people laugh at!

I think they should dial it back by half; even if they do a complete pass through all the other Assaults. I would like to have at least a 150 degree turn in the air so I can bear my arms around at the very least.

It is just so cumbersome now it feels like an assault mech!

Edited by Aphoticus, 02 April 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 01 April 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think the fundamental issue is that Victors had as good of or better handling than Mediums. When you have an 80 ton Assault mech that's more maneuverable than a Medium, then you have a problem. The change was intended to bring them in line with their weight class.

It is much closer to being an Orion than an Atlas. Here is the problem with the change. With the same size engine, the Dragon Slayer is less maneuverable than a Stalker and a highlander. Does that make sense? If they are going to nerf this they need to do all of them or none of them. They need to just not mess around with anything anymore because it's going to make it too hard for players without jump jets to get in and out of cover and force everyone into poptarts. They should be increasing maneuverability of all mechs not decreasing of some.

[MisterPlanetarian]

It's still a deadly assault mech even with the nerfs. You have jump jets, optimal hardpoint placements and decent hardpoints overall.

[DeathlyEyes]

MisterPlanetarian, on 02 April 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's still a deadly assault mech even with the nerfs. You have jump jets, optimal hardpoint placements and decent hardpoints overall.

But it's less mobile than a highlander. What's the point?

[Trauglodyte]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I recently emailed the support email account notifying PGI that I would no longer purchase any mechs with MC in the future, their response to the email essentially told me to make a post in this forum. So here we go.

The changes to the Victor were completely unnecessary. The changes failed to correct the issue they were actually targeting. Furthermore they altered a product I purchased with money, not in game currency but my actual money. Here is where the issue comes. I can understand for the sake of balance slightly modifying a mech by about 5%, drastically altering performance of a mech by 20% is going way too far.

Now if I remember correctly, the reason for the nerf was to make it so that Poptart Victors would have trouble brawling. This is partially true now, the nerf has not really affected poptarting, while it has affected handling in close combat situations. Now this is fine, but the problem with this is it also affects non poptarting Victors. The original point of the Victor, according to technical readouts, was that the Victor could jump into a fire fight and bring some close range autocannons to the battle. Essentially jumping around adding firepower where it was needed tipping the scale in pitch battles.

This nerf does nothing to encourage this kind of behavior from the chassis and actually promotes quite the opposite. The mech is now as sluggish as an Atlas with the same size engine. This is what I have issue with most. Why does an 80 ton mech handle like an Atlas? It just doesn't make sense.

Finally I offer a simple solution. Increase the DPS of close range weapons and/or decrease the HPS of these weapon systems so brawlers can get an advantage close up with a Victor that is carrying "Sniper Weapons." The other option would be to reduce the DPS of the "sniper weapons." Currently a dual AC5 dual PPC Victor does 11.66 DPS, while a mech with 9 medium lasers only does 11.25. SRMs are sort of broken so their actual DPS would be hard to calculate but would likely not be much better than the 11.66 DPS the "Meta poptart" is putting out.

Without actually correcting the DPS issue with these weapons more chassis being released at later dates (Summoner) will have the same issue. I don't think the community will take well to a Summoner handling like an Atlas.

And this is what I wrote in the same thread in the Mechs & Loudouts forum:

Prior to the change, the Victor was an 80 ton medium mech. By that, it was moving at nearly the same speeds (75-80 doesn't equal 98 but near to it) as medium mechs while having nearly the same agility along with JJs, more armor, and heavier payloads. When you have an imbalance like this, you need to fix it because it causes people to gravitate away from other mechs because this one is as good, if not better.

So, again, stop crying about it and either adapt to how the mech should be played, move on to another mech that operates like the Victor used to, or go to another game.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 01 April 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I also have been finding my Victor's no longer fun to play.

I rarely ran a poptart meta build on my Victors, my favorite was the 9B with an AC20, 2LL, an AMS and an XL350. It's not even a huge damage output mech, but the mobility made it easily the most fun mech to run that I owned. I had the speed and armor to actually get into brawling range, and it needed those things without the long range damage.

Please decrease the penalty to perhaps 10% on the Victor. In return nerf something else... turn up ghost heat for PPC's to 1... I could care less about poptarts.

And you know what was even less FUN, trying to brawl/fight an 80t Battlerina.

[Adiuvo]

Skull Leader2, on 01 April 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

I feel like all these people that complained it was too agile don't realize tonnage needed to make it so agile. You had to run at least 340 engine and 360 was more optimal. With that and JJ you greatly reduce the weapon space. My equally fast K2 with 300 engine could carry just as much firepower as a Victor and had advantages of high arms and good turning rates. Victor was not intended to go toe to toe with Atlas in a p*ssing contest or feel like a Battlemaster while moving. The biggest problem with taking away the Victor's agility is that it no longer has any advantage over the alternatives (Highlander) but still has all the disadvantages (less firepower, low arms).

Due to the JJ changes the Victor is actually better than a Highlander currently.

[Trauglodyte]

Skull Leader2, on 01 April 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

I feel like all these people that complained it was too agile don't realize tonnage needed to make it so agile. You had to run at least 340 engine and 360 was more optimal. With that and JJ you greatly reduce the weapon space. My equally fast K2 with 300 engine could carry just as much firepower as a Victor and had advantages of high arms and good turning rates. Victor was not intended to go toe to toe with Atlas in a p*ssing contest or feel like a Battlemaster while moving. The biggest problem with taking away the Victor's agility is that it no longer has any advantage over the alternatives (Highlander) but still has all the disadvantages (less firepower, low arms).

You're probably right. Except for the fact that I ran my Victor 9S, pre-change, with a 340XL, max JJs, 2x PPCs, and an AC20 along with as many DHSs that I could fit along with AMS. The Victor was too easy to meneuver and now it is where it needs to be. Anyone that doesn't believe that is so blinded by their bias that no amount of fact is going to change that. Btw, there isn't supposed to be that much of a difference between a Victor and a Highlander. They're seperated by 10 tons and carry a combination of energy, missiles, and ballistics. Straight line speed is all that should have ever differentiated them and that still exists.

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 02 April 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

And you know what was even less FUN, trying to brawl/fight an 80t Battlerina.

I'm not suggesting things didn't need some tweaking. But 20% nerf feels really bad. I wish they'd have done 10% or even 5% over several patches until the mech moved okay, but not too fast.

[DeathlyEyes]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

You're probably right. Except for the fact that I ran my Victor 9S, pre-change, with a 340XL, max JJs, 2x PPCs, and an AC20 along with as many DHSs that I could fit along with AMS. The Victor was too easy to meneuver and now it is where it needs to be. Anyone that doesn't believe that is so blinded by their bias that no amount of fact is going to change that. Btw, there isn't supposed to be that much of a difference between a Victor and a Highlander. They're seperated by 10 tons and carry a combination of energy, missiles, and ballistics. Straight line speed is all that should have ever differentiated them and that still exists.

So you think a Victor should be less maneuverable as a Stalker and Highlander and on par with an Atlas. Interesting. What advantage would it have then?

Prezimonto, on 02 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting things didn't need some tweaking. But 20% nerf feels really bad. I wish they'd have done 10% or even 5% over several patches until the mech moved okay, but not too fast.

I could agree with this

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[cheapcamper]

well..... I think PGI has good intentions and wanted the gameplay to be balanced........but they overdid it too late.......... well i guess that is what happens if you have a small dev team...................

[Trauglodyte]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

So you think a Victor should be less maneuverable as a Stalker and Highlander and on par with an Atlas. Interesting.

I think that it needs to be near the Atlas. Remember, it is only 20 tons lighter than said Atlas. The Locust is 20 tons lighter than the Cicada and has much greater straight line speed and only marginally better agility statistics (to the point where they're hardly even noticable). The benefit of the Victor is its point to point speed. THAT is what makes it a great mech. Prior to the change, it was more agile than the Awesome 9M while weighing the same and having the same engine cap. How is that remotely balanced? It isn't and that was the problem.

I am a believer that, once the Heavies get passed over and tweaked, you'll see less of a hinderance to your game play in the Victor. It isn't hard to notice the change and it does take some getting used to but it isn't a game breaker. The big thing is that you now have to realize where you're going and what is there when you get there because you no longer have the ability to dance like an 80 ton Shadowhawk. That was the goal of the change and I think that they hit it.

The big kicker is that the Victor and the Highlander both got hit twice with an agility pass over on top of a JJ change. It is my firm belief that PGI handled the JJ nerf in the wrong way because the Assaults got hit with it in a MASSIVE way while the Lights got little to no change at all. Recharge time is still a tad short, there isn't any real heat associated with JJs, and it was really always the Light mechs, in combination with their ability to avoid damage due to being so spindly, that were the problems. Heavy and Assault poptarters just needed heat added to JJs and a recharge nerf. So, I think what a lot of people don't like about the Victor and Highlander changes comes from the combination of changes. A clan mate of mine went on to say the other night that he sold most of his Victors and Highlanders (owned all of them including the heroes) and pulled all of the JJs off of his remaining Highlanders.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 April 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think that it needs to be near the Atlas. Remember, it is only 20 tons lighter than said Atlas. The Locust is 20 tons lighter than the Cicada and has much greater straight line speed and only marginally better agility statistics (to the point where they're hardly even noticable). The benefit of the Victor is its point to point speed. THAT is what makes it a great mech. Prior to the change, it was more agile than the Awesome 9M while weighing the same and having the same engine cap. How is that remotely balanced? It isn't and that was the problem.

I am a believer that, once the Heavies get passed over and tweaked, you'll see less of a hinderance to your game play in the Victor. It isn't hard to notice the change and it does take some getting used to but it isn't a game breaker. The big thing is that you now have to realize where you're going and what is there when you get there because you no longer have the ability to dance like an 80 ton Shadowhawk. That was the goal of the change and I think that they hit it.

The big kicker is that the Victor and the Highlander both got hit twice with an agility pass over on top of a JJ change. It is my firm belief that PGI handled the JJ nerf in the wrong way because the Assaults got hit with it in a MASSIVE way while the Lights got little to no change at all. Recharge time is still a tad short, there isn't any real heat associated with JJs, and it was really always the Light mechs, in combination with their ability to avoid damage due to being so spindly, that were the problems. Heavy and Assault poptarters just needed heat added to JJs and a recharge nerf. So, I think what a lot of people don't like about the Victor and Highlander changes comes from the combination of changes. A clan mate of mine went on to say the other night that he sold most of his Victors and Highlanders (owned all of them including the heroes) and pulled all of the JJs off of his remaining Highlanders.

Trebutche is only 20 tons lighter than the Victor it should handle similar to a Victor. Lets put a 200 engine size limit on all mechs while we are at it. Also no jump jets and make it so everyone has a 5 degree per second turn rate.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Trebutche is only 20 tons lighter than the Victor it should handle similar to a Victor. Lets put a 200 engine size limit on all mechs while we are at it. Also no jump jets and make it so everyone has a 5 degree per second turn rate.

I've tried to reason this out with you. You don't want to listen to it so I'll leave the discussion at an end here.

[DeathlyEyes]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I've tried to reason this out with you. You don't want to listen to it so I'll leave the discussion at an end here.

You don't seem to understand how terrible it is to drastically alter a product after initial sale. They could easily buff other mechs slightly to make up for it and slightly nerf the Victor. In small steps of say 2.5-5% and at most alter it by 10%. Altering a mech negatively massively is totally unacceptable. They also needed to adjust all Mechs in the weight class similarly. Targeting one mech and making it handle WORSE than a highlander is bad. Yes a Victor should be as maneuverable as an Awesome. The jump jets take up extra weight and space so that's the trade off for taking them. It shouldn't be penalized just because it can take jump jets because not everyone wants to use a Victor with jump jets.
XL 310 on both Highlander and Victor

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 12:54 PM.