35 replies to this topic

[Bobby Blast]

Some times it is necessary to take your lance through a tunnel or through low terrain to attack the enemy from behind with coordinated fire for maximum effect. Flanking, generally speaking is the single most tide turning event that my unit executes.

Flanking does not work if everyone "sticks together" sometimes we run an ECM so as to go unnoticed but 90% of the time the friendly blob is en tow so our flanking becomes a front line, and that's ok too.

I'm bringing this up because tonight on forest colony we were told to stay at the base during a skirmish... I'm sorry I am not a guard tower nor am I a defense turret nor are my unit mates. As the Norse say two small wolves can kill a bear and we are mechwarriors a after all and we are the Wolves of Davion.

We took a Cataphract, Orion, and a Battlemaster through the tunnel and around the water behind the enemies front lines. We killed an atlas, 2 stalkers, a centurion, a griffon, a catapult, and a banshee and the ENTIRE TIME from our first engagement in the water we were cursed at by our own team yelled and and questioned why we were so far away from the base. CURSED at by teammates who claimed we had sacrificed them to kill all the mech that they had cored and we won.

I'm bringing this up to let you know that when you see a lance off on a remote corner of the map before you cry abandonment try to see the bigger picture in the battle. They are most likely trying to flank and I have sacrificed myself time and time again to distract the enemy while I see a flanking lance come in.

On a side note: when someone says "stick together" it never ends well. Lances in mechwarriors are designed to move autonomously not cluster up in a hole so the enemy can play 80 ton whack-a-mole. When you cluster up you tend to take more friendly damage than anything because noobs get tunnel vision and blood lust and walk in front of each other.

Just food for thought while on the battlefield.

[nagdamnit]

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but I've found that this game punishes those that dare to flank, or split from the pack. If your lance is not made up of 4 very mobile light or medium mechs, the chances are you will just get eaten up as the entire other team focus fires on the flankers.

Sure it'll work out every now and then, but just as frequently you'll get chewed up.

[Karl Streiger]

Flanking manouvers work in most cases... as long as the team react in the right way.... a cross fire situation means that several enemy mechs will be exposed to incoming fire... the important thing is not to fire at those that fire on you but to shoot at those with the exposed side..

i can remember a single game - where the team i played with was encircled...where ever you turn you got shots in the rear.... while i was circling my stalker firing in every direction and in the end i did try to break out - exposing my self to all fronts and died in seconds....

a good positioning is worth much more as any cover you can get.... because cover means there is always a angle of attack that hit you - while you are not moving.

so my advice (imo don't use cover to dig in - use cover to cloud your movement and to create kill zones)

on the other hand kill zones could be countered by one or two flanking madmen and a all in assault where every body steps into the line of fire of the enemy in the same moment....if you are engaged in combat....try not to use the "back" button...try to advance an search another position - nearer to the enemy.

last not least - when me and my freaking big Atlas are able to flank - you can do it with your Wolverine or Shadow Hawk faster and more effective (increasing the angle of crossfire)

[Raso]

My most fond memory is running a flanking maneuver with 3 HBK-4SPs and an ECM Cicada on Frozen City. My team was all lined up along Tard Ridge and the drop ship and were getting picked off one by one by LRMs and Gauss Rifle fire. So I took my 2 buddies lance plus one willing ECM Cicada around to D8 and came up through the city at D7. We were in a tight formation and packing mad SRMs.

We saw a Phract and with a few alphas he was down. Next we came upon a Centurian. Done. Next up was Gausscat. We took out his size torso before he knew we were there and the Gauss-splision cored him.

All of this took place in the span of around 14 seconds. Once we were in the clear we started using the buildings and enemy mechs for cover. Using the poor visibility and our maneuverability to our advantage we dodged in and out of the buildings never giving the enemy enough time to react. As they started to run around like headless chickens the rest of my team pushed past the ridge and started picking off the damaged mechs or any foolish enough to expose their backs.

When we made out push we were down 6 to 8. When we stood victorious we had one 6 to 0.

I miss those glory days, when the 4SP was feared.... good times.

[Race Rogers]

edit: sorry quoted the wrong person:

It is because of fear the pack stays put....im with Bobby Blast on this one. sticking together is all fine n' dandy but when a few do a flank, the rest should go push in. more often than not, the rest just stand around. i see it all the time and ima newbie. most maps i can tell if we are going to lose within the first minute by whats said or where everyone is headed. its kind of sad really.

most times if the blob sees confusion in the enemy ranks, from a flanking, they dont push in! total confusion is happening in the enemies rear, everyone can see it, lasers, big loud sounds, red mech triangles all running around every which way, a red mech goes down etc... but they are more worried about saving them selves so they sit and wait and wait and lose the match. its like that guy that takes command 12 mins into the match when we are winning to tell people what to do. lol

Race

Edited by Race Rogers, 03 April 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Sometimes 4 mechs flank.....the rest looses a 8 vs 12 ambush....and the great Flanker face nearly 12 enemys.

Splitting your Team mostly Ends up in a mess.

[meteorol]

People hate flanking because it fails 3/4 of the time in public games.

For this whole "hammer and anvil" thing to work, the hammer needs to swing at the right time, and the anvil has to be strong enough to withstand the blow.

One of both usually fails when playing in PUGS.
Either the flanking guys are noticed and obliterated 12vs4 because the remaining team missed the short window for a hard push, or the enemy team realizes that they have an advantage in numbers, rush the non-flanking guys and crushes them.

Those problems are only exacerbated by guys often using the wrong mechs to flank. I have seen more than a few "flanks" horribly, horribly fail because the guys choose to flank in 3 Assault and 1 heavy. It took them way to long to get into position, remaining team was totally crushed because they had like a 300t heavier enemy force rushing them.

People hate flanking because they have seen countless "flanking maneuvers" resulting in a 12:0 defeat.
Frankly, i have seen alot more flanking maneuvers fail than having success. This doesn't mean it is a bad tactic, it's awesome if it is properly executed. And sadly, thats were most flanks fail, due to the lack of ingame communitcation.

Edited by meteorol, 03 April 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Setting out from the start to flank is a bad idea in my opinion. You essentially roll the dice and hope you get into position in time and are not caught out alone. Speed is the name of the game for flanking. Best to leave maneuvers to maneuverable mechs.

[Bilbo]

Rouken, on 03 April 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Setting out from the start to flank is a bad idea in my opinion. You essentially roll the dice and hope you get into position in time and are not caught out alone. Speed is the name of the game for flanking. Best to leave maneuvers to maneuverable mechs.

The anvil does no good if there is no hammer. I prefer to make sure there is a hammer, no matter my mechs speed.

[Zelumbras]

A battle is a living thing; it evolves and can sometimes turn in unpredictable ways. Often not the best pilots or best suited mechs win a match, but rather the team that takes the initiative - and flanking is one of the most basic and effective ways to do so.

Had two fun matches yesterday and several today, where a quick flanking maneuver won the match. First one we were down 6-9 on HPG and all 3 remaining heavily damaged while they had at least 2 almost fresh mechs. we always stayed on the move, using cover whenever possible while denying them the effective use of their way superior remaining armor and firepower and focused them down 1by1.

The second match i dropped with the same 2 people in my lance as in the HPG match by coincidence and we quickly decided to go for a quick, suicidal flank before the usual clusterfight at mount doom in Terra Therma (PuG lottery win!). we had an Ember, my BJ-3, a fast Victor and a LRM Stalker which turned out to be an extremely potent combo. The Light took the Squirrel part, i provided fire support and fast response wherever my lasers or armor were needed, the Victor took them head on and the Stalker rained the pain from afar while moving up to us. We quickly took out 3 of their mechs and by the time the rest realized we were there, they were already pinned between the main force in the crater and our lance on the other side. Needless to say we won this match in just a few minutes with minimal casualties and a lot of fun

Not all maps have enough space for a real 12v12. In that case it is very effective to find an angle to attack with the remaining mechs. Splitting a lance from the main blob can therefore help you bring a lot more firepower on the enemy than keeping all together. The most obvious example might be the passes to the crater ring in Terra Therma. There is simply not enough room for more than 1-3 mechs (depending on which pass and the mechs) to fire at the same time while a well placed Arty-/Air-Strike can hit 4-8 mechs easily. Staying together there is generally a rather inefficient idea unless you really mean to push the crater without stopping.


TL;DR: Winning a battle is a lot about gaining and keeping the initiative over your opponents. Flanking, pushing, repositioning as well as tactical retreat to a superior position are all basic and effective ways to achieve that. Just take the time to type a few words in chat to make sure you are not going alone.

Edited by Vulcan888, 03 April 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bilbo, on 03 April 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

The anvil does no good if there is no hammer. I prefer to make sure there is a hammer, no matter my mechs speed.

The hammer does no good if it doesn't arrive in time or if it is destroyed first. Also there are more tactics than just the hammer and anvil.

[Bilbo]

Rouken, on 03 April 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

The hammer does no good if it doesn't arrive in time or if it is destroyed first. Also there are more tactics than just the hammer and anvil.

True, but if I don't move in a direction that the majority of players are not. The entire team will end up in a death-ball nine times out of ten. I don't have the slightest inclination to hide behind a hill or building waiting for the other team to do something.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bilbo, on 03 April 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

True, but if I don't move in a direction that the majority of players are not. The entire team will end up in a death-ball nine times out of ten. I don't have the slightest inclination to hide behind a hill or building waiting for the other team to do something.

Well, now we're talking about player behavior and not the merits of a given tactic.

Here is the point. Flanking is a good tactic. Pushing with more stuff than the other guy is a good tactic. Committing slow forces to far flung areas of the map before knowing anything about the enemy other than there is about 12 of them is bad strategy.

[Jody Von Jedi]

My comment is really somewhat off topic, but related.

Last weekend I dropped in a conquest match on Terra Therma. The 1st chat message was from someone saying "stay together", and "Lone Wolves die quickly". I quickly responded with, "This is Conquest, not assault or skirmish" and was immediately attacked by the OP and told to Obey his commands and I'd better not run off alone. I'm sure you know the outcome of this match. We did some damage, but lost on resource points in a hurry. We weren't even able to hold 1 capture point after a couple minutes in, because Terra Therma is a big map and we were all bunched up together. I fired off a parting comment about bad tactics and got silence in return.

I know Conquest is really not what you're discussing here, but this experience shows the herd mentality that exists in PUG matches. Even when the obvious "death ball" tactic won't work on Conquest, some refuse to split up and criticize you when you leave the herd.

Flanking is by far my favorite tactic in this game. I run fast mediums and heavies which is where they really shine.

Jody

[Spleenslitta]

I perform flanking maneuvers all the time. I do it alone in my Jenner so if i die it's not much of a loss for my team.

If i stay alive i can make a decent amount of damage pile up, spot a few LRM salvo's (can't stay still long enough to target most of the time) and maybe even get a kill or two.

Here are the most important things in order to stay alive when your doing a lone ranger flanking maneuver.
Keep in mind that my advice is not absolute. I am not infallible.

- Never come in and out of the same piece of cover over and over again. That's death because it's predictable.
This applies to any mech/player no matter what your playstyle/tactics are.

- They say maneuverability, JJ/ECM, speed and cover is a lights best armor. Add unpredictability to that list.

- Get out of cover and shot once or maybe twice if nobody notices you. Then it's time to relocate. Don't get greedy.
Greed will be punished. Believe me. It has happend to me many times...over and over i become overcome by greed and i get punished.
Almost like i'm a Pavlov experiment.

- If you got JJ's use them to perform a backjump into cover. It's faster than just running backwards.
ECM is good of course but it's no protection against direct fire weaponry. I say JJ's are better than ECM. But that's just me.

- AMS isn't much use if you are alone and you only have one. It might even work against you.
It might fire at some missiles and declare your location and where you are going.

- Relocate often and make the sniping spots far between. Running from one piece of cover to another only 100 meters away usually ain't good enough.
Be unpredicable. You might not do much damage so quick because of traveltime, but the longer you survive the more damage piles up.
Also an undamaged light mech in the endgame can go on a rampage to kill heavily damaged mechs.
You could possibly save the day with such a rampage. Maybe...perhaps.

- Don't stay in the same territory too long. If you do the lights/light hunters will come for you.
It might be worth it to relocate to the opposite side of the map even sometimes to survive longterm.
Remember survival is more damage caused in longterms.

- Chose your targets wisely. Shooting at a nearly dead mech might not be worth it if several of his buddies sees it.
As few as possible should see the shot. Preferably none should see it.
Getting their attention might make them run after you instead of killing your teammates but...well you know.

- The damage you do might not be of secondary importance in comparison to keeping a few mechs occupied with running after you.
Conflicts the above advice but you should judge what is most important when you face such a situation. Do what you believe is best.
It usually is.

- Speed is more important than firepower with these tactics. That's how i have experienced it at least.
It allows you relocate farther and faster thus increasing the damage you do over time because of less traveltime.
Further relocation allows you become more unpredictable and thus they will more often face a different direction than where you pop out to take your shot.

- Let's say a big mech and yourself is near a building or another type of big cover. You run behind cover and continue in that direction for a few seconds while his targeting is still locked on you.
Then you do a 180 and come out where you dissappeared.
He most likely expected you to come out on the other side of the building/cover because of how his target lock followed you after you left his line of sight.
Now his back turned to you.
Works really well when he doesn't have Seismic sensor. If he does have a Seismic sensor he sees you anyhow...unless he doesn't bother looking at it since he believes you won't do this.
It's not a common thing to do after all. I don't see it much anyhow.

- Seismic Sensor is incredibly important for anyone. But you knew that already...right?


- Targeting the same mech all the time will focus your damage yes. But it also makes the enemy in question more used to your tactics and he becomes hyperaware of your activities.
He becomes more likely to call for help if you bother him too much. That means lights and light hunters. Bad news.
So it might be better to chose another target every once in a while.
But don't attack too many either since that makes it more likely you will run into someone with a Seismic sensor or he might be clever enough to predict what you will do next.

- Flexible range in your weapon selection will give you more opportunities to cause damage. This might give you more damage over the course of the entire match.
Keep that "might" in mind but it clearly works for me without a doubt.

-If you rely on an ammo dependent weapon to cause most of your damage it's good to have a lot of ammo.
However if it is a secondary weaponsystem a single tonn will probably do the job most of the time.
I had a Jenner once with 2ML's, 1 ER LL and 2x SRM2 with a single tonn of ammo.(SRM2 for faster reloads)
The SRM2's was mostly for those up close silver plater opportunities where the enemy had his back to me.

- When fleeing don't go in a straight line if the enemy has direct fire weapons. Run a Zigsag pattern.
This will allow you to dodge the majority of incoming damage. Even the brunt of lasers will miss you most of the time if the enemy is an Assault/heavy.

- There is no shame in fleeing from an enemy if you plan to strike back later.
Your continued survival allows you to cause more damage than just a single defiant alpha strike.
I actually work better under pressure. Once i'm damaged down to a yellow exposed CT my mind kicks into overdrive and i become even more cautious.
That's when i do my best work strangely enough. I also do my best thinking when i'm sitting on a toilet but that's completly off topic.

- Remember that pressing R, getting info on your target, lining up the shot to perfectly shot a damaged section takes time.
This is time you are out of cover and vurnerable.
Get used to look for smoking sections on enemy mechs. Aim for those smoking sections.
It will have more or less the same effect if done properly.

- A lot of LRM boats will complain that you don't keep locks so they can pour on the LRM rain because of the above advice and because you rarelly keep line of sight for long.
Well it's not your duty to vurnerably stand in the open so they can do this. If you wish to assist the LRM boats concider getting a NARC.
A NARC will stay active for 30 seconds once it's stuck on a target.
It's heavier than a TAG yes but you don't have to spend a lot of time standing out there in the open with that TAG laser so visibly pointing to where you are.
But choose your targets wisely since loads of AMS will make the LRM's ineffective and you will have limited NARC ammo.
Choose lone mechs or groups with no AMS.

- If you use a TAG do not keep it switched on at all times. A TAG laser constantly firing ahead of you is like an announcement saying:
Hey you enemy mechs. Here i come to spot you so the LRM can rain on your heads.


I use a Jenner with 3ML's and 1 ER LL, 245 XL and JJ's. Yeah i know i should upgrade to a 265 or 280. i made a mistake.
Why not 2 ER LL's or an ER PPC? Because the 3x ML gives me a much better short range alpha strike for those times when i get close and get an opportunity served on a silver plater.
It also allows me to mount more heatsinks.

I would be happy to give more advice if you want it. But this is all i can think of right now. Please feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Spleenslitta, on 03 April 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Get used to look for smoking sections on enemy mechs. Aim for those smoking sections.
It will have more or less the same effect if done properly.

Spleenslitta,

You taught me something. I never thought to look for this. Thanks for the tip!

Jody

[cSand]

It is damn satisfying though when you and 1 or 2 friends roll in from behind and murder half the enemy team

Edited by cSand, 03 April 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

cSand, on 03 April 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

It is damn satisfying though when you and 1 or 2 friends roll in from behind and murder half the enemy team

It really is. Especially if one them is a brawler. You just keep annoying them till they chase you.
You lead them right into an ambush where he can tear them limb from limb and just go completly beserk to the point that he start frothing from the mouth.

That's when you know that you have done a good job.

But if you miscalculate things might not go so well....but i agree that if done properly it's well worth the risk without a doubt.

[BLOOD WOLF]

So many Variables in the battle makes never a certain plan. It comes down to being able to analyze the battle. This is why we need lance leaders as well as effective commanders.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 April 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 April 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

So many Variables in the battle makes never a certain plan. It comes down to being able to analyze the battle. This is why we need lance leaders as well as effective commanders.

This is really a good thing to mention. Commanders now never -i say never since i have never seen it- give orders to lances.
Only to the whole team.

If orders are given to lances and then the lance leaders make the fine adjustments to what they see then things would be better.
That's why we really need inbuilt VOIP in MWO...well that's my opinion anyhow.

Edit: We need lance channels as well as the teamchannel.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 03 April 2014 - 10:40 AM.