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Victor Torso Turn Rate The Same As An Atlas


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#21 Gyrok

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:19 PM

I was saying this after 5 minutes in the mech post patch. I could feel it...

If you run a Victor with less than XL350 now, you are a fool, and sadly, you cannot out turn or manuever even heavier assaults than your victor anymore, much less track light mechs in it.

#22 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:35 PM

View PostModo44, on 04 April 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

JJs help, and XL friendliness helps further. This is still the most mobile assault, except now you need a big engine to feel the difference. It is not a 3D with 10 tons more mech anymore, QQ.


It never was. You always had to put a big XL engine in it to feel the difference. Now a big XL just helps you run fast, but you still torso twist like a pig. With identical weapons loadouts, my CTF-3D, runs faster, jumps faster, and feels WAY more maneuverable.

#23 Modo44

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 09:14 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 07 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

With identical weapons loadouts, my CTF-3D, runs faster, jumps faster, and feels WAY more maneuverable.

Thus making the dev's point. The Victor was never supposed to be a heavy with assault armor. Now it is not anymore. Problem solved.

#24 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:15 AM

View PostModo44, on 07 April 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Thus making the dev's point. The Victor was never supposed to be a heavy with assault armor. Now it is not anymore. Problem solved.


? No I'm talking about pre-Victor nerf. Are you being thick intentionally?

It NEVER was a heavy with assault armor. It was an 80-ton mech, with 80 ton armor and 80 ton maneuverability. Why is that concept so hard for you to understand? It's 5 tons heavier than an Orion. It's maneuverability was proportional to its weight before the nerf. The nerf just made it feel 20 tons heavier. Run fast sure, but very sluggish with torso twisting.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 April 2014 - 07:16 AM.


#25 Harathan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:05 AM

View PostModo44, on 07 April 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Thus making the dev's point. The Victor was never supposed to be a heavy with assault armor. Now it is not anymore. Problem solved.

Obvious troll is obvious.

#26 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:25 AM

Probably another butthurt victim of Popmeta, still not an issue with the Victor alone.

IMO still not a problem with these mechs.

Its the op nature of the meta combo that's forcing these changes.

I can smash things just as easily in a Thunderbolt or Dragon with the PPC/AC combo, just Victor made is slightly easier to get around terrain because it has jets.

If I want to play in a similar mech, the next best thing down is the CTF-3D or -IM which is still capable of the exact same meta build.

The global change to JJ did enough to hurt poptarting already, even mediums are noticeably affected.

Nobody is brave enough to push the issue or to admit that PPC's and AC's need some changes, not nerfs (as PGI does it), just changes to move away from the insta-murder these weapons have become.

A good start would be looking at torso twist range moreso than twist speed, with the 2x bonus's applied Assaults have a huge twist range + their arms.

2/4 or the VTR variants have only +/- 10 degrees on its arms, and those are the brawlers.. How the .... is a pilot going to cover his CT when you have that w/ the now ******** turn speed?

Edited by Mister D, 08 April 2014 - 11:35 AM.


#27 Appogee

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:39 AM

I sent a Tweet to Russ asking him to reconsider and reduce the nerf. He didn't respond (can't expect him to) but maybe if enough of us do he will understand there is broadspread concern.

Victor's agility was its uniqueness. It's low armor, and the need to carry a big engine to unlock the agility, were its tradeoffs.

Now it can't turn fast enough to fight off a circling Medium or even a faster Heavy. Now it's just an under-armored lumbering Assault. You're better off taking a Highlander or an Atlas, which handle as badly, but at least have the additional armor and tanking capability.

Incidentally, I never pop-tarted in my Victors. I used them for brawling, and the JJs mostly for helping to get around hilly maps.

#28 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostMister D, on 08 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Probably another butthurt victim of Popmeta, still not an issue with the Victor alone.

IMO still not a problem with these mechs.

Its the op nature of the meta combo that's forcing these changes.

I can smash things just as easily in a Thunderbolt or Dragon with the PPC/AC combo, just Victor made is slightly easier to get around terrain because it has jets.

If I want to play in a similar mech, the next best thing down is the CTF-3D or -IM which is still capable of the exact same meta build.

The global change to JJ did enough to hurt poptarting already, even mediums are noticeably affected.

Nobody is brave enough to push the issue or to admit that PPC's and AC's need some changes, not nerfs (as PGI does it), just changes to move away from the insta-murder these weapons have become.

A good start would be looking at torso twist range moreso than twist speed, with the 2x bonus's applied Assaults have a huge twist range + their arms.

2/4 or the VTR variants have only +/- 10 degrees on its arms, and those are the brawlers.. How the .... is a pilot going to cover his CT when you have that w/ the now ******** turn speed?



I think de-syncing AC5 and PPC velocity some would help alot, and then buffing short range weapons (SRMs, pulse lasers, lb10) to make sure jump snipers get steamrolled when a mech with a close range loadout weapon can get close.

But I digress..... this thread is about the Victor and that -20% should be -10% at most, maybe even -5%.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 April 2014 - 11:43 AM.


#29 DeathlyEyes

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:24 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:



I think de-syncing AC5 and PPC velocity some would help alot, and then buffing short range weapons (SRMs, pulse lasers, lb10) to make sure jump snipers get steamrolled when a mech with a close range loadout weapon can get close.

But I digress..... this thread is about the Victor and that -20% should be -10% at most, maybe even -5%.

I still don't know how PPC's can have a slower travel speed than Gauss Rifles. It just doesn't make sense. A PPC fires particles that are really realy light, the kinetic damage from them needs to come from the Velocity not the mass. Gauss Rifle rounds weigh a lot yet travel so fast. They could easily bump PPC travel speed up and solve all of this.

Inb4 Autocannon velocities are nerfed to the point of uselessness.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 08 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.


#30 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:34 PM

I agree this nurfing of the Victor needs to be fixed to make it inline with the agile 80ton assault it is supposed to be. At 80tons it should turn and twist fast than it does. It should not handle like a 100 ton mech but like an 80 ton mech. In other words more like a heavy than an Atlas. The JJ nurf was already a big hit to the Victor and then these changes were just overkill.

Also along with most of you I never pop tarted in my Victor either. I used it as a fast brawler. Now that has been nurfed and the pop tarting still works fine.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 08 April 2014 - 12:46 PM.


#31 DeathlyEyes

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:46 PM

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 08 April 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Also along with most of you I never pop tarted in my Victor either. I used it as a fast brawler. Now that has been nurfed and the pop tarting still works fine.

I am guilty of using my Victor as a poptart. I enjoy Poptarting, that's what I did in Mechwarrior 4. I also really enjoyed this game before the terrain movement penalties and would use Atlases and Jagers, mechs that were ground bound. After terrain movement penalties and some of the new maps released I just stopped using those mechs and converted to mostly poptarting.

I am mostly mad to see others suffer because the Dev team keeps aiming and hitting the wrong thing like Vice President Cheney, haha it censored his first name. I would like to see poptart utility lessen and get a more diverse range of Mechs. Mechwarrior 4 did a lot of things right when working as a team. Brawlers were dangerous and you could use them in competitive league matches if you knew what you were doing. I really like Mechwarrior and really want to see it succeed, but driving players away by drastically changing things after the initial point of sale is how to kill a community. It kills any faith built up, especially if the changes don't even correct the original issue at hand.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 08 April 2014 - 01:39 PM.


#32 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

View PostAppogee, on 08 April 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:


Incidentally, I never pop-tarted in my Victors. I used them for brawling, and the JJs mostly for helping to get around hilly maps.


Same.
I even enjoyed dropping in STD engines in my vic before this change, even when it meant less up front firepower, it was always a hell of a surprise to my oponent when he blew off my torso, and I just kept coming at him :) memories..

#33 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

I agree Deatheyes. Brawlers, snipers etc should all be viable and all levels of play.

#34 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

Well according to Russ on twitter, we will not see a re-assessment of Victor nerfs until after the 3/3/3/3 Launch Module patch of April 29.

#35 DeathlyEyes

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 08 April 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well according to Russ on twitter, we will not see a re-assessment of Victor nerfs until after the 3/3/3/3 Launch Module patch of April 29.

UGH.....

#36 Wraith 1

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:41 PM

The Atlas makes a great brawler with its torso twist speeds, I'm sure the Victor can get by with its 80KPH+ speeds and 1T JJs.

#37 aniviron

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:49 PM

As a Victor brawler I am pretty disappointed in the agility nerfs, but I have to chuckle at:

"So... has the same walking and turning speed as the Victor but has 35% faster moving torso and 10% faster arms?? why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor?? I have no idea. Even more mysterious, when compared to the Victor with a maxed 385 engine, is its torso speed: Torso Yaw is 5°/s faster and Torso Pitch 3°/s faster... again why? isn't the Victor supposed to be the most agile of the two?"

Why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor? Could it be because the Victor is literally better in every single other possible aspect? The Victor has a bigger engine cap, jump jets, better hardpoints, better hardpoint locations, and better hitboxes. The one single possible reason to run an Awesome is because you enjoy the 9M for its mobility, but the Victor was better than the 9M at that, too.

And this gets to the root of the problem: the Victor really is pretty great at everything, or it was. So yeah, it's frustrating that it's no longer as good, but there was a reason it was done. Personally, I feel like the issue isn't that the Victor is too slow now, it's that all the other assaults are too fast. Do the same thing to the Atlas, Stalker, Battlemaster, and Banshee that happened to the Victor, and it becomes the go-to assault for mobility again.

#38 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:56 PM

View Postaniviron, on 08 April 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

As a Victor brawler I am pretty disappointed in the agility nerfs, but I have to chuckle at:

"So... has the same walking and turning speed as the Victor but has 35% faster moving torso and 10% faster arms?? why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor?? I have no idea. Even more mysterious, when compared to the Victor with a maxed 385 engine, is its torso speed: Torso Yaw is 5°/s faster and Torso Pitch 3°/s faster... again why? isn't the Victor supposed to be the most agile of the two?"

Why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor? Could it be because the Victor is literally better in every single other possible aspect? The Victor has a bigger engine cap, jump jets, better hardpoints, better hardpoint locations, and better hitboxes. The one single possible reason to run an Awesome is because you enjoy the 9M for its mobility, but the Victor was better than the 9M at that, too.

And this gets to the root of the problem: the Victor really is pretty great at everything, or it was. So yeah, it's frustrating that it's no longer as good, but there was a reason it was done. Personally, I feel like the issue isn't that the Victor is too slow now, it's that all the other assaults are too fast. Do the same thing to the Atlas, Stalker, Battlemaster, and Banshee that happened to the Victor, and it becomes the go-to assault for mobility again.


Can we just agree it would be fair to bring the Victor up to -10% instead of -20%? Isn't that enough? Just so it twists faster than an HGN?

Making Assaults more sluggish makes lights way too hard to track. Let's avoid that. And yeah they could at least give the Awesome better hitboxes, I don't know why they haven't addressed that if its such a problem. I am now on a vendetta to prove that the 9M is viable with a big XL and 3 PPCs.

In any case, Russ tweeted that they would not be assessing Victor balance until after the 3/3/3/3 Launch Module patch of April 29th so we won't be seeing any changes.

#39 A Man In A Can

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:39 PM

View Postaniviron, on 08 April 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor? Could it be because the Victor is literally better in every single other possible aspect? The Victor has a bigger engine cap, jump jets, better hardpoints, better hardpoint locations, and better hitboxes. The one single possible reason to run an Awesome is because you enjoy the 9M for its mobility, but the Victor was better than the 9M at that, too.

Yup. By nerfing the Victor they indirectly buffed the Awesome, making the Awesome the king of Assault flexibility for the same engine rating. And by god it had better be better than the other assaults at something considering all the other downsides it has.

So I see no problem. If you want a flexible 80 tonner, take an Awesome. If you want a jumping 80 tonner, take a Victor. If you want the heaviest flexible jumping mech, take a Cataphract.

#40 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:51 PM

View PostMechwarrior Mousse, on 08 April 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yup. By nerfing the Victor they indirectly buffed the Awesome, making the Awesome the king of Assault flexibility for the same engine rating. And by god it had better be better than the other assaults at something considering all the other downsides it has.

So I see no problem. If you want a flexible 80 tonner, take an Awesome. If you want a jumping 80 tonner, take a Victor. If you want the heaviest flexible jumping mech, take a Cataphract.


The problem is that its an 80 ton mech that torso twists like an Atlas. If you can't recognize that then there's no point in discussing it further.

Giving it a 10% reduction in twist speed and arm speed is acceptable to give the Awesome an advantage in one aspect. 20% is excessive. You can't seriously argue that can you? Is there any other mech in this game that has seen such a huge nerf?

Don't punish the Victor because they gave the Awesome horrible hitboxes. You guys are comparing its effectiveness to arguably the worst Assault in the game. We were comparing torso twist speeds to it because its the only other 80 ton mech in the game to show how wildly off the Victors twist speed is. Not saying it has to be equal, but 20% is too much.





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