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2 Clan Mechs Dead On Arrival?


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#21 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I am happy with the LBX build...I use the other weapons that do 30 damage to strip armor and the LBX to crit internals...it suits my needs just fine, and in the battlemaster, I will keep the speed and better torso twist rate.

The LBX being good at critical hits is a common misconception. Yes, it has a multiplier that makes it more likely to deal a crit, but your crits are spread out between multiple pellets AND each pellet isn't guarenteed to hit the same component, which means it takes longer to destroy a certain item than what the weapon's on-paper stats suggest. Coincidentally, the AC/10 deals just enough damage in a single critical hit to instantly destroy almost any component it manages to crit.

And that aside, it's pretty much always better to simply kill an enemy mech outright than simply removing a few components. Killing the mech is the same as removing every single one of its components, and is much faster.


View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Your shadow hawk would be eaten alive by 2 Kit Foxes packing 2xSSRM6s with nothing else on them...*yawn*

SSRMs are notorious for spreading damage across well armored targets, and my Shad has enough damage output to rip apart mechs larger than itself (2 AC/2 + 1 LL). Those Clan lights aren't fast enough to mess up my aim, so they're gonna have a bad time.


View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Storm Crow is a good mech, not disputing that...but why use something like that for a non-skirmisher build when it would be far better at it, and the lights are perfectly suited for ranged hit and run tactcs. These lights are not meant to be anti-light, they are, in fact, for hunting bigger mechs in packs and using speed to their advantage. Which they are perfectly well suited for...

*The issue is the Strength of the light chassis in this game is exaggerated to the point that they are absurd and unbalanced...but guess what...all the PGI guys play light chassis, what should you expect? Why do you think it took so long to "fix" the broken hit boxes on the spider? Because they were lazy? (possibly) Because they played it while it was OP too? (likely)


No, they're not suited for attacking larger mechs. A larger mech has far more armor and firepower than they do, and the Fox/Adder aren't fast enough to reliably evade that incoming fire. They will be crushed in one or two alpha strikes.

You also keep missing the fact that the Storm Crow is still 100% superior to the Kit Fox and Adder. They cannot outrun the 'Crow. They cannot out-armor it. They cannot out-gun it. They are flat-out inferior, in every possible criteria. There is literally no possible role the Kit Fox or Adder can perform that the Storm Crow cannot before equal or better. Any hit and run tactic you do with those lights, can be replicated and surpassed using the Stormcrow.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#22 Gyrok

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM

I brawl in my Battlemaster, at under 200m, the pellet spread is minimal.

Ok, now we can argue they have more weapons since they still have 10T of pod space left, we can give them a UAC5 each with plenty of ammo...still like your odds?

You make the mistake of assuming they would be up close on assault mechs while carrying 2 ERPPC with 880m + range...this is a grave mistake.

Edited by Gyrok, 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#23 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:49 AM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I brawl in my Battlemaster, at under 200m, the pellet spread is minimal.

The pellet spread for an AC/10 or AC/5 is zero at all ranges.


View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ok, now we can argue they have more weapons since they still have 10T of pod space left, we can give them a UAC5 each with plenty of ammo...still like your odds?

Why do they have 10 tons of pod space left? Where did you get that from?

And yes, I do still like my odds, because I can routinely take on heavy/assault mechs and heavily damage or even kill them on a consistent basis. Against those lights, they will drop like flies because of their low armor and low speed. If we assume stock armor on the Fox, it will have 18 points of armor on its CT. I can cut through that in seconds. The Adder is much better off with 32 points, but it will still be in for some hurtin'. In single combat they stand no chance, and in a 2-on-1 there's a good chance one of them will end up dead (most likely the Fox) or at the very least I can tear them a new one before I go down.


View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

You make the mistake of assuming they would be up close on assault mechs while carrying 2 ERPPC with 880m + range...this is a grave mistake.

I don't assume any particular range bracket or type of enemy target. I assume they are facing competent pilots of any class who know how to hit light mechs going at 150+ kph, so ones that go 97.2 kph won't be an issue for them.

Here are the facts for each mech...

Adder
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 16 tons
Armor: 6 tons FF stock (almost maxed)

Kit Fox
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 16 tons
Armor: 4 tons FF stock (equal to an MWO maxed-out Locust)

Stormcrow
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 23 tons
Armor: 9.5 tons FF stock (almost maxed out)


I don't see any benefits of taking either light over the Ryoken.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2014 - 10:13 AM.


#24 ALKALIN3

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:02 AM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 05 April 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

I have seen several posts "Clan Lights-Dead on Arrival?" So I decided to analyze Clan Mechs vs Inner Sphere.

There are 2 Clan Lights. 2. Compared to Inner Sphere- both with way, way more firepower and probably more armor.

On Clan light has 2 Gauss Rifle equal PPCs. That is right, a Gausspault, with infinite ammo, much faster, with no charge time. IMO---OP.

Then there is the Kit Fox. LB-5X. ER Large Laser that does more30% damage at longer range for less weight and crit space. Thenb Streak SRM-4. A "Small Pulse Laser" with the damage almost of a medium laser.

These are dead on arrival cause they go 10 kph slower? I doubt it. As an Atlas pilot, a back hit from any of these could any my career in one alpha. No wonder PGI had to mix Clan and IS mechs.


As usual, members of the community go all knee jerk calling mechs "DOA" and such...pretty sure a lot of people thought that about the shadowhawk and went nuts about how awesome the treb was gonna be...how about we try something new?! Let's try the wait n see approach. If you are versed in TT and lore you'll already know that clans built their mechs to square up and fight, not skitter about and run n hide. The mech is only as good as the pilot. If you pilot the mech wrong, you die.

#25 Gyrok

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:20 AM

View PostFupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

The pellet spread for an AC/10 or AC/5 is zero at all ranges.



Why do they have 10 tons of pod space left? Where did you get that from?

And yes, I do still like my odds, because I can routinely take on heavy/assault mechs and heavily damage or even kill them on a consistent basis. Against those lights, they will drop like flies because of their low armor and low speed. If we assume stock armor on the Fox, it will have 18 points of armor on its CT. I can cut through that in seconds. The Adder is much better off with 32 points, but it will still be in for some hurtin'. In single combat they stand no chance, and in a 2-on-1 there's a good chance one of them will end up dead (most likely the Fox) or at the very least I can tear them a new one before I go down.



I don't assume any particular range bracket or type of enemy target. I assume they are facing competent pilots of any class who know how to hit light mechs going at 150+ kph, so ones that go 97.2 kph won't be an issue for them.

Here are the facts for each mech...

Adder
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 16 tons
Armor: 6 tons FF stock (almost maxed)

Kit Fox
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 16 tons
Armor: 4 tons FF stock (equal to an MWO maxed-out Locust)

Stormcrow
Speed: 97.2 kph stock
Pod Space: 23 tons
Armor: 9.5 tons FF stock (almost maxed out)


I don't see any benefits of taking either light over the Ryoken.


The pod space quotes you mentioned above prove my point.

Additionally...the stormcrow is well suited to brawling as well as ranged combat. The one thing you discount is a much smaller profile making them harder to hit at range. The stormcrow will be big...probably as big as a cataphract or maybe even the victor...while the adder will likely be cicada sized at most. This smaller profile allows for sniping and ducking at range with little fear of reprisal from the enemy.

Edited by Gyrok, 08 April 2014 - 10:22 AM.


#26 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

The pod space quotes you mentioned above prove my point.

How so? Do you mean the part about both lights having 16 tons, and the Crow having 23 tons?


View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Additionally...the stormcrow is well suited to brawling as well as ranged combat. The one thing you discount is a much smaller profile making them harder to hit at range. The stormcrow will be big...probably as big as a victor...while the adder will likely be cicada sized at most. This smaller profile allows for sniping and ducking at range with little fear of reprisal from the enemy.

I can take potshots with a lot of different mechs of many different sizes, and manage to scurry back to cover before getting hit. This includes larger mechs like the Victor -- yes, firing from over cover or around it, not just jumping up and down poptart style. My mediums especially have little to no issues because of their naturally high agility that lets them get out of the way faster, and the Stormcrow is probably going to inherit the medium class's maneuverability for obvious reasons.

Yes, the lights will probably be slightly faster at it, but the Crow will be more than adequate for peeking around corners unless they make it hilariously large and/or slow. It can also pack on bigger/more gunz to fire for a bigger burst than the lights can do. I still see little to no reason to use either light, unless maybe PGI decides to perform an act of mercy and let us have the ECM variant of the Kit Fox.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2014 - 10:32 AM.


#27 CHAOS ALPHA

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:47 AM

I believe that it is the speed and size of the light that allows it to be competitive, even to an assault. BUT, this has everything to do with the skill of the pilots. A really good lt pilot versus a not so goo aslt pilot evens the odds.

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#28 Gyrok

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:00 AM

View PostFupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

How so? Do you mean the part about both lights having 16 tons, and the Crow having 23 tons?



I can take potshots with a lot of different mechs of many different sizes, and manage to scurry back to cover before getting hit. This includes larger mechs like the Victor -- yes, firing from over cover or around it, not just jumping up and down poptart style. My mediums especially have little to no issues because of their naturally high agility that lets them get out of the way faster, and the Stormcrow is probably going to inherit the medium class's maneuverability for obvious reasons.

Yes, the lights will probably be slightly faster at it, but the Crow will be more than adequate for peeking around corners unless they make it hilariously large and/or slow. It can also pack on bigger/more gunz to fire for a bigger burst than the lights can do. I still see little to no reason to use either light, unless maybe PGI decides to perform an act of mercy and let us have the ECM variant of the Kit Fox.


2 things;

1 the lights will be more agile.

2 if they do heatsinks the way they have said, we cannot be sure how many heatsinks are movable/removable. In this case, if all 22 heatsinks on the stormcrow are "hardwired" into the chassis, then you will be starved for crit slots to fit anything in those 23 tons of pod space other than the stock loadout it comes with specifically...

#29 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:07 AM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:


2 things;

1 the lights will be more agile.

2 if they do heatsinks the way they have said, we cannot be sure how many heatsinks are movable/removable. In this case, if all 22 heatsinks on the stormcrow are "hardwired" into the chassis, then you will be starved for crit slots to fit anything in those 23 tons of pod space other than the stock loadout it comes with specifically...

The problem is that their relatively low engine size (for their class) makes it harder to capitalize on their slightly faster acceleration/turning/etc. As a somewhat unrelated but related case study, the Locust right now has crazy high agility. It's basically as agile as infantry from a normal FPS. And even then, it's not a very good mech. Of course, the Clan lights get a lot more gunz and the Adder gets more armor, but they have far less speed.

Another thing to consider is that mech agility is somewhat tied to a mech's engine rating right now, i.e. bigger engine = faster turning and stuff.


As for heatsinks, the Ryoken's base config only comes with 10 of them hardwired. Here is the Tabletop record sheet for it:
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/4955.pdf

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2014 - 11:08 AM.


#30 Gyrok

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:39 AM

I know about the TT rules for it, but PGI seem to toss that by the wayside frequently...could be bad news for us :)

#31 CyclonerM

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostDONTOR, on 08 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

They will be more like 50-70KPH slower.. not 10KPH.

Only if you consider a light with max engine and speed tweak. Otherwise, it would be only about 50 KPH difference at best.

Quote

Both of the Clan lights are going to be objectively inferior to the Stormcrow, because the SC has identical speed, more armor, and more pod space. Using either Clan light is literally gimping yourself, and any competent Jenner/Firestarter pilot will annihilate you because their lights are actually built the way lights are supposed to be built.

Neg. They are not always supposed to be extremely fast. Acutally, many designs are built for a unique purpose (Raven, EW 'Mech; Firestarter, combat engineer 'Mech..), but in MWO the possibility of changing the engine rating made them all the same, piloted in the same way and filling the same role.

Quote


The light class has literally only 1 advantage over the other classes: speed. That is all. Trying to build one that is slow and boating guns is pure lunacy. You should be driving a medium in that case, not a light. It's sort of like the opposite of assault pilots who try to shoehorn in an XL400, when they should just be in a damn heavy or even a medium instead of sacrificing their firepower for a tiny bit of speed.

That, and small profile. Anyway, if you think they were crazy when they designed these OmniMechs, try to think that they are lights 'Mech (that usually cost less than mediums in terms of c-bills and resource needed) but with the firepower of a medium. I think a Kit Fox or Adder pilot would not be mad trying to engage a Nova in single combat. Not at all. Their speed would be enough to circle it and get its back (remember it has a very narrow torso twist canonically, thought the Kit Fox has no torso twist at all supposedly). Once, in MWLL, i engaged in very close combat a 40 tons Chimera, a medium 'Mech often equipped with short-mid range weaponry IIRC. I was piloting a damaged Kit Fox and i killed him.

Quote

Its simple really:

1) omnimechs SHOULD be allowed to change engine rating (i.e. change from a 280XL to a 300XL)
2) omnimechs SHOULD NOT be allowed to change engine type (i.e. cant change from XL to STD or vice versa)

It is simple really:
1)standard BattleMechs SHOULD NOT be allowed to change engine rating (not so easily at least; it should require much time and money at very least)

A point i want to make again: the OmniMechs are not too nerfed, the BattleMechs are too buffed!

#32 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:14 PM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

I know about the TT rules for it, but PGI seem to toss that by the wayside frequently...could be bad news for us :)

Usually their deviations are with weapons and stuff, not the stock loadouts. I wouldn't expect them to suddenly throw on 22 DHS on the Ryoken out of nowhere...

#33 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:21 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 08 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Neg. They are not always supposed to be extremely fast. Acutally, many designs are built for a unique purpose (Raven, EW 'Mech; Firestarter, combat engineer 'Mech..), but in MWO the possibility of changing the engine rating made them all the same, piloted in the same way and filling the same role.

Perhaps I worded my other post poorly. When I said "supposed to" I was referring to lights that are designed for optimal effectiveness. Yes, there are many examples of slow lights all over the place in the lore, and all of them are outclassed by mediums that go the same speed with more armor and firepower. Just because you can build them that way, doesn't mean you should build them that way...


View PostCyclonerM, on 08 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

That, and small profile. Anyway, if you think they were crazy when they designed these OmniMechs, try to think that they are lights 'Mech (that usually cost less than mediums in terms of c-bills and resource needed) but with the firepower of a medium. I think a Kit Fox or Adder pilot would not be mad trying to engage a Nova in single combat. Not at all. Their speed would be enough to circle it and get its back (remember it has a very narrow torso twist canonically, thought the Kit Fox has no torso twist at all supposedly). Once, in MWLL, i engaged in very close combat a 40 tons Chimera, a medium 'Mech often equipped with short-mid range weaponry IIRC. I was piloting a damaged Kit Fox and i killed him.

A few things:

1. Small size isn't that great if it's not accompanied by at least somewhat fast speed. The prime example of this is that legging is so effective of a tactic. It doesn't reduce a light's profile, it just makes them slower. And as we all know, legged lights are basically already dead.

2. 97.2 kph (stock) isn't that fast. Staying behind a moderately maneuverable medium simply won't be possible at those speeds. I could even keep up with Jenners and Firestarters with my pre-nerf Victor (in terms of keeping them in my firing arc).

3. The Chimera isn't exactly a good medium, and there's a chance you were just a better pilot than he was. But we can't make balancing decisions based on large piloting skill rifts, or else every weapon in the game would be considered effective -- i.e. you can kill a noob with SRM2 but that doesn't make the SRM2 actually good.

#34 CyclonerM

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:38 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Perhaps I worded my other post poorly. When I said "supposed to" I was referring to lights that are designed for optimal effectiveness. Yes, there are many examples of slow lights all over the place in the lore, and all of them are outclassed by mediums that go the same speed with more armor and firepower. Just because you can build them that way, doesn't mean you should build them that way...

Actually they should, because i how said, some 'Mechs were designed for different roles that do not translate well in MWO (no forests to burn for the Firestarter..) but this does not mean they were not good at doing what they were actually supposed to do :)

#35 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 08 April 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Actually they should, because i how said, some 'Mechs were designed for different roles that do not translate well in MWO (no forests to burn for the Firestarter..) but this does not mean they were not good at doing what they were actually supposed to do :)

A 6/9 MP medium with Flamers would probably be better at starting fires than the Firestarter. :D

#36 Gyrok

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:45 PM

View PostFupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Usually their deviations are with weapons and stuff, not the stock loadouts. I wouldn't expect them to suddenly throw on 22 DHS on the Ryoken out of nowhere...


Well, we expected many things from this game so far, and have been delivered few in those terms...so I suppose we must wait to see what is truly the better mech.

#37 aniviron

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:46 PM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 05 April 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

I have seen several posts "Clan Lights-Dead on Arrival?" So I decided to analyze Clan Mechs vs Inner Sphere.

There are 2 Clan Lights. 2. Compared to Inner Sphere- both with way, way more firepower and probably more armor.

On Clan light has 2 Gauss Rifle equal PPCs. That is right, a Gausspault, with infinite ammo, much faster, with no charge time. IMO---OP.

Then there is the Kit Fox. LB-5X. ER Large Laser that does more30% damage at longer range for less weight and crit space. Thenb Streak SRM-4. A "Small Pulse Laser" with the damage almost of a medium laser.

These are dead on arrival cause they go 10 kph slower? I doubt it. As an Atlas pilot, a back hit from any of these could any my career in one alpha. No wonder PGI had to mix Clan and IS mechs.


10kph slower? The listed speed for a Kitfox is 97kph, while Jenners and Ravens do 152kph. Not sure how 152-97 = 10, but okay, sure.

Second, they don't actually have "way more armor" than inner sphere lights. They have exactly the same amount of armor as inner sphere lights. The construction rules for how much armor a mech can take is based solely off of its weight. Please note, however, that PGI has mentioned that they are considering capping clan mechs at their stock armor levels, which are often significantly lower than maximum.

Next, I wouldn't exactly call an ER PPC a weapon with no drawbacks. I note that you're not apoplectic about current ER PPCs, and clan ER PPCs probably aren't going to be that great for the same reason that IS PPCs currently see no use- they generate ridiculous amounts of heat. Please note that the clans lack a standard PPC as well, the only version they use is the ER, so there is no low-heat fallback weapon.

Finally, PGI has already confirmed that they will be lowering range and damage while increasing heat on all clan weapons, so the armament advantage is still up in the air, but likely to be less significant than you think.

So if you want to be mad about things, go ahead, but please bother looking up some numbers before posting so you don't look so foolish next time, please.

#38 DONTOR

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:56 PM

View PostKhobai, on 08 April 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Its simple really:

1) omnimechs SHOULD be allowed to change engine rating (i.e. change from a 280XL to a 300XL)
2) omnimechs SHOULD NOT be allowed to change engine type (i.e. cant change from XL to STD or vice versa)

I would LOVE this!

#39 FupDup

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostGyrok, on 08 April 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:


Well, we expected many things from this game so far, and have been delivered few in those terms...so I suppose we must wait to see what is truly the better mech.

I'm just as cynical as many other forumites, if not more so because I used to have one of those "we totally know what we're doing" signature banners, but right now we have some decent evidence that Piggy will be basing the Clan Omnimech base chassis off of what they were in BT. It's not a guarantee by any means, and maybe we might get something crazy like an XL400 Daishi or Mad Cat with half armor, but I'm not expecting anything like those.

#40 DONTOR

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:14 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 08 April 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Only if you consider a light with max engine and speed tweak. Otherwise, it would be only about 50 KPH difference at best.

A point i want to make again: the OmniMechs are not too nerfed, the BattleMechs are too buffed!


50KPH is a MASSIVE speed difference, and can be the difference between a good or bad light mech (currently)
Im not saying Clan light mechs will be DOA, but I am very curious how they could possibly overcome such a huge difference in speed. Which is why I cant wait for the freakin Mist Lynx.

And ya battlemechs probably are too buffed, but it is what it is I guess.

They also stated that adding PPCs / ACs will lock your arms, meaning the Adder and Kitfox will be even less agile.

Edited by DONTOR, 08 April 2014 - 01:17 PM.






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