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Some Questions About The Clans


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#21 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:11 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

A XL Fusion on a clan doesn't turn it into a glass cannon....oh hell he has shot of my left torso - great now i can fire all my weapons without danger of overheating.

Great now i have lost half of my firepower! A different way to see it, quiaff? ;)

View PostCraig Steele, on 14 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:


Right, so you prioritise firepower, np. Cyclone (might) prioritise defensive.

The point is, you're only right from one angle.

He is not incorrect.

Thank you for your support but actually i prioritize a balanced build that has a good firepower but does survive long enough to deal its potential damage :unsure:

#22 Karl Streiger

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:11 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 14 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:


Right, so you prioritise firepower, np. Cyclone (might) prioritise defensive.

The point is, you're only right from one angle.

He is not incorrect.


OK i can accept that.... but wait - i can't ceasefire without a last shot....

A clan warrior that prioritize defense while a IS merc would prioritize firepower? Strange times we live in

#23 Craig Steele

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:


OK i can accept that.... but wait - i can't ceasefire without a last shot....

A clan warrior that prioritize defense while a IS merc would prioritize firepower? Strange times we live in


Clan warriors prioritise victory, and endurance is a part of that.

There are many clan's that embrace heavy and assault mechs for ability to soak up enemy firepower.

Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Direwolf are all examples of mech designs around that philosophy, they all maximise armour.

Just as there are some mechs that emphasise speed (like the Executioner and Ice Ferret) and some that emphasise firepower such as the Hellbringer.

Different Strokes, different folks. ;)

#24 Nathan Foxbane

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:08 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 13 April 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

As to your question, PGI are not following canon, IS mechs already have far more customization than was ever seen in Canon. For intensive purposes the mechs we have now are Omni mechs with only the slighest of restrictions.

That is not true to Omnimech capability. It is true to Battlemech capability. Any Battlemech could be customized to the limits of the maximum allowable chassis weight. That such customization was expensive, time consuming, and potentially carried risk to the structural integrity of the 'Mech if rushed did not prevent such customization. Omnimech capability is no risk, rapid reconfiguration of a fixed maximum chassis pod weight and unallocated critical slots. Any modification that alters any fixed components turns an Omnimech into a Battlemech. PGI may be willing to break that rule to a limited degree by allowing armor value and possibly engine rating changes. In and of themselves a fair balance to the extensive customization currently available to Battlemechs without risk of failure or waiting period. Lore is being sacrificed (in as small amounts as possible) in the name of making an enjoyable game.

#25 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:16 AM

View PostNathan Foxbane, on 14 April 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

That is not true to Omnimech capability. It is true to Battlemech capability. Any Battlemech could be customized to the limits of the maximum allowable chassis weight. That such customization was expensive, time consuming, and potentially carried risk to the structural integrity of the 'Mech if rushed did not prevent such customization. Omnimech capability is no risk, rapid reconfiguration of a fixed maximum chassis pod weight and unallocated critical slots. Any modification that alters any fixed components turns an Omnimech into a Battlemech. PGI may be willing to break that rule to a limited degree by allowing armor value and possibly engine rating changes. In and of themselves a fair balance to the extensive customization currently available to Battlemechs without risk of failure or waiting period. Lore is being sacrificed (in as small amounts as possible) in the name of making an enjoyable game.


Actually you should add that some modifications (like structure or armor type) should need a factory-level facility.

Just to make sure everyone understands how easily customizable are they compared to what they should be.. The Omnies are not nerfed, it is the BattleMechs that are buffed..

#26 Skylarr

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:


If and only if i buy ClanMechs for C-Bills - i don't care about the engine size - the DireWolf, the StormCrow and Thor already have the engine size i want to have.

And i wouldn't maximize the fire power - on the Thor i would add armor....on the Wolf more heatsinks less weapons....and the Stormcrow- well the Stormcrow is already perfect

Quote

http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/
[color=orange]Clan Technology[/color]
  • Clan Endo Steel
    • Provides the same weight saving as Inner Sphere Endo Steel.
    • Occupies 7 critical slots on the 'Mech. (Compared to 14 slots for Inner Sphere Endo Steel.)
    • On an OmniMech, the location of the critical slots is fixed.
    • On a standard 'Mech, the location of the critical slots is dynamic.
  • Clan Ferro-Fibrous
    • Provides 1.2 times more armor points per ton than standard armor. (Inner Sphere Ferro-Fibrous provides 1.12 times more armor points than standard armor.)
    • Occupies 7 critical slots on the 'Mech. (Compared to 14 slots for Inner Sphere Ferro-Fibrous.)
    • On an OmniMech, the location of the critical slots is fixed.
    • On a standard 'Mech, the location of the critical slots is dynamic.

Quote

[color=orange]OmniMech Rules and Limitations[/color]
  • Internal structure type.
    • Standard vs Endo Steel.
  • The location of any critical slots occupied by the internal structure.
    • i.e. Instead of freely floating as they do in standard 'Mechs, slots occupied by Endo Steel are assigned specific locations that cannot be changed. (The slots still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location [left arm, etc] is fixed.)
  • Armor type.
    • Standard vs Ferro-Fibrous.
  • The location of any critical slots occupied by the armor.
    • i.e. Instead of freely floating as they do in standard 'Mechs, slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous are assigned specific locations that cannot be changed. (The slots still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location [left arm, etc] is fixed.)
  • Heat sink type.
    • Single vs Double.
  • A minimum number of heat sinks (varies per chassis) have specific locations they must occupy and cannot be moved or removed in any way.
    • Customization involving adding additional heat sinks beyond the minimum number is allowed.
    • The heat sinks still compact to provide as much continuous free space as possible. Just the location (left arm, etc) is fixed.
  • Heat sinks cannot be added within the engine unless they are part of the minimum number that is included in the base configuration.
    • Canon OmniMechs generally place at least the 10 heat sinks required for all 'Mechs as part of the base configuration, but they do not always place enough to fill extra space in engines rated 275 or greater.


Not sure were it was stated. I am sure someone knows were to find it. You can redistribute existing armor point around. You cannot add additional armor points.

#27 CyclonerM

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

I think it was confirmed on Twitter that we will be able to tweak the number of armor points .

#28 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

View PostSkylarr, on 14 April 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

[/list]
Not sure were it was stated. I am sure someone knows were to find it. You can redistribute existing armor point around. You cannot add additional armor points.



Incorrect. It was stated, and clarified in the follow up that you absolutely can add or remove armor. You just cannot change the type.

#29 Craig Steele

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:47 PM

View PostNathan Foxbane, on 14 April 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

It is true to Battlemech capability. Any Battlemech could be customized to the limits of the maximum allowable chassis weight. That such customization was expensive, time consuming, and potentially carried risk to the structural integrity of the 'Mech if rushed did not prevent such customization.

Lore is being sacrificed (in as small amounts as possible) in the name of making an enjoyable game.


So not available to the average pilot in the field as MW:O allows yes? What company in canon displayed the level of customization that we enjoy every match?

Lore has been thrown away in the name of making an enjoyable game.

IS mechs are customizable to the level of Omni mechs at the press of a button and nominal cost. Pilots can "own" hundreds of Battlemechs for their individual pleasure. Mechs are not restricted to factions, there is no "flavour" to any House. Atals DD-C lances are just as probable in Liao as Steiner. Weapon effect treatments (AC, PPC) are often unlike those described in canon. The list goes on and on.

Is it a better game? How would we know? Where is the canon based game to compare it to?

Enjoy MW:O for what it is sure, but it's affiliation with BT Lore is limited to names and general body shape.

#30 CyclonerM

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:09 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 14 April 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

but it's affiliation with BT Lore is limited to names and general body shape.

And you do not think it is a very sad thing at very least?

I do. Now, i do not want to troll/flame/being negative, but i have read some stuff about Star Citizen and CR has all the intention to blend lore, immersion and gameplay in a way that ensures fun while keeping the game universe interesting and fascinating.

Something about your character dying after a number of "deaths", for example, to keep things interesting and some challenge for the player. No checkpoints during missions in Squadron 42 (the single player campaign) while most of the games today never make you try again a mission from the start if you fail it. Ah, the good times of Ace Combat ..

They are all things that the average casual player would not like because they would make the game a bit more realistic and hard. The average casual player also does not like being told "Because it's in the lore" and this makes me really sad. He can go playing WoT if you are not interested in the BTU.

Edited by CyclonerM, 15 April 2014 - 04:09 AM.


#31 MisterPlanetarian

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 14 April 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I think it was confirmed on Twitter that we will be able to tweak the number of armor points .


This is mandatory otherwise some mechs like the Summoner and the Kit Fox simply won't work in MWO.

#32 CyclonerM

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:45 AM

View PostMisterPlanetarian, on 15 April 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:


This is mandatory otherwise some mechs like the Summoner and the Kit Fox simply won't work in MWO.

Yeah, they broke too much the rules for BattleMechs and now they have to break them for Omnies too..

#33 Dakkaface

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:32 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 15 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yeah, they broke too much the rules for BattleMechs and now they have to break them for Omnies too..

As Pariah has mentioned(repeatedly, in more than one thread), it's less that they 'broke the rules' for standard mechs and more that they allow us to do full factory refits at no labor or time cost. Extensive customization has always been a thing for Mechwarrior games, and frankly I prefer the current system for standard mechs than having some kind of system that costs you an amount of C-bills scaled to the number of changes you make, and a locks your mech from use for a number of hours/days scaled to the number and significance of the changes. That kind of system is asking for a stagnant game where everyone plays them meta all the time, because it takes too much investment to try non-meta builds.

I'd even prefer if they changed the way single and double heat sinks work in the name of gameplay, so Singles actually have a use, instead of just being for lights only, and doubles being a flat upgrade. If Singles increased heat-cap and doubles increased heat-dissipation that'd be an interesting change that helps gameplay, but would be totally against lore. Lore is always going to be second to making the game fun - lore is spice, gameplay is meat. Spice makes the meat better but as anyone who's ever watched a cinnamon challenge video knows, spice on it's own is is horrible.

Honestly, from what I've heard about how they are handling Omnis - I'm happy with it. You can dial armor amount around without changing type, your engines and certain extra heat sinks are locked, you don't get 'true' omnipods that can slot anything, but you can swap around arms and legs to loadout almost any weapon config you want. In return you lose the ability to do a 'factory refit' because the whole reason omnis can swap weapons like shirts is that they're all internally identical. Armor point adjustment is still logically consistent in-game because you're just tacking a bit more on externally. The internals remain the same.

#34 _Comrade_

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:01 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 14 April 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

Incorrect. The current IS 'Mechs are even better than OmniMechs since you can change and move around every single equipment or weapon without time or money expense.

If i buy them for c-bills ( :) ) after June i will not pay anything ...


Better start grinding now, A timber wolf alone cost 24 million cbills

#35 Craig Steele

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:59 PM

View PostGrimwill, on 15 April 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Better start grinding now, A timber wolf alone cost 24 million cbills


I wondered about this the last time the cost factor was raised.

In BT, the cost represents the availability and also the relative power output of Clan tech.

In MW:O, availability is not an issue and the power output are supposedly "equivilent", so what is the reasoning for Clan mechs to be demonstrably more expensive than IS ones?

I mean if tech was what TT is and you could only buy a small number, I could understand the cost being as per BTU, but it's not going to be.

#36 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

View PostCraig Steele, on 15 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:


In MW:O, availability is not an issue and the power output are supposedly "equivilent", so what is the reasoning for Clan mechs to be demonstrably more expensive than IS ones?



Another form of time sink that indirectly encourages people to spend MC (real money) in lieu of the perceived "grind."

#37 VanillaG

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:58 PM

View PostCraig Steele, on 15 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:


I wondered about this the last time the cost factor was raised.

In BT, the cost represents the availability and also the relative power output of Clan tech.

In MW:O, availability is not an issue and the power output are supposedly "equivilent", so what is the reasoning for Clan mechs to be demonstrably more expensive than IS ones?

I mean if tech was what TT is and you could only buy a small number, I could understand the cost being as per BTU, but it's not going to be.

The Timberwolf should be about 18-20 mil based on the changes to MWO pricing. The biggest cost savings is that fact the MWO has a static price for the engine. In TT the engine cost was dependent on the weight of the mech. So the 300 engine in a Dragon cost less than the 300 engine in an Atlas.

The other thing about omni mechs is that they have a straight 25% markup over similar standard mechs. Go to Smurphys and using an Orion K as the demo put in the largest XL Engine, Endo, and Double heatsinks and you are over 14 mil. Once you put on weapons and add the 25% markup you get into the 18-20 mil price range.

#38 CyclonerM

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:34 AM

View PostGrimwill, on 15 April 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Better start grinding now, A timber wolf alone cost 24 million cbills

View PostCraig Steele, on 15 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:


I wondered about this the last time the cost factor was raised.

In BT, the cost represents the availability and also the relative power output of Clan tech.

In MW:O, availability is not an issue and the power output are supposedly "equivilent", so what is the reasoning for Clan mechs to be demonstrably more expensive than IS ones?

I mean if tech was what TT is and you could only buy a small number, I could understand the cost being as per BTU, but it's not going to be.

View PostVanillaG, on 15 April 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

The Timberwolf should be about 18-20 mil based on the changes to MWO pricing. The biggest cost savings is that fact the MWO has a static price for the engine. In TT the engine cost was dependent on the weight of the mech. So the 300 engine in a Dragon cost less than the 300 engine in an Atlas.

The other thing about omni mechs is that they have a straight 25% markup over similar standard mechs. Go to Smurphys and using an Orion K as the demo put in the largest XL Engine, Endo, and Double heatsinks and you are over 14 mil. Once you put on weapons and add the 25% markup you get into the 18-20 mil price range.


Is anyone actually thinking that that price might be referred to a conversion for the Inner Sphere and that a Clan warrior should not pay for the 'Mech he has been assigned, let alone pay THAT much? At very least Clan Wolf players with CW should pay a quite lower price because they have factories building them..ù

As you said it is a question of availability: an Inner Sphere MechWarrior would have a very very low chance to pilot a Clan OmniMech in 3050 (even later), let alone buy one, so its price is high. For a Kurita, a Dragon should not cost as much as for a Davion MechWarrior, quiaff?

Edited by CyclonerM, 16 April 2014 - 09:35 AM.


#39 VanillaG

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 16 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:


Is anyone actually thinking that that price might be referred to a conversion for the Inner Sphere and that a Clan warrior should not pay for the 'Mech he has been assigned, let alone pay THAT much? At very least Clan Wolf players with CW should pay a quite lower price because they have factories building them..ù

As you said it is a question of availability: an Inner Sphere MechWarrior would have a very very low chance to pilot a Clan OmniMech in 3050 (even later), let alone buy one, so its price is high. For a Kurita, a Dragon should not cost as much as for a Davion MechWarrior, quiaff?

Neg, the price of a mech should not be determined by the current faction of the player. Doing that only promotes faction hopping to get the best price for a mech. I have proposed in several other threads that players should receive a bonus of cbills/xp/fp or a combination of those for piloting faction mechs. A one time discount does not provide an incentive for piloting a faction specific mech long term.

The simple reality is that all Clan omni-mechs are going to be expensive because for the most part the use expensive components and there is a 25% omni tax. People tend to overlook that the main benefit of an omni is reduced repair and customization costs. If R&R is ever reintroduced omnimechs should get a discount compared standard mechs. That 25% tax is used to represent a pre-payment for lowered operating costs.

#40 General Pete

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:12 PM

This may be a little off topic, but another advantage of the clan omnimech technology was the repair time. An IS mech that took bad damage could spend a day or more in the shop as the techs were killing themselves trying to patch up chewed up equipment, like car mechanics doing auto body work I guess. The clan omnimechs could go through the shredder and get hauled into the shop, have modules swapped out plug and play, and be back on the battlefield good as new in 15 minutes. That was pretty hard on the IS forces that were shot to s**t trying to damage the clan mechs the first time.
Obviously that factor doesn't impact MWO, but maybe damage, repair time, repair cost, and supplies of ammo and equipment could become factors in CW, when they finally get it running. If they do that'll show how nightmarish the clan invasion was.





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