56 replies to this topic

[Jeffrey Wilder]

I see people complaining about how OP certain things are and how others need to be buffed up ALL THE TIME.

Now, I guess it's time to find the root of the problem.

After reviewing a million different threads on all those issues, I think the root of the problem in MOST cases are people. YES, it's the players, not the system. Not all but MOST cases.



Let's just take ECM as an example. I see people complaining about how OP it is and some say it must be buffed to overcome BAP, TAG, etc, etc. That brings me back to real time experience with ECM (in this example).

I remember dropping with 4 DDCs with ECMs on one occasion. Now, people will be very happy about that because their ECMs are going to stay alive for awhile. The result of that match is a 1-12 stomp; we lost.

On another occasion, we had 2 DCs and only left with a Raven 3L with ECM. Now, not many people will think positively of the end result. However, we went on to a win while only losing 3 mechs.


The example brings across a very valid point about the players in their respective mechs. I do agree there are short comings with certain things in life but isn't it the truth that we all make do with problems and try to make the best out of it.

In this case, the single 3L knows how to make use of the ECM and provide coverage and scout at the same time while the 4 DDCs with ECM know nuts about using it.

In essence, the ROOT of the problem is the balancing of players!

There will be ZERO problem IF you WIN a match but there WILL be TONS of complains if you LOSE one.

I know it sucks to have only a lance of high ELOs VS a whole company of them because of the ELO system in place; This is how the game works.

So stop harping on certain issues that are not a problem in the first place like LRMs, ECMs, BAPs, TAG, ACs, Lazers, boating, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Instead, just enjoy the game and have a fun time.

[El Bandito]

Foremost factor in MP game enjoyment is balance. And ECM, as well as others upset that. Hence the forum threads.

If PGI doesn't want this game to be a successful competitive game then by all means, butcher it away!

Edited by El Bandito, 13 April 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

Foremost factor in MP game enjoyment is balance. And ECM, as well as others upset that. Hence the forum threads.

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge, not to mention variety. As such, for many of us, it is indeed the player -- more so than the game -- that is the issue.

Because if people really want balance first and foremost, then all mechs should be the same and all weapons should be the same. Any difference should just be skin deep.

Edited by Mystere, 13 April 2014 - 10:53 PM.

[Psikez]

I keep saying it, only 1 variant of the commando with 1 small laser -- 100% balance

[Karl Streiger]

Wise words but arn't humans the root of every evil?

Me for my part - MWO is fun - if i get angry because i did loose, i stop playing MWO...why should i get stressed in my spare time?
I run only build that are fun - for me - never try to use MetaBuilds.... (although i had MetaBuilds before they were metabuilds)

[Wolfways]

Mystere, on 13 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge,

I guess that must be all those players using stock mechs that i see....never

[Craig Steele]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 13 April 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

I think the root of the problem in MOST cases are people. YES, it's the players, not the system. Not all but MOST cases.

When there are threads actually coaching people on how to screw over a certain portion of the player population, your assessment is pretty spot on.

But the self appointed entitled few will continue to maintain theirs is the only opinion worth listening to on whatever the subject may be.

It's simply impossible for them to "have fun" unless they know they are enjoying some advantage to offset their mediocrity.

You're unfortunately going to flamed to all heck for daring to call them out I'm afraid.

Good luck

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 13 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge, not to mention variety. As such, for many of us, it is indeed the player -- more so than the game -- that is the issue.

Balance directly affects all of those things, if the game is truly unbalanced then you don't have any of that.

Quote

Because if people really want balance first and foremost, then all mechs should be the same and all weapons should be the same. Any difference should just be skin deep.

I lost some brain cells reading this because it was so stupid.

[Aresye]

Quote

In essence, the ROOT of the problem is the balancing of players!

Most of my issues happen to be about the Elo, MM, and balance of players, so amen on that.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 13 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge, not to mention variety. As such, for many of us, it is indeed the player -- more so than the game -- that is the issue. Because if people really want balance first and foremost, then all mechs should be the same and all weapons should be the same. Any difference should just be skin deep.

That is very amateurish way of describing balance. Balance does not have to be about just one chassis with one weapon. It is about plays and counter plays. Risk vs rewards. Of course, that might be hard for many people to grasp.

[Rex Budman]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

That is very amateurish way of describing balance. Balance does not have to be about just one chassis with one weapon. It is about plays and counter plays. Risk vs rewards. Of course, that might be hard for many people to grasp.

Glad you said it... Risk Vs Reward is key.

[El Bandito]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

Glad you said it... Risk Vs Reward is key.

If you are talking about LRMs, then I'll have you to know that LRM boating is a risky business, with often less reward than one might think. All depends on whether the enemy team is made of complete idiots or not.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 April 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[Dracol]

I would add that the a lot of perceived imbalance stems for certain play styles being countered.

Ie. I like playing style A but I always lose to style B, so nerf B

What people sometimes seem to fail to realize is rock/scissor/paper nature of this games balance.

Just a general example with rough reference to what is actually in game:

LRMs are seen as a counter to snipers, so when LRMs were buffed to help them facilitate their role as anti sniper, the sniper players saw them as unbalanced without realizing it was LRMs job to defeat them.


If a person keeps dieing to the natural counter to their play style, it easier to complain on the boards then to learn the more advanced game skills required to overcome their play style's natural predator.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 13 April 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Wise words but arn't humans the root of every evil?

Nope.
But here something to ruin your day:

Worship your squirrelly Lord and Master ™!

[Rex Budman]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

If you are talking about LRMs, then I'll have you to know that LRM boating is a risky business, with often less reward than one might think. All depends on whether the enemy team is made of complete idiots or not.

Untrue because at least for the first portion of the match you will excel highly due to you being the last individual to be snuck up on. Also, since there are SO MANY LRM boats spaced out, a light mech who snuk up on you merely gets picked apart like a spatchcock by the other boats.

[Dracol]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

Untrue because at least for the first portion of the match you will excel highly due to you being the last individual to be snuck up on. Also, since there are SO MANY LRM boats spaced out, a light mech who snuk up on you merely gets picked apart like a spatchcock by the other boats.

What I've seen light pilots who are better then me do is work the edges of the map. With LRM boats announcing their positions from 1K away, they'll take a few minutes working their way behind the LRM line. When in position, they'll make an attack on the rear, armor of the boat.

If it does not go down and they feel they have the advantage, they'll work to stay in the blind spot of the lrm boat for a second shot to take em down. If they know they don't have the advantage, they'll duck out of sight before the LRM is able to fully turn around. This will at least take the LRM away from firing on friendlies for a salvo or two.,

[Bobzilla]

Mystere, on 13 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge, not to mention variety. As such, for many of us, it is indeed the player -- more so than the game -- that is the issue.

Because if people really want balance first and foremost, then all mechs should be the same and all weapons should be the same. Any difference should just be skin deep.

Lack of balance causes one side to have no adversity and challenge so everything you said is off. You are right in saying people are the problem, most of the time. That doesn't mean there aren't inbalances that magnify this problem. Also they are trying to make all weapons and mechs balance each other, just with differences in delevery cause if any one thing is 'better' there goes your veriety.

[Mechteric]

Just because in some game a team with 4 DDC's with ECM lost against a team with fewer or no ECM doesn't prove that ECM isn't OP. It only proves your team didn't play as well as the other team, but most likely the enemy team had more to overcome to prove that they were better. Or it just means the other 8 in your team went in and got themselves killed too quickly, leaving 4 Atlases as fodder to bigger numbers.

You have to look at balance based around an "all other things being equal" approach. So for instance when a team wins that is 300 tons underweight, it doesn't prove that weight imbalance isn't a problem.


I'd imagine that if you look at the number of matches that had underdog wins either facing the mass ECM or underweight challenges, the percentage of wins would be much lower, and therefore anecdotal wins are not sufficient evidence.

[FupDup]

Mystere, on 13 April 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

And that is just an opinion. For others, it's adversity and challenge, not to mention variety. As such, for many of us, it is indeed the player -- more so than the game -- that is the issue.

Because if people really want balance first and foremost, then all mechs should be the same and all weapons should be the same. Any difference should just be skin deep.

Having the majority of players on both teams in every match using the same cookie-cutter configurations and strategies over and over again is not adverse, challenging, or diverse.


Having a variety of viable choices does not suddenly make the game easy, nor does it remove differences between mechs/weaponry...unless, of course, the only difference you see in weapons is a divide between effective and ineffective, in which case nobody can help you.

Those differences are the balance, if handled properly: i.e. mech A is better at brawling than mech B but mech B is much better at fire support (the same goes for weapons, equipment, etc.). How did you even arrive at that conclusion?

Edited by FupDup, 14 April 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[sokitumi]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 13 April 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

There will be ZERO problem IF you WIN a match but there WILL be TONS of complains if you LOSE one.

More than zero are so shortsighted.

Jeffrey Wilder, on 13 April 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

So stop harping on certain issues that are not a problem in the first place like LRMs, ECMs, BAPs, TAG, ACs, Lazers, boating, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Clearly, what's wrong with this game.... is the players complaining...

Sorry Jeffrey, but I think if you'd been here from the beginning and watched the circus unfold step by glorious step you might feel different about that. Give it a few months.

Also wtf, lasers? Bap? Tag? Really few complaints there in the first place.