7 replies to this topic

[HurricaneZ]

Since the release of the firestarters, how do flamers work currently?
Personally, I've noticed that when using flamers, the heat generated goes up in my mech exponentially, meaning I flame for about 15 seconds, with no personal heat, then it starts going up slowly, then it goes faster and faster, till it goes up pretty fast towards the high end, causing me to shut down. If I were to stop flaming, of course my heat starts to drop, but depending on where my levels are, once I start it up again, the heat rises at the rate it was at.
I've also read on an earlier post that the heat rate increase is NOT affected by the number of heat sinks equipped. I'm guessing that raising the total heat threshold by 10 with a single HS is only giving me about 2-3 more seconds of flame time as the heat is rising so fast at 90% anyway so it's not noticeable.. I assume more HS do increase the rate at which heat is dissipated as it does normally with any weapon.

1 Does it affect the target mech in a similar fashion until the flamer heat cap at 90%?

2 I assume using 2 flamers would double the affect on both myself and the target mech?

I ask these questions not for trying to do damage personally, but in a team setting with one person using a flamer and my teammates firing away at their max DPS.

Edited by HurricaneZ, 15 April 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[IcemanOmikron]

1) No. Using a single flamer on an enemy mech will increase their heat by 1 HPS until they hit the 90% heat cap. The amount of heat they receive from your flamer never changes (until cap of course). EDIT: I was under the impression that the exponential heat only applied to you and not your target.

2) Yes. 2 flamers will perfectly double the effects of a single flamer for both you and the enemy.

Heat sinks do apply, yes. Keep in mind that every double heat sink increases your heat dissipation by 0.15 HPS. So when you have 4 flamers that are putting out 4 HPS each because of exponential heat for a total of 16 HPS, that 0.15 dissipation is not going to make a noticeable difference.

Edited by IcemanOmikron, 17 April 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[HurricaneZ]

OK, so I took a closer look at the Flamers stats, to see what you're talking about:

heath 10
damage 0.7
heat 1
cool down 0
duration 0
and heat damage 3

It says it generates 3 heat damage per second, not 1, which means if I flame him for 3 seconds, it will do a total of 9 heat damage and 2.1 normal damage to the target? hmm. That means if I could flame him for 30 seconds he'll have 90 heat and 21 normal damage. Hmm,

Edited by HurricaneZ, 17 April 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[Modo44]

Flamers are a joke weapon at the moment. You can not directly overheat your target, you must stay very close -- open to other attacks, you rely on the enemy not having any low heat weapon, it usually blinds you more than the target, and you can very well overheat yourself from constant ML-level heat. Even something rather weak, like a small (pulse) laser, is more useful than a flamer.

[IcemanOmikron]

HurricaneZ, on 17 April 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

It says it generates 3 heat damage per second, not 1, which means if I flame him for 3 seconds, it will do a total of 9 heat damage and 2.1 normal damage to the target? hmm. That means if I could flame him for 30 seconds he'll have 90 heat and 21 normal damage. Hmm,

Sorry, I didn't have the numbers in front of me but that sounds mostly correct. Also keep in mind that your flamer is fighting against your enemy's heat sinks. On average, my mechs tend to dissipate 2.5 hps so you're actually only adding 0.5 hps with a single flamer. A second flamer boosts that to 3.5 hps. From what I can remember experiencing, your personal heat generation from the flamers will get pretty severe after 10-15 seconds so you wouldn't be able to heat up an enemy mech all the way to 90%.

[Sereglach]

Flamers are not necessarily a joke, however using them properly is an art form. The current mechanics of an exponential scaling heat mechanics (for you and your target) pose a retinue of problems that make it very difficult to wield effectively.

You cannot take the displayed flamer stats to heart, as they don't apply directly. Yes, they do .7DPS. However, their heat mechanics starts at 0 (for you and the enemy) and accelerates over time. This rate of acceleration stacks exponentially across flamers (because you're adding rates of acceleration, which, mathematically, is an exponential increase over time). One of the reasons people gripe that it does no heat damage for a target is that, once you break your stream of contact, the heat scale seems to instantly reset for your target but not for you. This also leads to how people state that a Flamer does more heat generation to you than it does for your target.

There are several things you can do, which take a good bit of practice, to improve your effectiveness with flamers:

1. Use flamers in shorter bursts, and/or only while you have solid contact with your target. This prevents the target's heat scale from resetting, needlessly, while yours stays in tact. It also optimizes the heat you build on targets.

2. High heat builds are your prey of choice. Even if you're not doing direct heat damage, flamers mitigate heat sink effectiveness, so high heat generating builds will not be cooling off while under the punishment of flamers.

3. Retain "cool off" or other low heat weapons on your build. This is why I love my Ember, because I can maintain 4 flamers and 4 machine guns. The zero heat machine guns give me a weapon that can be fired while cooling off, as well as while burning a target.

4. Flamers are not meant to be used with other weapons. A build like the Ember bypasses this, but for others, (like my TDR-5SS, which has two flamers in the shoulder) the Flamers are meant to harass, blind, and prevent enemy cooling in your target while you're trying to punish them at short range. You let go of your flamers to fire your weapons, and then open up with the Flamers again. However, you'll need to lay off the flamers so you don't overheat yourself, at some point. This tactic is best used in bursts, after which you return to cover.

5. Gather support. Flamers are a support weapon, period. With the harassment and hindrance you are able to get on your targets, you need people to capitalize upon your obnoxiousness. With PUG groups that means sticking with the main body or stirring up the hornets nest so they actually advance into the fray. In premade groups it means picking targets with your group either to support them, or to mitigate the threat of a high heat target while your group focuses down a separate threat.

Hopefully the flamer re-engineering comes soon. I hope you found this stuff helpful, in the mean time. If you also feel up for it, I have a rather detailed flamer breakdown article as my signature. Feel free to read it. Considering we got a Firestarter not long after a moderator responded to the thread, hopefully they took it into consideration with this flamer reengineering, as well.

[HurricaneZ]

So along with the EMBER, the SDR 5K and CDA 3C, which both sport 4B and 1E slots could both have been designed with the flamer in mind.

In regards to firing bursts or continuously, if the target's exponential heat ramp up is reset, once the flames stop, wouldn't that mean that if I commit to starting the flamer, for it to be effective, I would have to fire for the full duration? And if I do break off, I would also have to stop firing until my heat gets back to zero before trying again?

[Sereglach]

HurricaneZ, on 17 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

So along with the EMBER, the SDR 5K and CDA 3C, which both sport 4B and 1E slots could both have been designed with the flamer in mind.

In regards to firing bursts or continuously, if the target's exponential heat ramp up is reset, once the flames stop, wouldn't that mean that if I commit to starting the flamer, for it to be effective, I would have to fire for the full duration? And if I do break off, I would also have to stop firing until my heat gets back to zero before trying again?

Personally (now, of course, we're waiting for Flamer re-engineering, so this may change), I never use less than two flamers together. The only exception being my Wolverines, which all ran the one Flamer in the head for pure enjoyment purposes. The exponential stacking mechanic and slow acceleration of an individual flamer leaves much to be desired for inflicting heat damage. On the other hand it is .7 DPS that can be done unhindered for a LONG time.

For firing in bursts, I'm referring to making note of having your target in your crosshairs. If you're not making contact, then you're wasting Flamer fire. A burst doesn't necessarily need to be a 3-5 second burst of firing a machine gun in real life. The burst could be the solid 20 seconds you're able to harass a Battlemaster before you need to run away because his help just arrived . . . or your help just arrived and he's now being pummeled into oblivion.

You're going to want to maintain contact with your flames for as long as possible. However, if you break contact with the target, lay of the stream as you're only hindering yourself.

Regardless, the simple answer to your question is "yes", but I wanted to be sure to explain why, and the logic behind it.