29 replies to this topic

[MadIrish]

Recommend reducing ammo per ton by 60 to 70% this force people solely using LRMs to balance there mech loadout if you can only carry 60 to 80 rounds of lrm ammo per ton then you'll use it to soften up targets as opposed to outright killing them.

Edited by MadIrish, 15 April 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

No, just no. How often did you get killed by LRMs? How often did you actually get a kill with LRMs? With all kinds of counters available against LRMs and an average hit ratio of 30%, LRms work very much as intended. The have low base damage, spread horribly and are even at close range with LoS lock barely capable of focusing down an enemy as damage spreads over the entire area of the 'Mech, whereas lasers and other weapons can reliably be aimed at certain 'Mech parts, increasing their killing potential by a magnitude. LRMs are fine the way they are, stop looking for excuses why you are simply bad at choosing correct movement patterns or positioning for cover. As you get better at the game, LRMs will become much less of a direct threat.

[ImperialKnight]

No. LRMs don't need more nerf or buffs. The problem is boating and team work.

When you get owned by LRMs, it's more often the fact that the enemy has a lot of them or is running a highly coordinated premade.

[ShinVector]

MadIrish, on 15 April 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Recommend reducing ammo per ton by 60 to 70% this force people solely using LRMs to balance there mech loadout if you can only carry 60 to 80 rounds of lrm ammo per ton then you'll use it to soften up targets as opposed to outright killing them.

Just realise how bad things will be with it's current state when the Cheese LRMer boat lovers finally get their CLAN LRMs..
Mini distance at 75M ?? Sheesh.....
(Again they would argue again that LRMs takes 'skill'... hiaz..)

[Ovion]

What...
I run 2 main LRM boats, an LRM40 and an LRM30.
LRM40 has a potential damage of 44. But with the hit rate of LRMs only being around the 1/3 mark, that's really 15 per shot.
LRM30 has a potential damage of 33. But with the hit rate of LRMs only being around the 1/3 mark, that's really 11 per shot.
At 180 missiles per ton, that's 4.5 shots for the 40, and 6 for the 50, with a potential damage per ton of 198, but a realistic damage of 66.
Furthermore, that's spread across the entire enemy mech, so not pinpoint.
You're looking at least 1-2 full tons to kill a mech, usually more.

Both carry 8-9 tons of ammo, for 36-44 shots.

Getting 2 shots per ton is utterly ridiculous.
A potential damage of 66-88, and a realistic damage of 22-30 per ton of ammo....
The above 8-9 tons providing 16-18 shots....

And of course it remains, there's plenty of counters to LRMs (Cover, Lateral movement, speed, ECM, shutting down, being underwater, AMS), and it's the only weapon where you get warned that it's shooting at you, enabling you to enact those counters.


An equivalent weight of weapon, in a pair of AC10s (for a long range AC20) gets 15 rounds per ton, does 20 damage per shot and get 7.5 shots per ton.
So that's a potential of 150 per ton. Accuracy for these however, is closer to 2/3, so you're looking at around 10 damage per ton, which is also focused where you hit it.
With 8T of ammo, that's 60 shots of AC20, with a potential damage of 1200 and a realistic damage of 800.


And of course, if both mechs shot at one of my locusts, and it stood perfectly still to oblige them, they need to do 32 damage to the CT to kill it.

That's 2 shots of AC20, or 4-5 shots of LRM30/40.

So you could kill 3.75 Locusts a ton with twin-AC10s.
Or 1.1-1.2 Locusts a ton with LRM30-40s.

Your way takes 2-3 Tons of LRM fire to kill the weakest mech in the game.
Twin AC10s still only need 0.26 of a Ton.

[ShinVector]

SethAbercromby, on 15 April 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

No, just no. How often did you get killed by LRMs? How often did you actually get a kill with LRMs? With all kinds of counters available against LRMs and an average hit ratio of 30%, LRms work very much as intended. The have low base damage, spread horribly and are even at close range with LoS lock barely capable of focusing down an enemy as damage spreads over the entire area of the 'Mech, whereas lasers and other weapons can reliably be aimed at certain 'Mech parts, increasing their killing potential by a magnitude. LRMs are fine the way they are, stop looking for excuses why you are simply bad at choosing correct movement patterns or positioning for cover. As you get better at the game, LRMs will become much less of a direct threat.

Going to have break down this one:
"With all kinds of counters available against LRMs and an average hit ratio of 30%"
This noob at LRM tried out LRM5 and ALRM15 and just spamming it, usually indirectly.. Averaging 36%. Not sure what you are doing though.

"LRms work very much as intended."
Opinion of significant number of short range brawlers is that they still work too well, especially where there >3 lrm boats.

"The have low base damage,"
Base damage is already higher than TT values.

"spread horribly and are even at close range with LoS lock barely capable of focusing down an enemy as damage spreads over the entire area of the 'Mech"
Not the case for LRM5s.. These are currently still CT seeking LRMs.

", whereas lasers and other weapons can reliably be aimed at certain 'Mech parts, increasing their killing potential by a magnitude."
If LRM could do pin point damage, indirectly with guidance at range. What would be the point of bringing any other weapon ? Direct fire work at shorter range, even more so, for some weapons on the latest patch and involves staring at the enemy they work as we want.. But unfortunately their reliability is affected by latency.. Worst being lasers for high ping players.

"LRMs are fine the way they are, stop looking for excuses why you are simply bad at choosing correct movement patterns or positioning for cover."
Best not look down people who prefer other weapons than LRM. You are dependent on them for spotting for you and covering your min distance weak point.

The this LRM noob. (Yes.. I mean me.) Is hiding behind his team mates for locks and spamming LRMs on anything he can lock on.
Simply take too much work to fight against when there multiple boats with minimum situational awareness in game.

knightsljx, on 15 April 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

No. LRMs don't need more nerf or buffs. The problem is boating and team work.

When you get owned by LRMs, it's more often the fact that the enemy has a lot of them or is running a highly coordinated premade.

Agreed that LRM boating a problem. Something should be done to dissuade people from boating LRMs.

Edited by ShinVector, 15 April 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[ChewBaka]

SethAbercromby, on 15 April 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

No, just no. How often did you get killed by LRMs? How often did you actually get a kill with LRMs? With all kinds of counters available against LRMs and an average hit ratio of 30%, LRms work very much as intended. The have low base damage, spread horribly and are even at close range with LoS lock barely capable of focusing down an enemy as damage spreads over the entire area of the 'Mech, whereas lasers and other weapons can reliably be aimed at certain 'Mech parts, increasing their killing potential by a magnitude. LRMs are fine the way they are, stop looking for excuses why you are simply bad at choosing correct movement patterns or positioning for cover. As you get better at the game, LRMs will become much less of a direct threat.

A whole lot more often than you think, simply because of the ability to BOAT those LRMs. Unable to focus my arse. Most of the missiles home in on the torso area anyway without any need to aim. It IS far more focused than it out to be and the damage spread isn't really that much worse than trying to paint a fast moving mech with lasers.

In certain maps like Alpine Peaks and Caustic, there's just no cover available anywhere so LRM boats rule the day and will inflict a lot of dmg and get the majority of kills. I think its ridiculous that PGI can buff LRMs like that yet leave those lazily (yes, LAZY) designed maps in rotation. Its stupid and unfair to brawlers.

PGI has saw fit to nerf ballistic weapon boating. Its only fair that LRM boating shoud also be heavily penalized. Ghost heat isn't good enough and easily avoided by chain firing. There needs to be some mechanic in place that makes it unviable for any mech to carry more than a pair of LRMs, which is typically what happens in canon anyway. I don't see the point in arguing the buff anymore but the boating issue definitely needs to be addressed.

What's sad about this is PGI actually even encourages LRM boats with the Stalker champion...

Edited by Charlie Pohr, 15 April 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Fafnerr]

Just slow them down a little bit. Reduce the speed by 10 - 20 % and everything is fine.

[Ironwithin]

Fafnerr, on 16 April 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

Just slow them down a little bit. Reduce the speed by 10 - 20 % and everything is fine.

lol, they just got a speed-buff (and then a little nerf). It's highly unlikely they will go "alright already ... let's go the OPPOSITE way now!"

[Wolfways]

LRM's need a buff because....Meh, pointless conversation.

[MadIrish]

I think LRMs work fine its just the boating that makes it unbalanced. Its common to see mechs spit out continues streams of 5 missile volleys and you simply can't do anything but run for cover and hope they stop looking for you. I use LRMs 2 but I dont load 1000+ missile how boring. Simply put it shouldn't be the only weapon needed to wipe half a team. If you cut the ammo per ton players will be thinking more about who to strike before moving in with direct fire weapons. It will force a more action and less hiding from the boats. As it is right now playes hide for the first 3 to 4 minutes trying to figure out if their gonna get LRM'd to death.

Compare to the tonnage loadout on heavy ballistics its way unbalanced let me carry 100 rounds per ton of AC10 and fire a volley ever second and I'll rush the boats problem solved, game balanced again.

[Wesxander]

Many of you are commenting that LRMS need nerfing. How many of you played classic battletech or the MechWarrior series? LRMS already have about 8 defenses against them. They have the worst damage to tonnage of ammo in the game.

When you look at 3050 clan mechs appearing why is the primary choice of weapons for the madcat, vulture and few other mechs was/is LRMs?

You guys do realize this game nerfed LRMS to worthless when they increased ballistic ranges and laser damage ranges ?

Only in this game will you find a buff that lets your ac 20 shoot for full damage at range 400 ignoring all battle tech cannon in favor of that.

Look up 3025 and 3050 weapon ranges and full rules of the weapons systems then justify to everyone again why LRMS should be made pointless.

Game is supposed be about tactics and counters to weapons and mechs. Not about which group guys can build the best shooter with a x2 or x3 range buff for lasers and autocannons. That buff in of itself negates the purpose of LRMS.

[Cyborne Elemental]

no
no
no
no
NO
They're fine as is.

[Plopton]

LRM's should have More ammo per ton, 200 sounds better. They should also fly 20% faster and do more a little more damage.

edit: On second thought, I think they are fine the way they are now.

Edited by Plopton, 16 April 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[ShinVector]

Blue Drache, on 16 April 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Troll.

Actually I think he might be serious. These are the guided weapon dependant kind.

[Plopton]

Yes I trolled.
The OP said the LRM ammo should be reduced by 60-70%. Maybe all ammo should be reduced by 60-70%
whatever, think what you want, try piloting a Cat C1 with 30 tubes and see how well you can do if it so easy.

[ShinVector]

I drive almost every style but LRM boating.
Not dependant on guided weaponary to win.. So.. Gonna be hard.

This was from my LRM research...
Not so hard to be a **** with LRM spamming in medium with 20 Tubes.. Enemy team can't do anything but run and hide. LOL...
Why carry so many tubes myself when there are always other bigger LRM boats in the team...

LRM STORM !!

Edited by ShinVector, 16 April 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[Plopton]

ShinVector, just try it. There is a trial Cat A1 with 30 LRM and 4 SSRM. See how well you do and post it. I am sure you will do well. GL HF!

[SethAbercromby]

ShinVector, on 16 April 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

Not so hard to be a **** with LRM spamming in medium with 20 Tubes.. Enemy team can't do anything but run and hide. LOL...
Why carry so many tubes myself when there are always other bigger LRM boats in the team...

And yet it's still more efficient to just boat PPCs for long range. Pinpoint, 1500m/s, thankfully don't boat as well combined with AC5s any more thanks to the -slightly, but overall not very significant- speed reduction. Whatever damage LRMs can do, even if spammed with 4xLRM10 boats, the only real kills you can hope for are either dumping more than half your ammo into a single Boar's Head or getting a vulture kill on a badly damaged, running target the others weren't fast enough to deny you with their much more damage to time efficient weapons. I enjoy riding my 4xLRM10 Catapult or Griffin 3M (if I'm feeling silly) but I've never been under the impression of being an unstoppable murder-machine. LRMs are viable, as they perform well in softening up a target for others to get the kill. Enough LRMs in a short enough time span perform well in reduceing orange armor to red and red armor to nil to save the ones engaged in the fight the effort and confuse the target with the screenshake to make return fire more difficult but that eats up 5-8 LRM10 salvos in a short time span, which is about 40-60% of a ton of ammo to strip already red armor to expose the internals. That won't really impress any twin-UAC5 Jagermech.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 16 April 2014 - 07:33 PM.

[ShinVector]

SethAbercromby, on 16 April 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

And yet it's still more efficient to just boat PPCs for long range. Pinpoint, 1500m/s, thankfully don't boat as well combined with AC5s any more thanks to the -slightly, but overall not very significant- speed reduction. Whatever damage LRMs can do, even if spammed with 4xLRM10 boats, the only real kills you can hope for are either dumping more than half your ammo into a single Boar's Head or getting a vulture kill on a badly damaged, running target the others weren't fast enough to deny you with their much more damage to time efficient weapons. I enjoy riding my 4xLRM10 Catapult or Griffin 3M (if I'm feeling silly) but I've never been under the impression of being an unstoppable murder-machine. LRMs are viable, as they perform well in softening up a target for others to get the kill. Enough LRMs in a short enough time span perform well in reduceing orange armor to red and red armor to nil to save the ones engaged in the fight the effort and confuse the target with the screenshake to make return fire more difficult but that eats up 5-8 LRM10 salvos in a short time span, which is about 40-60% of a ton of ammo to strip already red armor to expose the internals. That won't really impress any twin-UAC5 Jagermech.

I would argue that one thing LRM boats do better than any other weapons is Ranged Focus fire.
Other weapons need LOS... While LRMs only need a lock. This leads them to being abused.

Maybe... Just maybe.. This would have been less of a problem if mechs didn't get free C3.
Lastly.. UAC5 is kinda of a bad build. I prefer dual gauss myself.

Edited by ShinVector, 16 April 2014 - 07:58 PM.