17 replies to this topic

[Voodoomancer]

Okay, I'm exclusively a PUG player, and I'm not that good.

The current state of LRMs might be great for the professionals - but for me, right now, it's a real gamebreaker. They are just OP. When I drop into a game with a boatload of LRMs, it's just not fun. And when it's not fun, I don't play as much. And I don't spend as much.

There was a suggestion a while ago that I thought was a great idea: make LRMs have lots of dud missiles. Maybe 50-60% of them. That way there is still value in packing lots of them while still not making them over.

(For example: I just dropped into a game against an LRM deck, Instead of having fun engaging and brawling, we ended up just doing a standoff. And once we were a few mechs down we just got missiled out of existence. Eventually I just gave up and let the LRMs kill me, and now instead of dropping eagerly into another match I'm here complaining).

Edited by Voodoomancer, 16 April 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

AMS, get it. And boatloads of anything in this game will shred you in seconds.

Also camping is a bad idea with LRM's you close using cover.

[no one]

Holy hell man, typing 'LRM' into the search function is really not that hard. This really didn't need it's own thread.

http://mwomercs.com/...-fire-for-lrms/
http://mwomercs.com/...lrm-adjustment/
http://mwomercs.com/...l-fix-is-found/
http://mwomercs.com/...-state-of-lrms/
http://mwomercs.com/...on-lrm-balance/
http://mwomercs.com/...ework-for-lrms/
http://mwomercs.com/...st-lock-and-c3/
http://mwomercs.com/...d-lrm-solution/
http://mwomercs.com/...w-lrm-mechanic/

Also, LRMs aren't that bad. Almost any other weapon will kill you faster by weight+EHS. Once we get launch restrictions on drop weight LRM use will wilt into nothingness. They register as a nuisance only when you have massed fire from multiple assault 'Mechs, and if anything they help brawling because they force the PPC and AC snipers to take cover more.

For now you just need to learn how to use cover, stick to an ECM unit or AMS friendly and pack an AMS yourself.

Voodoomancer, on 15 April 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

There was a suggestion a while ago that I thought was a great idea: make LRMs have lots of dud missiles. Maybe 50-60% of them. That way there is still value in packing lots of them while still not making them over.

So an LRM20 + Art weighs 11 tons, plus several tons of ammo, and does less than 10 damage on a direct hit at optimal range? MWO really doesn't need a hotter, slower, worse LB 10-X with multiple counters and minimum range. Seriously, you thought that through not at all.

Edited by no one, 15 April 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

please nerf ac/ppc

[Impyrium]

I have an idea. Delete the forums so we don't have to put up with every player's whim, just because they literally suck at something! LRMs aren't broken. Hell, other weapons AREN'T broken. I don't see anything being exploited. People are now more balanced than anything, perhaps too balanced.

LRMs are good at the moment, since they're now viable. A missile based 'Mech is now a very dangerous opponent at range, because that's his playground. Up close and it's bye bye birdy for him. Players seem to get aggravated over the concept that they can be picked off at range, but it's a concept that needed to be there; missiles before were nothing more than a toy rather than a legitimate weapon.

Mounting a a few LRM5's is now a very viable tactic just to send the opposing team hurtling for cover.

[King Arthur IV]

if i can single-handedly win games with a ac/ppc build. its not balance.

[PhoenixFire55]

King Arthur IV, on 16 April 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

if i can single-handedly win games with a ac/ppc build. its not balance.

You can single-handedly win games with an LRM boat. You can single-handedly win games with a 6ML Jenner.

Pinpoint damage meta is broken. LRMs are now broken as well, because they try to compensate pinpoint meta with LRM meta.

[Rogue Jedi]

firstly I am not the best player, about half the time I do less than 200 damage in a match, so this could just be due to incompetence on my part.

Since the LRM buff I have repeatedly tried to make them work, but I cannot do so, firing LRMs with line of sight I have on several occasions fired off hundreds of LRMs and then got killed having scored 0 damage, in my experience LRMs are still barely viable, even when everyone seemed to be packing them I had little problem surviving them (possibly because I was mostly using Firestarters that month).

All LRMs seem to be good for is forcing people to ether close fast or head for cover, they are only a threat on the open maps with limited cover like Alpine and Caustic

[King Arthur IV]

Rogue Jedi, on 16 April 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

firstly I am not the best player, about half the time I do less than 200 damage in a match, so this could just be due to incompetence on my part.

Since the LRM buff I have repeatedly tried to make them work, but I cannot do so, firing LRMs with line of sight I have on several occasions fired off hundreds of LRMs and then got killed having scored 0 damage, in my experience LRMs are still barely viable, even when everyone seemed to be packing them I had little problem surviving them (possibly because I was mostly using Firestarters that month).

All LRMs seem to be good for is forcing people to ether close fast or head for cover, they are only a threat on the open maps with limited cover like Alpine and Caustic

there use to be a pay off for getting your own LOS but they nerfed it. basically there is no need to get your own los unless you want to make sure the lock is good.

[Ovion]

I run 2 main LRM boats, an LRM40 and an LRM30.

LRM40 has a potential damage of 44 (The max damage a shot could cause, if all missiles hit).
But with the hit rate of LRMs only being around the 33% mark, that's a realistic damage (how much it'll actually do) of 15 per shot.
Which will be spread across the mech, not entirely sure what the spread is exactly, but I normall see 3 components flash, so I'll assume 3 average, with a slight bias to the CT, so I'll call it 'realistic' divided by 3 +1, and write future LRM damage as 44 / 15 / 6, to represent Potential, Realistic and Damage reaching CT.

LRM30 is 33 / 11 / 5.
Chained / Single LRM5s will be 5.5 / 2 / probably 1-2 still, however, AMS will shut it down.

At 180 missiles per ton, that's 4.5 shots for the 40, and 6 for the 50, with a 198 / 66 / 22 for the damage
You're looking at least 1-5 full tons to kill a mech, usually more.

Both those boats carry 8-9 tons of ammo, for 36-44 shots each (or 324 LRM5 singles).

And of course, there's plenty of countermeasures to LRMs (Cover, Lateral movement, speed, ECM, shutting down, being underwater, AMS), and it's the only weapon where you get warned that it's shooting at you, enabling you to enact those counters.


An equivalent weight of weapon, in a pair of AC10s (for a long range AC20) gets 15 rounds per ton, does 20 damage per shot and get 7.5 shots per ton.
So that's a potential damage of 150 per ton.
Accuracy for these however, is closer to 66%, so you're looking at around 100 damage per ton, which is also focused where you hit it.
With 8T of ammo, that's 60 shots of AC20, with a potential damage of 1200 and a realistic damage of 800.


If both mechs shot at one of my locusts, and it stood perfectly still to oblige them, they need to do 32 damage to the CT to kill it.

That's 2 shots of AC20, or 5-6 shots of LRM30/40.

So you could kill 3.75 Locusts a ton with twin-AC10s.
Or 1 Locusts a ton with LRM30-40s.

Or to put it another way -
Twin AC10s still only need 0.26 of a Ton.
LRMs need 1 whole ton.

Other end of the scale, to kill an Atlas, you need:
1.06 Tons for the twin AC10s.
Roughly 5-6 tons of LRM ammo.

King Arthur IV, on 16 April 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

there use to be a pay off for getting your own LOS but they nerfed it. basically there is no need to get your own los unless you want to make sure the lock is good.

Having your own LoS with Artemis, reduces lock on time and improves spread, this stacks with TAG, to give you an even faster lock on time, and better spread.

With Artemis and TAG you can probably reduce the amount of missiles you need to kill a target by 10-20%.

[King Arthur IV]

Ovion, on 16 April 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

Having your own LoS with Artemis, reduces lock on time and improves spread, this stacks with TAG, to give you an even faster lock on time, and better spread.

With Artemis and TAG you can probably reduce the amount of missiles you need to kill a target by 10-20%.

only lock on time. the spread doesn't change anymore.

[MilesTeg1982]

Voodoomancer, on 15 April 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Okay, I'm exclusively a PUG player, and I'm not that good.

The current state of LRMs might be great for the professionals - but for me, right now, it's a real gamebreaker. They are just OP. When I drop into a game with a boatload of LRMs, it's just not fun. And when it's not fun, I don't play as much. And I don't spend as much.

There was a suggestion a while ago that I thought was a great idea: make LRMs have lots of dud missiles. Maybe 50-60% of them. That way there is still value in packing lots of them while still not making them over.

(For example: I just dropped into a game against an LRM deck, Instead of having fun engaging and brawling, we ended up just doing a standoff. And once we were a few mechs down we just got missiled out of existence. Eventually I just gave up and let the LRMs kill me, and now instead of dropping eagerly into another match I'm here complaining).

regarding PUGs and LRMs - I recognized a lot of players in PUGs in the last few weeks without without AMS - which is one reason why LRMs are effective. In one case I have seen a group of 9 Mechs(!) without AMS standing together and getting hit by 3-4 enemies with LRM10s - they could have shot down most of the LRMs but didn't because they had not AMS

Edited by MilesTeg1982, 16 April 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Voodoomancer, on 15 April 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Okay, I'm exclusively a PUG player, and I'm not that good.

The current state of LRMs might be great for the professionals - but for me, right now, it's a real gamebreaker. They are just OP. When I drop into a game with a boatload of LRMs, it's just not fun. And when it's not fun, I don't play as much. And I don't spend as much.

There was a suggestion a while ago that I thought was a great idea: make LRMs have lots of dud missiles. Maybe 50-60% of them. That way there is still value in packing lots of them while still not making them over.

(For example: I just dropped into a game against an LRM deck, Instead of having fun engaging and brawling, we ended up just doing a standoff. And once we were a few mechs down we just got missiled out of existence. Eventually I just gave up and let the LRMs kill me, and now instead of dropping eagerly into another match I'm here complaining).

Drop more. LRMs are dangerous but Autocannon/PPC combos shred you more. Add AMS to your mechs. Hug cover. LRMS seem a lot more scary than they really are,unless you come up again people who know how to use them.

LRMS finally got a buff needed to make them really useful. No nerfing.

[Roadbeer]

[Damia Savon]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 April 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

You can single-handedly win games with an LRM boat. You can single-handedly win games with a 6ML Jenner.

Pinpoint damage meta is broken. LRMs are now broken as well, because they try to compensate pinpoint meta with LRM meta.

There is no such thing as an LRM meta. Running up against an LRM heavy team has always been risky but the solution is to close fast or gee.. carry AMS or ECM..

Pinpoint damage is still a problem but LRM suppression of pop tarts and others using that is now a viable counter.

[Mad Porthos]

AMS serves better than you think for a simple reason. People who really really really are being roflstomped into the ground now with LRMs are very often NARC beacon marked. AMS can shoot those beacons down. Especially if you have more than one on a mech, or two mechs are in vicinity. The NARC spotter must run much closer to have even a chance of hitting with the beacon before it is shredded by AMS. I know, cause in my Jenner-K NARC spotter I had a hell of a time NARCing a Jester with dual AMS, a ton of ammo later, I realized I finally had gotten a beacon to stick on him, as he rushed into an ECM field.

Retreating, I waited for another opportunity and I saw him leave the ecm field a moment later, out the other side. I expected to be able to NARC him there, only to find a second jester paired up with him. Literally at POINT blank range, behind one of the jesters, I could not get a NARC beacon onto either Jester, as their AMS ate them up like cheetos at a gamer party.

Commentaries about how AMS doesn't help often comes from those who are equipping it as a stand alone fix to their being cored game after game in the open. They are told, mount AMS so they do, expecting it to make all the difference. The fact is that the solution to dealing with LRMs, even after the speed increase and then nerf is to change your approach to combat, using cover and remembering that being a "BRAWLER" does not mean being stupid. It is not TIMID to approach your enemy in such a way as to not arrive to the fight full of holes. Cover, AMS and grouping all are the difference between seeing LRMs as a hellish rain of pwnage and seeing them as a manageable threat.

As always, good spotters, the flow of battle and the tides of fate can always gut you, even your best attempts at getting cover coming to naught because it has been occupied by enemies, or thier spotters are skilled at always keeping a bead on you, while communicating to several indirect fire boats. Trying AMS and cover for two or three drops, before raging about it being a waste of tonnage, does NOT count.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 17 April 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Kjudoon]

King Arthur IV, on 16 April 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

if i can single-handedly win games with a ac/ppc build. its not balance.

And the contrary view is "If I can't win games single-handedly with AC/PPC boats, it's not fair."

Proves the same thing. Missiles are still the red-headed stepchild of MWO weapon types and ECM is still OP.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 April 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]