156 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I'm not sure I agree with you Joe. IMO, players of equal skill should define balance. Saying that 1 elite pilot can best several not-as-elite (I don't mean to offend anyone here) pilots doesn't mean the system is balanced. Think of it like this: just because Usain Bolt can beat an obese man on a bicycle does not mean that bicycles aren't generally the faster mode of transport (versus feet in this case).

A fair point... balance to one may not be balance to another Art. I don't judge the UP/OP of a Mech/weapon on just my ability to have success. Otherwise I'd be raging to have Jenners and Spiders Buffed.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

Actually I said, 'depending on who is using the weapons, they suck or are OP.' I saw a Lawman using a Stalker with LRMs and 6 SMALL lasers. after running his bins dry he proceeded to wrack up 2 more kills with small lasers... I'd have died horribly as one of his kills was a Jenner(IIRC)!

Still though, just because someone can't ride a bike doesn't mean that bikes aren't fast.

[Rex Budman]

Artgathan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Still though, just because someone can't ride a bike doesn't mean that bikes aren't fast.

But just because some can adapt to a one wheeled machine does not mean the one wheeled machine is fine.

Sorry I just had to add that...

[AlmightyAeng]

So, I posted this after having an amazing game last night, going to the forums this morning and seeing all kinds of 'nerf this' 'nerf that' 'this is OP' 'this is underpowered' posts. It pissed me off.

My point is this:

To all the people out there who think the following:

ECM is OP
Taking more assaults is OP
Autocannons are OP
Missile-boating is OP
Meta PPC/AC is OP
Cheese builds like Dual Gauss, Dual AC/20 etc are OP
You can't win in anything but the "ideal" mechs
The MM with weight imbalanced is too hard

This is my message to you. I took a non-meta-ideal build in a mech that many think are glass cannons, had a game with the odds stacked against me from the start and kicked ass with 1500+ damage against a team full of assaults, AC/PPC poptarts, ECM mechs and missileboats.

The game isn't as unbalanced as you think it is, and the skill level of players is what is swaying games. For anecdotal evidence, see picture.

Do I AGREE with all the changes Paul has made? Hell no. But the constant hyperbole on the forums is ******* ridiculous. This game feels more balanced than it has in a while (to me) and I'm glad as all hell that I pulled this "best game ever, against all odds" before they introduce the stupid 3/3/3/3 weight balancing measure and make my gaming experience just THAT much more clone-like, game to game.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[Prawfutt]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

There is no logic behind what PGI does.

Actually there is a logic to it. its a bit twisted schoolyard bully logic though. "ohh you want (insert anything here), Ok here you go" and then proceeds to hit you in the face with whatever you asked for.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

I'd be interested in seeing a compilation of that build over 50 matches. Anecdotal evidence based on the experience of a few matches just doesn't cut it for me.

Personally I'm surprised he chose that build. Small lasers require close distance which would suit a mech with more mobility.

I'd say he was just a misinformed pilot who got lucky. Or perhaps he was the best darn pilot that ever lived!? Who knows.

No, he just tried it for a lark and got netter results than expected. That's that synergy thing. Yes we do need more data than 7 matches (the number of drops I did with him)... But He has slightly changed my opinion on Small lasers. I still wont load 'em, but I won't be as dismissive in the future!

[Rex Budman]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

So, I posted this after having an amazing game last night, going to the forums this morning and seeing all kinds of 'nerf this' 'nerf that' 'this is OP' 'this is underpowered' posts. It pissed me off.

My point is this:

To all the people out there who think the following:

ECM is OP
Taking more assaults is OP
Autocannons are OP
Missile-boating is OP
Meta PPC/AC is OP
Cheese builds like Dual Gauss, Dual AC/20 etc are OP
You can't win in anything but the "ideal" mechs
The MM with weight imbalanced is too hard

This is my message to you. I took a non-meta-ideal build in a mech that many think are glass cannons, had a game with the odds stacked against me from the start and kicked ass with 1500+ damage against a team full of assaults, AC/PPC poptarts, ECM mechs and missileboats.

The game isn't as unbalanced as you think it is, and the skill level of players is what is swaying games. For anecdotal evidence, see picture.

Do I AGREE with all the changes Paul has made? Hell no. But the constant hyperbole on the forums is ******* ridiculous. This game feels more balanced than it has in a while (to me) and I'm glad as all hell that I pulled this "best game ever" before they introduce the stupid 3/3/3/3 weight balancing measure and make my gaming experience just THAT much more clone-like, game to game.

Again dude, replicate that over a series of matches, calculate the average, and then see how it fares to the multitude of other builds. One match in a perfect environment does not indicate the potential universality of the argument thus has no bearing or weight on making universal changes/non-changes.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

No, he just tried it for a lark and got netter results than expected. That's that synergy thing. Yes we do need more data than 7 matches (the number of drops I did with him)... But He has slightly changed my opinion on Small lasers. I still wont load 'em, but I won't be as dismissive in the future!

Then perhaps the small lasers are fulfilling their purpose? I won't lie and say I know the totality of the purpose of small lasers, because I don't use them, at all. I will say that he is indeed using them in a manner that benefits him and God speed.

Edited by Rex Budman, 17 April 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Artgathan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Still though, just because someone can't ride a bike doesn't mean that bikes aren't fast.

If my son is riding one and Armstrong riding another one will my son get the same results? The bike is not the issue, I am sure I would likely lose a bike race vs even a novice cyclist! Its not the bikes fault.

[Rex Budman]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

If my son is riding one and Armstrong riding another one will my son get the same results? The bike is not the issue, I am sure I would likely lose a bike race vs even a novice cyclist! Its not the bikes fault.

You're both making the same point here...

This raises another point though; if all players skilled and unskilled are getting the SAME result, wouldn't that therefore mean that the rewards are far too great?

As an extreme example; if every FPS game came with its own aimbot? Very extreme analogy, probably not the best, but try to understand what I mean.

Edited by Rex Budman, 17 April 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Its not the weapons' fault player X can't get good results???

[Rex Budman]

"Still though, just because someone can't ride a bike doesn't mean that bikes aren't fast"

"The bike is not the issue"

Same point... Am I missing something here?

Edited by Rex Budman, 17 April 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Fut, on 17 April 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Completely agree with you. Seriously, I'm with you 100%.

This game isn't supposed to be a level playing field in every single possible way. The mere fact that there are 100s of different Mechs available to choose from should be evidence of that.

This is war. Embrace the challenge.
Choose your ride, choose your equipment, and do the best that you can.

And John Rambo already got that method of Combat covered. You are not him. Cover a GD Ally...

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 April 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

[color=#959595]Still though, just because someone can't ride a bike doesn't mean that bikes aren't fast.[/color]

[color=#959595]The bike is not the issue[/color]

Same point... Am I missing something here?

I need to get some dam sleep!
Thank you sir!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 April 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Rex Budman]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

I need to get some am sleep!
Thank you sir!

You and me both - spend the last two hours chatting on forums I'm too lazy to get off my chair.

[AlmightyAeng]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Again dude, replicate that over a series of matches, calculate the average, and then see how it fares to the multitude of other builds. One match in a perfect environment does not indicate the potential universality of the argument thus has no bearing or weight on making universal changes/non-changes.

First off, it wasn't in a perfect environment. The whole point was that it was in practically the LEAST ideal environment.

I only have 49 matches since the stat reset, but that's my standard Firebrand build. Will I do 1500+ damage every match? Of course not. But frankly my overall stats in that build are relatively good. For reference, I call any mech with over 50 games under its belt and a K/D and W/L ratio both over 2.00 as "good." You can feel free to disagree. That's my frame of reference.

I took this 'mech out EXCLUSIVELY during the last tournament when LRM's were still so damned fast. The game previous to the 1519 match was a game with 5 kills, 5 assists and 950+ damage. So, yes, I'd say that the results are pretty consistent, with a 2.50 W/L ratio, a 2.14 K/D ratio (climbed out of an embarassing 1.74 since the LRM tournament weekend) and 440 damage per match.

I'm expecting it to settle around a 3.5-4.0 K/D ratio, if previous stats are any indication. Anything else Rex?

Edit: Or am I expected to kit out each of my Jagers with a different kind of build/meta, run them all the same number of games and then compare all the stats. Because if that onus is on me, it's on you, too.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[Fut]

Almond Brown, on 17 April 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

And John Rambo already got that method of Combat covered. You are not him. Cover a GD Ally...

Not sure why you directed this at me.
I only run Mediums, I spend 90% of my Drops trying to assist my allies.

[DONTOR]

GJ Badger, simple builds are sometimes the most effective and you proved it right there! BTW carry harder. JK

[990Dreams]

Look, all the "Veterans" here whine and complain about things because they don't want to have to think.

I can combat big guns with big brains. It doesn't always work the other way around though (i.e big guns can't always beat big brains).

It reduces to quantity (of damage) over quality (of MechWarrior). It is all environmentally variable. The way I see it is that quality surpasses quality only to a point, which that point varies based on the quality & quantity of one side v.s. the quality & quantity of another. You can have the highest quality weapons ever and not have the numbers to back it up. Similarly, you can have the biggest army ever but have trashy weapons.

Simply stated, it is based on your ability and your team's ability to work together and adapt.

[Almond Brown]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

You had me till this.

It's not that simple.

Some have very MAJOR Pro's with very minimal Con's (AC's).

Whereas you have SRM's which have minimal Pro's and pretty major Con's (and I'm not even including the HSR issues).

Ghost Heat is also making a mess of things.

I'm fine with every weapon have Pro's and Con's, but the Pro's and Con's have to be equal across all of the weapons.

Otherwise you have what we have today, AC's and PPC's dominating.

But when a change is made to try and help with that, all they hear is WHINE and QQ. No matter what they do they hear it. Oh right. "It isn't what you/me/him/her, as a single individual wanted, so it is Bah Humbug.

You know what would fix it for "everyone"? Nothing. Nothing they do will ever Fix it" for everyone, especially around this place. So what is left for them to do... carry on and deal with each thing as they see fit because fixing it just for "you" or just "me" is totally unproductive.

The fact that so many don't seem to understand that very simple concept is surprising really.

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

But just because some can adapt to a one wheeled machine does not mean the one wheeled machine is fine.

Sorry I just had to add that...

For those who enjoy uni-cycles, they totally are a blast.

Prawfut Bludskin, on 17 April 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Actually there is a logic to it. its a bit twisted schoolyard bully logic though. "ohh you want (insert anything here), Ok here you go" and then proceeds to hit you in the face with whatever you asked for.

Sound like they took a page out of the "Forums logic path to success. LOL

[Almond Brown]

Fut, on 17 April 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Not sure why you directed this at me.
I only run Mediums, I spend 90% of my Drops trying to assist my allies.

Not directed at you Fut, just stating how being a "Rambo" is John Rambo's gambit. On the MWO field, best to do as you do. Assist others on your Team.