156 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Almond Brown, on 17 April 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

But when a change is made to try and help with that, all they hear is WHINE and QQ. No matter what they do they hear it. Oh right. "It isn't what you/me/him/her, as a single individual wanted, so it is Bah Humbug.

Have you seen the changes PGI makes? There is a reason the boards the way they are.

They screwed over the community for 2 years. So YES, now, everything is met with a TON of criticism and scrutiny.

To be honest, name me one REALLY good and proper thing they've done to this game?

There isn't really one. Every single decent thing they've done has come with major issues as well.

This is PGI's fault, not the community's fault.

[Mcgral18]

TimePeriod, on 17 April 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

/cut

Who cares about meta? I only need two rounds of gauss to knock all those pathetic meta crapbuilds out of the sky.

You're right about one thing, meta kills meta best. Meta kills just about anything best.

Meta is FLD, it has been since HSR's introduction. Even the ye olde Gauss Cat was a pretty good build, even with progessive convergence and no HSR. 30 or 40 FLD is the best type of meta, it doesn't matter how you get it (well, some are more effective, others have more effective range)

As for the topic, STD engine brawling Jaegers can be rather nasty. I personally go 4 MG, 2 AC5 2 LL on mine, since I don't own a Firebrand. It doesn't pack enough ammo to break 1k very often though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

You and me both - spend the last two hours chatting on forums I'm too lazy to get off my chair.

LOL I have to put in another 4 hours or I don't get paid to stay home tomorrow! Then I have to get my Jedi/Ranger/Battlemaster or Dragon Age on till Monday!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mcgral18, on 17 April 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

You're right about one thing, meta kills meta best. Meta kills just about anything best.

Meta is FLD, it has been since HSR's introduction. Even the ye olde Gauss Cat was a pretty good build, even with progessive convergence and no HSR. 30 or 40 FLD is the best type of meta, it doesn't matter how you get it (well, some are more effective, others have more effective range)

As for the topic, STD engine brawling Jaegers can be rather nasty. I personally go 4 MG, 2 AC5 2 LL on mine, since I don't own a Firebrand. It doesn't pack enough ammo to break 1k very often though.

See, I still don't quite consider this brawling, and you are JUST starting to touch on a frankenbuild, but not quite.

You have a ton of range with the AC/5's, and an awesome mid range punch with the 5's/LL's, and then by the time someone gets close, they are probably missing a good bit of armor and the MG's chip in.

MG's are so cheap tonnage wise, that you aren't really missing out by adding them.

But basically you are meta, except LLasers instead of PPC's. So you are just under the meta line.

[AlmightyAeng]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

See, I still don't quite consider this brawling, and you are JUST starting to touch on a frankenbuild, but not quite.

You have a ton of range with the AC/5's, and an awesome mid range punch with the 5's/LL's, and then by the time someone gets close, they are probably missing a good bit of armor and the MG's chip in.

MG's are so cheap tonnage wise, that you aren't really missing out by adding them.

But basically you are meta, except LLasers instead of PPC's. So you are just under the meta line.

Wait wait wait...so now every build that doesn't suck is Meta? He incorporated weapons into ALL his hardpoints with the tonnage he has available. He's got good punch downrange, and while he's gonna be SLOW as hell, he might be able to pick apart unarmored/damaged mechs if they get up close. Looks like a fun, smart build to me...but that doesn't make it meta, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It sure as hell isn't 'pinpoint alpha' or 'mindless LRM spam.' It'll take skill to make it work effectively and good positioning to not get creamed.

If that's meta, then pairing up any lasers with any autocannons is meta...at which point any pairing that doesn't suck which includes 2 out of the 3 weapons systems available is 'meta.' I disagree.

Where do you draw the line?

Edit: I do agree that it isn't a "brawler" build. It's an excellent direct-fire support build with late-game backup/cleanup weapons.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Veranova]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

But the logical thought process that should go into designing and balancing a game like this has never happened. PGI just didn't do whatever good designers do.

Good designers throw ideas at the wall, test the ideas, and then decide what impact those ideas had on the game, I was reading about Titanfall last night, and one of their lead designers lived in the office on 3 hours sleep a night, 5 days a week.
Thing is this was during the last year of development, and with their massive resources for play-testing.
Here we don't have behind the scenes development or much behind the scenes play-testing, because it's a live game and PGI has less resources. Also I believe there are laws in Canada to prevent 21 hour working days 5 days a week
There's a whole book on it, but this is the chapter I read this in: https://medium.com/p/cfc0fd1be7e

Anyway, the best way for PGI to test its ideas in a quantitative way, is to put its thought out ideas in to production, and where possible Public Test. It's very iterative, and slow. But I think most people would agree in the last 9 months we've come a LONG way in terms of balance, and very recently more varied builds have become viable (a la LPL's LRM's & soon SRM's). We're just not quite there yet.

Edited by Veranova, 17 April 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

No, he just tried it for a lark and got netter results than expected. That's that synergy thing. Yes we do need more data than 7 matches (the number of drops I did with him)... But He has slightly changed my opinion on Small lasers. I still wont load 'em, but I won't be as dismissive in the future!

I came to the same conclusion on Small Pulse Lasers after the few recent threads I posted in about them - i thought it would be a laughable idea to put 4 of them onto an Assault mech - but reconsidered on a lark.

I had 4 tons and 4 slots left on my build with 2x PPCs and 1x AC 20.

I needed some backup weapons to cover the 90m PPC deadzone, primarily to deal with face hugging lights.

Then I tested and found I could fire 4x SPLs 25x in a row without overheating vs. 4x MLAS 10x in a row.

DPS is nearly the same, 13 points vs. 20 point alpha (in favor of MLAS) but the damage is dealt in half the beam duration (0.5s vs. 1s) so while they aren't front loaded they are more front loaded than 4x MLAS.

And, technically speaking, 4x SLPs for 4 tons are better "alpha" damage than 1 x 7 ton LPL and they fire every 2.25s.



They are also cute, and red and go "wubwubwub".



(In all seriousness, I'll be putting the same build through some matches swapping out to 4x MLAS and then 2x MPLs to try and see which build loadout strikes the best balance of heat management and damage dealing)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 April 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

See, I still don't quite consider this brawling, and you are JUST starting to touch on a frankenbuild, but not quite.

You have a ton of range with the AC/5's, and an awesome mid range punch with the 5's/LL's, and then by the time someone gets close, they are probably missing a good bit of armor and the MG's chip in.

MG's are so cheap tonnage wise, that you aren't really missing out by adding them.

But basically you are meta, except LLasers instead of PPC's. So you are just under the meta line.

If you ask me he is just touching on a sore spot with us Old Guard and Harmony Gold! His secondary weapons are only off a hair. But he has a bonified Rifleman with Larges over ACs!

And because he can shoot long does not stop him from brawling with his Mech. He has a perfect flexible build. Unlike those who build for only one job.

[Metalsand]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I see people complaining about ALL KINDS of things here on the forums.

Nerf autocannons!

Nerf tonnage!

Nerf teamwork!

Nerf ECM! ETC.

They also complain about what isn't any good.

Lasers suck!

They nerfed AC2 and AC5, wtf!?!?

Jagers get blown up too fast! ETC. ETC. Ad nauseum.

I'm tired of it. This game isn't a bunch of arena matches...(channels Joseph Mallan) it's a futuristic WAR with no real basis in science.

Last night I took out my Firebrand...my 6xML, 2xAC5 Firebrand.

In my last match we started with a guy who disconnected. We had NO assaults. The other team out-tonned us by 115 tons. We had only 1 ECM cicada to their FOUR ECM mechs. We started on the FAR side of Alpine away from "The Hill" at I9.

Half the people on these forums would be screaming about how unfair it is. Instead, me and my 2 guys bucked up and carried hard. Go Kell Hounds.

So please, everyone, stop with the hyperbolic whining. It's tiresome.



* epeen stroking because this was my best game ever so let me have my moment *

I disagree, bad luck is above skill. My very best match was 7 kills, 1 assist, 1421 DAMAGE, and my team lost by 3 MECHS. So in this case, I WAS MY TEAM. They were that braindead that even with me handling multiple mechs at a time and WINNING, they could not beat the remaining mechs ganging up on those mechs.

You can be sure I was pissed, and immediately ragequit for the rest of the day.

Edited by Metalsand, 17 April 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

I totally understand where you are coming from.

But the logical thought process that should go into designing and balancing a game like this has never happened. PGI just didn't do whatever good designers do.

And it causes a ton of issues to crop up.

Yes there are a ton of crappy players who whine. But there are also a ton of really good players who left because major issues never ended up getting addressed.

And a lot of good players still here who keep trying to help PGI see the issues with things like Ghost Heat to no avail.

Keep in mind...they "changed" AC's in a way that I don't think any of us were actually clamoring for.

and then, a lot of good players are left in a metabind BECAUSE of the changes instigated by the whiny crappy players.....

[AlmightyAeng]

Metalsand, on 17 April 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I disagree, bad luck is above skill. My very best match was 7 kills, 1 assist, 1421 DAMAGE, and my team lost by 3 MECHS. So in this case, I WAS MY TEAM. They were that braindead that even with me handling multiple mechs at a time and WINNING, they could not beat the remaining mechs ganging up on those mechs.

You can be sure I was pissed, and immediately ragequit for the rest of the day.

You're conflating my first two options. When I say skill>bad luck I am referring to the "bad luck" of the situation REMOVED from player skill. Ie, the map positioning, tonnage of my team, lack of ecm and non-meta builds put us at a disadvantage to start, but we still won because we played better. According to what's "OP and Meta" that's an upset...and skill was to blame.

Your complaint (without knowing more about the match specifics) is that you had the 'bad luck' of crappy teammates...in which case it's a SKILL problem...not situational bad luck.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

in real war; everything is deadly;

an infantry can take out your armored unit in the blink of an eye.

it's not like you're claiming it is; that some stuff is incredibly powerful and the rest sucks;
all of it is deadly or it woudn't be on the battlefield.

what you really mean to say here is; SRM people stop complaining! you're not supposed to beat my ac20 up close!
only ac20 people is supposed to win; the rest of the players should be useless even before the match launches, based on their loadout!! (just an example, not actually sayin ac20 is the pinnacle of weaponry or anything - but srms do suck and ac40 is kind of BS)

i say nay.
this is a game; a game with no counterpart in real life. we will have solaris arena soon.

it SHOULD be a level playing field for all players. unless you're in an urbanmech. (even locust should go fast enough that it's very hard to hit, as it is right now in the game kinda)

or in titanfall do people ask the developer for the ability to play as the cannon fodder????

I DIDN'T THINK SO

[Burke IV]

I think the balance is good. Many times in the mechlab i have been impressed by what PGI has done to keep my builds sensible I got no real problems with the actual playing of the game either. Reg is no worse than it would be in any other game where i am connecting from the other side of the world. Ghost heat doesnt bother me, i dont know about the maths of it but it feels fine when playing.

6 sml lasers on a stalker kills a light mech? wow surprise

Edit: i like SRMs aswell, but i will have one little whine 3PV...PGI should have known better than to have outside training ground. I see it used in game alot and it shouldnt be there

Edited by Burke IV, 17 April 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[Metalsand]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

You're conflating my first two options. When I say skill>bad luck I am referring to the "bad luck" of the situation REMOVED from player skill. Ie, the map positioning, tonnage of my team, lack of ecm and non-meta builds put us at a disadvantage to start, but we still won because we played better. According to what's "OP and Meta" that's an upset...and skill was to blame.

Your complaint (without knowing more about the match specifics) is that you had the 'bad luck' of crappy teammates...in which case it's a SKILL problem...not situational bad luck.

Not a skill problem of mine, your post was referring to the skill problem of the player himself, and if the player is good enough he can drag a bad team to victory.

There are horrible, HORRIBLE teams out there that you will lose no matter what, just because you were unlucky enough to be paired up to wastes of oxygen.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Wait wait wait...so now every build that doesn't suck is Meta? He incorporated weapons into ALL his hardpoints with the tonnage he has available. He's got good punch downrange, and while he's gonna be SLOW as hell, he might be able to pick apart unarmored/damaged mechs if they get up close. Looks like a fun, smart build to me...but that doesn't make it meta, at least not as far as I'm concerned. It sure as hell isn't 'pinpoint alpha' or 'mindless LRM spam.' It'll take skill to make it work effectively and good positioning to not get creamed.

If that's meta, then pairing up any lasers with any autocannons is meta...at which point any pairing that doesn't suck which includes 2 out of the 3 weapons systems available is 'meta.' I disagree.

Where do you draw the line?

Edit: I do agree that it isn't a "brawler" build. It's an excellent direct-fire support build with late-game backup/cleanup weapons.

Meta right now...is AC's linked with PPC's.

His build is like JUST under meta, because you have 2 AC5's with 2 Large Lasers.

It's not meta Per'sae, but it's built around that concept.

The MG's are so light weight, I'm not really factoring them in, kind of like when a Highlander had some Streak's as back-up weapons.

Jagers themselves are pretty metatastical to begin with it, so it's pretty hard to play that mech in a non-meta fashion.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

in real war; everything is deadly;

an infantry can take out your armored unit in the blink of an eye.

it's not like you're claiming it is; that some stuff is incredibly powerful and the rest sucks;
all of it is deadly or it woudn't be on the battlefield.

what you really mean to say here is; SRM people stop complaining! you're not supposed to beat my ac20 up close!
only ac20 people is supposed to win; the rest of the players should be useless even before the match launches, based on their loadout!! (just an example, not actually sayin ac20 is the pinnacle of weaponry or anything - but srms do suck and ac40 is kind of BS)

i say nay.
this is a game; a game with no counterpart in real life. we will have solaris arena soon.

it SHOULD be a level playing field for all players. unless you're in an urbanmech. (even locust should go fast enough that it's very hard to hit, as it is right now in the game kinda)

or in titanfall do people ask the developer for the ability to play as the cannon fodder????

I DIDN'T THINK SO

True. But not with our standard weapons. M-16s and S.A.W.s have little to no effect on Tank Armor. My reference is th etarget vehicles that have been fired on by small arms for years on Camp Pendleton's live fire ranges.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 April 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Burke IV]

I got my arm shot off once in by a dual ac20 jager and guy on my team says "omg lame" or similar. Its the wrong attitude. Its all fair, i could drive that same mech if i wanted to.

There might be a problem tho that those AC20s came out of thin air with no "background" Not like they have to be salvaged or maintained or etc etc. One of PGIs goals was massive customisation wasnt it? We all have way too much choice what we load onto our mechs. If you had to salvage your weapons you wouldnt care if they were meta or not.

[AlmightyAeng]

Metalsand, on 17 April 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Not a skill problem of mine, your post was referring to poor players' whining hyperbole arguments, and argues that if the players are decent enough they can still win against a stacked situation caused by meta, tonnage and maps.

No offense, but the fixed quote is what my post was about. It may not be what you got out of it, but that's what I was saying.

Quote

There are horrible, HORRIBLE teams out there that you will lose no matter what, just because you were unlucky enough to be paired up to wastes of oxygen.

Well yeah...in those games I see if I did well and I'm satisfied. I don't ragequit just because my teammates weren't performing at the same level. That's luck of the draw. Combat it by bringing in friends who are known quantities.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

True. But not with our standard weapons. M-16s and S.A.W.s have little to no effect on Tank Armor. My reference is th etarget vehicles that have been fired on by small arms for years on Camp Pendleton's live fire ranges.

but that's not war.

in a tank skirmish obviously infantry will have armor busting rocket launchers, missiles that make tanks go boom! even in world war two they had explosive packages that could shred the treads off the tanks

NO general is gonna give their infantry unit just small caliber weapons and tell them to get out there and fight the tanks, just don't happen. it's counter productive it's conducive to you losing your forces.. it's suicide; it's dumb.

in the same line of thinking, a tank game with uneffective weapons is dumb. it's great if you sacrifice firepower for speed in a light mech, but weapons should still be deadly; no insta win button just because your ride has the right hardpoint and the enemy had to do with lasers; if it was that way in real life the generals would retire that underperforming armament;

what would happen if this was real life the generals would have just kept all ballistic mechs for fighting and the laser ones as 2nd line defense at best if not stripped them for parts, maybe done away with LRM and SRM also altogether; just kept the LRM turrets and upped their arsenal to lrm20's. why do you need em to move?

your argument doesn't hold up. armored units in the game need to be competitive as they should be in real life.
if you're not gonna fix a weapon system then retire it. let's just keep the jager, victor and the phract

if you're giving the player choices then have those choices be meaningful.
otherwise it's just simply unfair in the game, as it would be sending a soldier with a pistol on a battle of sniper rifles in real life.

[Tombstoner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Have you seen the changes PGI makes? There is a reason the boards the way they are.

They screwed over the community for 2 years. So YES, now, everything is met with a TON of criticism and scrutiny.

To be honest, name me one REALLY good and proper thing they've done to this game?

I like lasers.... i think they where done nicely, some of the mech art is cool, but everything else can draw on my money pouch succulently for no less then 60 seconds.....

but PGI forgot to add in a factor that can compensate for mech shape and thuss we get perverted mech shapes... density be damned. BTW the timber wolf is a perverted pile of shrunken torso all in the sake of survivability. otherwise a popular mech becomes the new Awesome.