471 replies to this topic

[Hellcat420]

Unusual Suspect, on 17 April 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Certainly so. Across 100+ games (bare minimum, I'd say, for an ok average), the factor that skill presents in the equation will show itself in the results, barring overwhelming confounding variables. The whole point of using such an aggregate score averaged out across so many instances is that, so long as higher skill correlates with higher kdr and the pilot is consistent in other areas (the sort of mechs he uses, the sort of weapons he prefers, etc.), the higher skill over time should be matched by a correlated higher kdr.

what a load of bs. you need to stop ignoring the factors that make kdr not correlate to skill. ignoring them doesnt make them go away, or make you right.

Edited by Hellcat420, 17 April 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Kyynele]

Hellcat420, on 17 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

haha kdr is not a measure of your "progress" in the game. the only thing kdr measures is how many killshots you have, and nothing more.

Well, the other bit besides kills that affects it is deaths. I think we can agree that dying less often is progress?

[Hellcat420]

Kyynele, on 17 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Well, the other bit besides kills that affects it is deaths. I think we can agree that dying less often is progress?

not really since sometimes your death is required for your team to win.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I am just going to report every player on my team in every match I loose until the match maker gets a tune up.

[Kyynele]

Hellcat420, on 17 April 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

not really since sometimes your death is required for your team to win.

I must be playing wrong. Usually when I don't die, my team wins. I must look into this.

Edited by Kyynele, 17 April 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Hellcat420, on 17 April 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

in a team game plain old luck is much, much more of a factor than skill to kdr. especially in a team game such as mwo where there is a lot of focused fire.

wtf.

No, no this isn't true at all. If in your games, luck is a bigger indicator of how a match will go than your own skill, you aren't skilled enough. It has nothing to do with some innate features of the game. You can always make an impact in the match, and if you're good enough it will be a positive one.

If what you said was true there wouldn't be anyone with W/Ls above 1.

[Captain Stiffy]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Players like this are in violation of our Code of Conduct by refusing to participate in the game and match in the spirit in which it was intended. Please report such players to us at Support

Because this... works... now? I knew a group of people that gave up on this long ago because it was totally ineffective.

Also... I have seen lights run for a while but then get 3 more kills when the enemy splits up to find them. I would be almost anything that there are false-positives and people getting banned unfairly if you are actually taking action on this.

Furthermore whenever this does happen people from the team that light is on will almost always rat him out, which is supposed to be illegal too, but somehow the devs put in location tracking to make it easier.

What you guys SAY and what you DO are never, ever the same thing. EVER.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 17 April 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Adiuvo, on 17 April 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

wtf.

No, no this isn't true at all. If in your games, luck is a bigger indicator of how a match will go than your own skill, you aren't skilled enough. It has nothing to do with some innate features of the game. You can always make an impact in the match, and if you're good enough it will be a positive one.

If what you said was true there wouldn't be anyone with W/Ls above 1.

we are not talking about w/l ratio, that is a completely different beast.

Edited by Hellcat420, 17 April 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Alcom Isst]

I'd be more satisfied with the combined K/Ds of all my matches, like 4 matches (12-8, 7-12, 8-9, 12-4) would result in a KDA of 1.18.

[Creovex]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Players like this are in violation of our Code of Conduct by refusing to participate in the game and match in the spirit in which it was intended. Please report such players to us at Support

You sir, get ++rep for being a badass! I love the answer here, totally appropriate and almost Clan worthy!

[Hans Von Lohman]

K/D ratio = killsteals per death.

Still, I like having it be in the positive, but I know it doesn't really mater. Also, damage done just shows how crap of a shot you are, yet people like to post how they did 1000 damage scores.

[Zoid]

Kyynele, on 17 April 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

I must be playing wrong. Usually when I don't die, my team wins. I must look into this.

Depends on the 'mech you're running. If I'm in an Atlas, I know that there are times I'm going to have to just absorb as much fire as possible to break the enemy line and will likely die. There is nothing quite so satisfying for me in this game than soaking up a minute or so of focus fire from 5+ enemy 'mechs and seeing my team kill them all.

If I'm in some sort of missile boat, I'll be sitting back and avoiding damage as much as possible.


As for it being correlated to player skill...yes and no. It's been my experience that the guy with the most kills is the one who did the best job camping and hiding while everyone else was fighting it out, then finished off a bunch of <50% 'mechs.

[Kubernetes]

Hellcat420, on 17 April 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

what a load of bs. you need to stop ignoring the factors that make kdr not correlate to skill. ignoring them doesnt make them go away, or make you right.

Eh. Unless you were born under a bad sign, luck will even out over time. Luck will impact every player more or less the same once you've got enough games under your belt. That is, unless you're suggesting that players with >2 KDR are exceptionally lucky over hundreds of matches, and those with <1 KDR are exceptionally unlucky over hundreds of matches. Every game or sport that is dynamic is hugely dependent on luck for each match or iteration, but over time the better skill will reveal itself in some quantifiable way.

I agree KDR doesn't tell the whole story regarding skill, but it does say something.

[AlmightyAeng]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

There's a difference between making a tactical and incidental use of a game mechanic in the heat of the moment, such as the example you provide, and outright consistent abuse of one by shutting down and hiding at the beginning of and throughout a match several times.

Really? Can all the administrators get together and have a powwow on this? I ask because less than 4 weeks ago this EXACT topic came up and an admin gave the OPPOSITE answer: That if the player participated in the first half, you couldn't report him for choosing to "live" through the end of the game in a hopeless loss situation.

Frankly, I don't care...I'll hunt that last spider down or gladly accept his daring charge, but some consistency on your guys' end would be appreciated.

[AlmightyAeng]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

I believe my response may have been misunderstood. To clarify and reiterate:
Our example of abuse in this scenario is if you consistently shut down at the beginning of a match without participating throughout that match, you are essentially not playing the game, and preventing your team from having an active player who could help them. In engaging this behavior you may be reported, and eventually warned. Continuing to engage in this behavior after warning may result in further sanctions being taken on your account.

Contrary to this, random use of powering down as a strategic maneuver, such as to hide and cool down weapon systems in a last ditch effort to make it to the bitter end, is perfectly acceptable and intended.

I misread the OP post you responded to (missed "at the start"). Still, THANK YOU for the clarification.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Xmith]

What makes you think they were protecting their KDR? Did they mention to you why they shutdown?

I shutdown sometimes because something in my real life needed my attention. Most of the time the match is still active and I can jump in again or I got destroyed when I was shutdown.

Would you prefer they leave the match entirely by leaving the team at a definite disadvantage or stick around in case they are needed.

Frankly, I don't care what people think. I got to do, what I got to do.

[Greyboots]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Players like this are in violation of our Code of Conduct by refusing to participate in the game and match in the spirit in which it was intended. Please report such players to us at Support

This is sort of neither here nor there. When a game leads a player to do this sort of stuff it's a problem with the game as much as with the player. This is a "known issue" that belongs along side other known issues and code should be implemented to correct it.

It's also my understanding that ELO doesn't use KDR. The fact that there's people out there believing differently also displays a problem with structure.

This isn't just a "fair play" issue. It's poor structure which is reduces the enjoyment of players who play within the "spitir" you are talking about. If you care about those players at all you'll do something about it. If not, it's just one more reason in a line of reasons that encourages people to close their wallets to MWO.

Unusual Suspect, on 17 April 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

On a case by case basis, KDR is meaningless. Averaged changes over time, however, have statistical significance.

Unless you're seriously contending that the correlation between player skill and KDR is poor? On a graph plotting that data, you wouldn't expect to see a strong trend of low skill with low kdr progressing towards high skill with high kdr? Honestly?

Also neither here nor there because in MWO this is an exploitable result as per the OP. This means that the data is unreliable for both players and the Devs. This makes it summarily meaningless and of no use to god nor man.

They obviously want to keep KDR as a public stat which I don't have a problem with in and of itself. But IF they are going to keep it they NEED to make it reliable and trustworthy. If not, all those people nursing their KDR are just a bunch of suckers.

Now, to be fair to these players (because they AREN'T all berks who don't care about anyone else);

The earnings structure in MWO is absolutely HORRENDOUS and the matchmaker system isn't much better. People aren't just doing this to nurse their ELO.

Within the first minute you can often tell when you are going to lose because of what the team does. It's often better, earnings wise, to cut your losses, exit the match and just drop in another mech where you might get a team where you stand a chance of earning a lot more.

I can get a match score of 103 and earn under 100k on a loss OR I can get a match score of 103 and earn about 150k + on a win. By hanging around in a losing match you are crippling your earnings.

Again, it's a failure of structure.

PGI, apparently, can't be convinced that they have a problem. They are too sure they've got it right OR are too sure it's of a low priority. My advice? Do as I have. Close your wallet to them until this stuff is fixed. This isn't game where you buy the box and the servers are paid for by that box sale. This is a "free to play" game with a micropayment system.

We often forget that this is supposed to be a sword that cuts both ways. PGI gets more money when they do well through people buying MC. We can also withhold our money when we think they do poorly and it's power for us to force change.

If you don't want people doing this sort of thing? Close your wallet. If you want your KDR to mean something? Close your wallet. If you want skill-based progression and rewards based on personal skill? Close your wallets.

And then don't open it again until they address this stuff in a satisfactory manner. Just don't pay them for doing what you consider is a poor job.

[hercules1981]

I would bet money those players with higher kdr have a higher overall average damage per match then people with low kdrs so my stand is with kdrs actually a meaning of skill to a certain extent.

[WarZ]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

There's a difference between making a tactical and incidental use of a game mechanic in the heat of the moment, such as the example you provide, and outright consistent abuse of one by shutting down and hiding at the beginning of and throughout a match several times.

I see you say absolutely nothing about the a** hat team mates who died at some point in the match, and because they arent interested in waiting the extra few minutes for the last couple living teammates to finish playing, they call out the grid coordinates of living players so the enemy can zero in on their positon in force and gank them.

Grid coordinate call outs happen almost 1 out of 2 matches (for one team or the other). It doesnt happen every match cause a lot of players have no trouble running in for a suicide when all is lost. However heaven forbid you make someone on your team who is dead wait a little, while you try and make "something" out of a steam roll.

But the few of us who try to out maneuver the remaining enemies for a better fight (NOT engaging the entire remaining enemy at once, for example) and maybe just possibly the win (that the dead players dont think is possible) get shafted because of a** hats who call out grid coordinates, BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO WAIT FOR THEIR MECHS.

Hell, if someone is the last remaining player and wants to go off and shutdown somewhere, thats valid too. Cause you know what, I've gotten HUNDREDS of kills because I shutdown, let the enemy spread out to hunt me down, then one or two go walking by my shutdown position or area, I power up, and come out swinging (often with a free shot at their back armor), and take down the hunters. Some punk a** hat should not have the right to take that option away from me because they are butt hurt about their failure.

Maybe you could talk about that as well eh ? I hear devs have commented that players shouldnt do that and it can be reported. I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF ANYONE GETTING A TEMPORARY BAN BECAUSE OF IT.

*** To Fix:
Dead players should not be allowed to broadcast in "all" chat UNTIL the match is over. PERIOD. This is a fairly simple fix that is definately needed.

Added thought:
If you are in the camp that think that last player on your team who is dodging the enemy is somehow taking away your time (for one you SHOULD NOT be playing a multiplayer game in that case), why dont you give some thought to the enemy team that has the option to cap your base in assault, CHOOSES not too. They are just as guilty of extending the game as is the last guy on your team running for this life and or hiding. In conquest, its only a minute or two to lose by caps at that point, so you are losing nothing. And again if a strong enemy team is ignoring the remaining caps to hunt a solo player, they are guilty of "wasting" your time as well. So dont act like an arse that its your team mates always wasting your time. The enemy team has a choice as well. They want that last kill player to pad their stats, and are MORE than happy to make YOU sit there and wait while they ignore cap conditions and spend 8 minutes hunting for ONE lone mech.

So maybe that last player could be thought to be protecting a KDR, but what about the enemy team that is trying to PAD their KDR. Same problem. But those guilty of calling out grid coordinates "GRIEF" their teammates. And that should never be done.

Edited by WarZ, 17 April 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[Greyboots]

WarZ, on 17 April 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

I see you say absolutely nothing about the a** hat team mates who died at some point in the match, and because they arent interested in waiting the extra few minutes for the last couple living teammates to finish playing, they call out the grid coordinates of living players so the enemy can zero in on their positon in force and gank them.

<snip>

Where does ANY of that address the passage you quoted? I smell a hidden agenda.