471 replies to this topic

[WarZ]

Greyboots, on 17 April 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Where does ANY of that address the passage you quoted? I smell a hidden agenda.

Yes a hidden agenda in seeing a community rep address a minor to non existent issue (I cannot remember ever seeing this happen on my team) but to not see comments about a rampant and CONSTANTLY occurring issue (I see grid call outs happen every 2nd or 3rd game ) from community reps. Much less NEVER hearing of ACTUAL repurcussions for calling out grid coordinates.

Constant, rampant, seemingly accepted behavior (by players and devs) that is completely bull**** and is a form of griefing your teammates. Yes consider that an agenda.

[RG Notch]

WarZ, on 17 April 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yes a hidden agenda in seeing a community rep address a minor to non existent issue (I cannot remember ever seeing this happen on my team) but to not see comments about a rampant and CONSTANTLY occurring issue (I see grid call outs happen every 2nd or 3rd game ) from community reps. Much less NEVER hearing of ACTUAL repurcussions for calling out grid coordinates.

Constant, rampant, seemingly accepted behavior (by players and devs) that is completely bull**** and is a form of griefing your teammates. Yes consider that an agenda.

There's no evidence of any sanction what so ever. It's basically pointless to report anyone as there is no follow up from IGP. This creates a disincentive to bother with reporting. Plus they haven't put in an in game report button because they don't really want to ban anyone as the population is small enough to begin with. Now they will say they do something but they won't tell you. So basically when some one makes reporting an extra step and doesn't tell you if anything happens I conclude they don't do anything and stop reporting.

[Bishop Steiner]

WarZ, on 17 April 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yes a hidden agenda in seeing a community rep address a minor to non existent issue (I cannot remember ever seeing this happen on my team) but to not see comments about a rampant and CONSTANTLY occurring issue (I see grid call outs happen every 2nd or 3rd game ) from community reps. Much less NEVER hearing of ACTUAL repurcussions for calling out grid coordinates.

Constant, rampant, seemingly accepted behavior (by players and devs) that is completely bull**** and is a form of griefing your teammates. Yes consider that an agenda.

well, then.


Tell us how you really feel?

[TheCaptainJZ]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 April 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I thought it was pretty specific. There was a clear strategy to the last mech shutting down, because they were going to win by caps, regardless. Engaging in battle at that point, could only run the risk of LOSING the match.

Some people are here to shoot stuff up. Some of us are here to do that, but winning is the first priority, not padding our stats. Too many people refuse to make the sacrifice play to secure the win (or even risk their stats, so they just turtle) because of their bloody stats. I've taken the bullet by being the guy to step on cap to stop a cap win even though I knew I was dead meat for doing it.... but because I knew I could delay them long enough for my team to arrive and fight them off for the (possible) win. I don't see many others who will.

I'm willing to sacrifice myself for the win if it comes to that. But I have seen people asking whether it's reportable for someone to shut down after it's clear their team will lose instead of continuing to fight. I guess I should have put that in my post instead.

[Sagamore]

Isn't KDR a hidden stat? I think its nice to know from a self-improvement perspective but I'd rather play the game than worry too much about it. It can be a futile effort sometimes in solo PUG land. Anytime I want to pad the old KDR I just bring my D-DC out of the shed:

[Skoad]

KDR is needed for games. Its just in our competitive nature.

Now I do wish they could somehow separate KDR by solo games and group games. That would be interesting.

[Wolfways]

Greyboots, on 17 April 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Within the first minute you can often tell when you are going to lose because of what the team does. It's often better, earnings wise, to cut your losses, exit the match and just drop in another mech where you might get a team where you stand a chance of earning a lot more.

I can get a match score of 103 and earn under 100k on a loss OR I can get a match score of 103 and earn about 150k + on a win. By hanging around in a losing match you are crippling your earnings.

I see that as a player problem more than a game problem.
If i see my team is likely to lose i will fight on doing my best to reverse the situation, or at least do as much damage to the enemy as possible before i die
To me fun>earnings, but i'll never understand why those who consider playing a game a "grind" are actually playing. Even if i'm the last mech on my team and i know we'll win if i hide, if i think there's a chance of winning by staying in combat i'll choose combat every time...even if my team have a go at me if we lose. Sorry, but having fun is more important than earning a little extra C-bills by doing nothing.

[Mordin Ashe]

Playing devil's advocate, again... Oh Christ, what have I become. Anyway.
KDR has its place in the current game, probably much more than what we give it credit to. The problem is that until April 29, teams are totaly off balance. You can't do much in cases when you get steamrolled by 10 assaults on small map. You usually can't do much if you are swarmed by 6 ECM light Mechs at once as well. Or just a whole lance of your team are halfwits. Or you can play in group with similarly good players, you work together. Your skill is constant, nothing changes in the playerbase's stats, but the skill gets moer concentrated, thus you have higher chance to win. It doesn't mean you are any better all of a sudden, it just means more favorable conditions. Given this, victory is largely dependent on luck and W/L isn't a good way of judging a player.
Next stat we have at our disposal is Accumulative XP and C-Bills per match. I have no idea whether this is affected by premium or not, but together with KDR this is probably the best way to judge player according to his stats.
Now, we have some summaries, such as numbers or wins and loses in total and total XP points - while you can assume that the more person plays the better it gets, it doesn't tell you anything about the actual skill level of the player. A huge problem. We can agree that for example some guy with at least 3k games should be at least average, but still. It just doesn't deliver the information.
And the last one, KDR. I am an advocate of KDR because of the current state of game. In situation when W/L ration isn't viable, it is this number that shows how much evil are you inflicting on the enemy. This number has its value based on the fact that your goal in every mode is to kill every member of the other team. Without this KDR would be useless, but the rule is there, thus it is relevant. KDR is also less dependent of your weight class, it doesn't reflect your chance to succeed with a purple squirrel build. All it says is how many times you were able to outplay the enemy compared to how many times you got outplayed. If you accept the premise that war is rough and totaly balanced scenarios are myth, this is the core of how the players should be judged.

TL, DR: Once the new balancing is introduced, W/L will be viable piece of statistics again. But until that day comes, KDR is the best we have and I like to know that number if I am to judge the player. Take KDR and accumulated c-bills and XP and you have a good idea about how the person does in battle.

[Kjudoon]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

I believe my response may have been misunderstood. To clarify and reiterate:
Our example of abuse in this scenario is if you consistently shut down at the beginning of a match without participating throughout that match, you are essentially not playing the game, and preventing your team from having an active player who could help them. In engaging this behavior you may be reported, and eventually warned. Continuing to engage in this behavior after warning may result in further sanctions being taken on your account.

Contrary to this, random use of powering down as a strategic maneuver, such as to hide and cool down weapon systems in a last ditch effort to make it to the bitter end, is perfectly acceptable and intended.

That would also include after an 2-11 Roflstomp where you cannot change the outcome of the game, and you had fought and participated (no matter how sucky you did) or were the spotter, you go off and hide to let the other team win and choose not to take the gauss round to the face. Maybe you could get a lucky 1-1 ambush, maybe not.

From my understanding that too is also not abuse of the spirit or letter of the rule, correct?

WarZ, on 17 April 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

I see you say absolutely nothing about the a** hat team mates who died at some point in the match, and because they arent interested in waiting the extra few minutes for the last couple living teammates to finish playing, they call out the grid coordinates of living players so the enemy can zero in on their positon in force and gank them.

Grid coordinate call outs happen almost 1 out of 2 matches (for one team or the other). It doesnt happen every match cause a lot of players have no trouble running in for a suicide when all is lost. However heaven forbid you make someone on your team who is dead wait a little, while you try and make "something" out of a steam roll.

But the few of us who try to out maneuver the remaining enemies for a better fight (NOT engaging the entire remaining enemy at once, for example) and maybe just possibly the win (that the dead players dont think is possible) get shafted because of a** hats who call out grid coordinates, BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO WAIT FOR THEIR MECHS.

Hell, if someone is the last remaining player and wants to go off and shutdown somewhere, thats valid too. Cause you know what, I've gotten HUNDREDS of kills because I shutdown, let the enemy spread out to hunt me down, then one or two go walking by my shutdown position or area, I power up, and come out swinging (often with a free shot at their back armor), and take down the hunters. Some punk a** hat should not have the right to take that option away from me because they are butt hurt about their failure.

Maybe you could talk about that as well eh ? I hear devs have commented that players shouldnt do that and it can be reported. I HAVE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF ANYONE GETTING A TEMPORARY BAN BECAUSE OF IT.

*** To Fix:
Dead players should not be allowed to broadcast in "all" chat UNTIL the match is over. PERIOD. This is a fairly simple fix that is definately needed.

Added thought:
If you are in the camp that think that last player on your team who is dodging the enemy is somehow taking away your time (for one you SHOULD NOT be playing a multiplayer game in that case), why dont you give some thought to the enemy team that has the option to cap your base in assault, CHOOSES not too. They are just as guilty of extending the game as is the last guy on your team running for this life and or hiding. In conquest, its only a minute or two to lose by caps at that point, so you are losing nothing. And again if a strong enemy team is ignoring the remaining caps to hunt a solo player, they are guilty of "wasting" your time as well. So dont act like an arse that its your team mates always wasting your time. The enemy team has a choice as well. They want that last kill player to pad their stats, and are MORE than happy to make YOU sit there and wait while they ignore cap conditions and spend 8 minutes hunting for ONE lone mech.

So maybe that last player could be thought to be protecting a KDR, but what about the enemy team that is trying to PAD their KDR. Same problem. But those guilty of calling out grid coordinates "GRIEF" their teammates. And that should never be done.

Warz, if anyone on your team gives away your coordinates, whether you're hiding or fighting, that is a violation of team treason rules. Screencap, send an email to support@mwomercs.com with the map, time and screenshot of the incident. It will be then dealt with through the mods investigation. They are very good with this.

[FatYak]

I saw someone write something about a KDR less than 1 basically meaning your a crap pilot

• KDR is a terrible way to assess someone ability to be part of a team
  
• KDR is pointless if your dealing heaps of damage per match but your teammates get the kills because they were lucky enough to pull the trigger at the right time
  
• KDR is highly effected by the mech your piloting
  
• KDR does not mean jack if you got rofl stomped for your first 200 hundred matches because of a broken matchmaker and then spent the next 6 months trying to make up the deficit
  
• KDR should be calculated over the last 100 drops you made to actually be a representation of how you are performing now and not an accumulation of the last however many months of play it took to work you the steep learning curve the game has (in fact, ELO should work like this too)
  
• KDR taken over from the time you start playing MWO to the tpilot you are "today" does no represent your piloting skills today, but the piloting skills you had several months ago
  
• KDR in its current form is pointless

Edited by FatYak, 17 April 2014 - 11:20 PM.

[Rex Budman]

hercules1981, on 17 April 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I would bet money those players with higher kdr have a higher overall average damage per match then people with low kdrs so my stand is with kdrs actually a meaning of skill to a certain extent.

Nnnnope! Straight out no.

I'll let you think about why that is...

[Adiuvo]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Nnnnope! Straight out no.

I'll let you think about why that is...

Actually they do. Sorry.

The low damage/high kill thing doesn't stop the person from doing the same amount of damage in a match. it's just more efficient damage.

Edited by Adiuvo, 17 April 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

I saw someone write something about a KDR less than 1 basically meaning your a crap pilot

• KDR is a terrible way to assess someone ability to be part of a team
  
• KDR is pointless if your dealing heaps of damage per match but your teammates get the kills because they were lucky enough to pull the trigger at the right time
  
• KDR is highly effected by the mech your piloting
  
• KDR does not mean jack if you got rofl stomped for your first 200 hundred matches because of a broken matchmaker and then spent the next 6 months trying to make up the deficit
  
• KDR should be calculated over the last 100 drops you made to actually be a representation of how you are performing now and not an accumulation of the last however many months of play it took to work you the steep learning curve the game has (in fact, ELO should work like this too)
  
• KDR taken over from the time you start playing MWO to the tpilot you are "today" does no represent your piloting skills today, but the piloting skills you had several months ago
  
• KDR in its current form is pointless

I'll bite :-)
1) Every person in team has its tasks, but there isn't any other number reflecting how well person performs. From that sea of pointless numbers KDR has still the biggest value.
2) True enough, but as someone who deals great ammount of damage and doesn't get many kills I must say that I still do much better than most. Yes, the curve isn't linear, but higher damage -> more kills still apply.
3) Not really. All Mechs have their roles, as you said. In Light, you can seek weaker Mechs, damaged Mechs and exploit that. Mediums are great flankers and usually very good at focusing fire. Heavies and assaults are obvious. Every Mech has its specific way of killing enemies, but every Mech has at least one, meaning this argument is pointless.
4) Your team may get roflstomped, but if you in that havoc show enough personal skill to kill at least one enemy, which is possible even in very hard stomps, it shows and your KDR is at least 1. No other number gives you that chance. You loose = 0 to wins, and 0 to any meaningful gains for that matter. KDR gives you some chance to do well while the rest of your team sucks.
5) and 6) are the same. Every stat is tracked, and so is KDR. If you sucked in past but got better, your KDR will reflect it. Only the very poor players suffer from poor KDR after thousand of battles, and if they do, they deserve it. Numbers are here to give us information, noone says the information must be positive.
7) Any number is, but KDR is more usefull than others.

To give a meaningful picture of how good player really is, we would have to develop a new index that would take all that can be tracked into consideration. Assists, kills, damage, component destruction, capping, saviour kills, w/l, deaths, if you play in group or solo... But until such index is created, we only have few useful stats at our disposal and KDR is one of the most informative.

[Kubernetes]

"KDR is pointless if your dealing heaps of damage per match but your teammates get the kills because they were lucky enough to pull the trigger at the right time"

This evens out over time. How many times does it go the other way and you deliver a killshot despite another teammate having done most of the damage? It happens every match. This aspect of luck becomes immaterial once you've played enough matches. Are low KDR pilots uniquely unable to get killshots? Are they simply outliers when it comes to luck at killshots?

"KDR is highly effected by the mech your piloting"

Maybe if you only use one chassis or one build or one playstyle the entire time.

I'm simply not convinced by any of these arguments against KDR as a relevant stat. No one is saying it's the end-all-be-all metric of pilot quality, but it's certainly not a garbage stat either. People with big KDRs sustained over hundreds or thousands of matches aren't just getting lucky.

[FatYak]

Mordin Ashe, on 17 April 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

I'll bite :-)
1) Every person in team has its tasks, but there isn't any other number reflecting how well person performs. From that sea of pointless numbers KDR has still the biggest value.
2) True enough, but as someone who deals great ammount of damage and doesn't get many kills I must say that I still do much better than most. Yes, the curve isn't linear, but higher damage -> more kills still apply.
3) Not really. All Mechs have their roles, as you said. In Light, you can seek weaker Mechs, damaged Mechs and exploit that. Mediums are great flankers and usually very good at focusing fire. Heavies and assaults are obvious. Every Mech has its specific way of killing enemies, but every Mech has at least one, meaning this argument is pointless.
4) Your team may get roflstomped, but if you in that havoc show enough personal skill to kill at least one enemy, which is possible even in very hard stomps, it shows and your KDR is at least 1. No other number gives you that chance. You loose = 0 to wins, and 0 to any meaningful gains for that matter. KDR gives you some chance to do well while the rest of your team sucks.
5) and 6) are the same. Every stat is tracked, and so is KDR. If you sucked in past but got better, your KDR will reflect it. Only the very poor players suffer from poor KDR after thousand of battles, and if they do, they deserve it. Numbers are here to give us information, noone says the information must be positive.
7) Any number is, but KDR is more usefull than others.

To give a meaningful picture of how good player really is, we would have to develop a new index that would take all that can be tracked into consideration. Assists, kills, damage, component destruction, capping, saviour kills, w/l, deaths, if you play in group or solo... But until such index is created, we only have few useful stats at our disposal and KDR is one of the most informative.

insighful reply!

I guess what I'm getting at that a great deal of players see KDR as being the "only" guage of a good pilot when there are many reasons why your KDR can be low or less than 1 (i chose that number because someone beforehand said if your KDR is less than 1 you basically suck) and you can still be a competent pilot.

With number 3, i see what your saying, but you cant deny that it is much easier to have a better KDR in some mechs than others

5 and 6, your right your improvement will reflect in your KDR, but it could take weeks or months to show a reasonable return, which a lot of people dont have

And if you have been stuck on the back end of horrible hit registration and a high ping like i have KDR is even more frustrating

thankfully, that's now changed =D

[The Basilisk]

Guys this topic has been turned over and over and over by the devs and community managers.

As long as you DID participate in a match its ok if you just run out of bounds or shut down and hide or what ever.
You did what you could in a game you dealt damage and you received your part and you are not inclined to be sloughtered at its end.
You participated and did your part.
The community managers stated more than once that this is OK.
You are not required to die with a loosing team.
A match lasts 15 min and you have no claim on finishing by a certain other win/loose condition.
On the other hand giving away the position of a participating non disco mech IS ALWAYS a reportable violation of COC.

[Warge]

DONTOR, on 17 April 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

its a good way to measure my progress in this game.

WLR is measure of progress. For medium/light Mechs KDR is killsteal ratio.

[QuaxDerBruchpilot]

TheCaptainJZ, on 17 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Is that PGI's official stance? That you can hide at the end of a match if you participated up to that point? Can someone spell out exactly what is allowed and what is not as many people have different views on the topic and no one is sure exactly where the line is? Or is there no clear line?

Well I think it's pretty clear. One would be an idiot if he would expose himself to enemy fire and possible destruction when his team has the chance to win by ressources. So hiding out in that case is a viable tactic, at least for me (and PGI, it seems).

What PGi is talking about is those guys that hide out despite the clear fact that their team is loosing. Like, the famous last one in Skirmish. Those are to be reported.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Unusual Suspect, on 17 April 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

On a case by case basis, KDR is meaningless. Averaged changes over time, however, have statistical significance.

Unless you're seriously contending that the correlation between player skill and KDR is poor? On a graph plotting that data, you wouldn't expect to see a strong trend of low skill with low kdr progressing towards high skill with high kdr? Honestly?

Largely good KDR does no signify you are a good player, although good players thend to have better KDR

Though a good KDR is influenced the MOST by not dying in a match (Naturally this assumes that you are decent enough to rack kill(s) in matches)
And that is influenced by your last decicion in match; "I am busted up and propably can't take anything beyond couple hits, do I go in and try to disturb enemy enough that my guys can secure victory or do I go somewhere and try to stay alive"

Sure a good or exceptional player can be fairly good in these last desperate moments as well, but when you are just chasing KDR that is accomplished by not dying and hiding is good when you are being rolled.

I tend to go in with reckless abandon when I know I am about to die (Have ever since RnR was removed, loss of mech for me only hits a meaningless stat... whereas a win will net me some more cbills which have a use, although I will be less reckless if I have a decent chance of stealing win from multiple opponents)
Even if I have no weapons, I will try to position myself so as to pull away concentrated fire from a team mate, or provide locks for lrmrs... and if an opponent sees me and takes that shot, I am dead. Hence my general KDR tends to hover 1-2

Should I choose to start saving my mech in the last moments of battle (RnR would cause me to actually not treat the mech so disposable, but besides the point) my KDR would definately go up.

Edited by Haakon Magnusson, 18 April 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[El Bandito]

KDR should stay, at least for individual mechs. Any kind of stats is helpful, IMO.

People are really over blowing this whole "I have no chance of victory so I'll shut down" scenario. Sure it happens sometimes, but I do not recall anything like that happened recently.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 April 2014 - 02:29 AM.