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Has There Been Any Talk Of Change To..

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#1 Darian DelFord

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:39 PM

The Way ELo is calculated. Personally I think its idiotic to base it completely off of your W/L record when you have no control at all over it. I do not pay attention to all the channels out there was just curious. The current state of matching players based on ELO is just abhorrent. Why not base it off of your a pilots individual stats for each chassis. And for the love of Gawd do not start out in the middle of the chart start at the bottom and work your way up so I do not continuously get stuck with pilots who have no idea that a Jenner is not meant to go head first into an assault mechs.

#2 Corwin Vickers

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:38 PM

L2teamwork

#3 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

I seem to recall mention in one of the NGNG podcasts, or maybe one of the Dev VLOGs, that they were looking at alternative Elo calculation statistics. I am pretty sure that they actually asked the community to suggest alternate stats that could replace or enhance W/L calculations.

Personally I am a fan of an amalgamation of W/L (per variant, chassis, or weight class depending on available sample size), % Accuracy (average based on all mounted weapons), and Average XP per match (calculated the same as W/L based on available sample size).

#4 Darian DelFord

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:16 AM

View PostCorwin Vickers, on 17 April 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

L2teamwork


Yeah OK, no way to do that with PUGS who have no clue at all.


View PostLevi Porphyrogenitus, on 17 April 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I seem to recall mention in one of the NGNG podcasts, or maybe one of the Dev VLOGs, that they were looking at alternative Elo calculation statistics. I am pretty sure that they actually asked the community to suggest alternate stats that could replace or enhance W/L calculations.

Personally I am a fan of an amalgamation of W/L (per variant, chassis, or weight class depending on available sample size), % Accuracy (average based on all mounted weapons), and Average XP per match (calculated the same as W/L based on available sample size).


Thats kinda what I want. I do not see how your skill is measured by ELO when everyone starts in the middle and you are grouped with PUGS who have no idea how to play the game and then your W/L suffer because they do not want to listen to folks. I say base it off of your individual performance each match in either each mech or each chassis. They current ELO system is just so unfair and idiotic its not even funny.

#5 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

No control at all?

Just because one can seldom single-handedly decide the course of the match does not mean one has "no control at all over it". If one regularly contributes to the overall success of one's teams, rather than "Rambo-ing" or attempting to pad one's personal stats, then one will tend to win more often, and achieve a higher Elo ranking over time.

Blame "PUGS who have no clue" all you want but, all else being equal, those same teammates are more likely to win with someone who is contributing to overall effectiveness than some know-it-all Rambo. I'd call that some measure of control.

While it would be nice to have some way for the system to particularly recognize contributions and give more credit to those who've earned it, the last thing I would want to see would be more incentive to glory-hound, pad stats, Rambo, sacrifice teammates for personal gain, or otherwise play as a selfish arse-hat.

#6 Darian DelFord

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 05:56 AM

Well you will have to excuse me but when I am doing 400+ damage in every match getting 1-4 kills a match and usually tying up mechs in the backfield. I would expect my "team" to be able to do just as much as I. THAT is why the ELO system currently is broken... case in point.... 12 matches 3 wins since 0500 hours this morning. My contribution is there, the lack of skill on my teammates is not.

#7 East Indy

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:08 AM

View PostLevi Porphyrogenitus, on 17 April 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I seem to recall mention in one of the NGNG podcasts, or maybe one of the Dev VLOGs, that they were looking at alternative Elo calculation statistics. I am pretty sure that they actually asked the community to suggest alternate stats that could replace or enhance W/L calculations.

There are probably a number of patterns among highly skilled players, although some of the data isn't recorded as such:
  • Accuracy
  • Time distribution of damage taken
  • Time spent at high heat without shutting down
  • Damage taken while dealing damage
  • Kills with 75%+ damage dealt to target


#8 Lynx7725

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:13 AM

I cannot deny that there are some PUGs which are clueless. At the same time though, you can influence a match far beyond what you might think. This afternoon, I had the pleasure of working with a PUG on Alpine Skirmish. I basically said 3 things at while the game was readying up. (We were on the high side.)
  • H10 Mountain grab?
  • Alpha go take G9 and provide flanking fire.
  • Bravo and Charlie are main assault up the slope.
And guess what? Everyone knew what to do with those three lines. Alpha lance took and held G9, and lost one Cat at the end of it. Bravo and Charlie.. well I led the charge in my LRMBoat up the slope (!), and they followed. I certainly wished they would follow better and the bruisers would get in front of me when I got them up most of the slope, but apparently they were all long range shooters. ;) Eventually we shoved the opponent team off the mountain and trapped them in the valley between G9 and H10 -- it was a killing zone. We lost only one additional Firestarter, against a team 70 tons heavier than us and packing 3 more Assaults.

A simple plan, clear communication, and commitment from the team people is what is needed. You can provide the first 2 and parts of the third; usually with a clear lead, the rest would follow -- but not always. The important thing is to try.

#9 Darian DelFord

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:23 AM

View PostLynx7725, on 19 April 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:



A simple plan, clear communication, and commitment from the team people is what is needed. You can provide the first 2 and parts of the third; usually with a clear lead, the rest would follow -- but not always. The important thing is to try.


Which is usually followed by "STFU Newb" "No" "Hell no" so forth and so on. Yes some matches it works, most matches it does not and they will not listen no matter what. I try to point the PUGS in the right direction, some do most don't.

That is where the ELO is screwed up, they start in the middle of the scale instead of starting at the bottom of the scale (Well New Players anyways) I think that is the majority of the problem.

#10 Lynx7725

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:28 AM

To contribute to any potential change in ELO calculations, why not take the game score per game instead? That already takes into account a number of game factors, including personal ability to utilize mech build, ability to contribute to team, etc. At the end of day, it's not just about individual proficiency, but also on how the Mechwarrior integrates with the team.

View PostDarian DelFord, on 19 April 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:


Which is usually followed by "STFU Newb" "No" "Hell no" so forth and so on. Yes some matches it works, most matches it does not and they will not listen no matter what. I try to point the PUGS in the right direction, some do most don't.

To be very honest, I get silence more than I get STFU. I'm not sure why.

I usually ask a couple of quick questions at the start (Crimson: "Tunnel or saddle?", Therma: "Caldera or around?" <-- stopped asking that actually, River: "Upper or lower?"), which communicates to the team where some of the people are thinking of going. Generally, people run along with the main group once that comms takes place. Usually is good enough to work with.

#11 FupDup

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:29 AM

Off-topic: When creating thread titles, it's common courtesy to disclose the full topic of your thread in the title itself.

Making people have to read your thread to discover its topic basically says that you're afraid nobody would care about the thread if its topic were explicitly stated, so you're trying to "trick" people into exploring a mysterious/unknown thread in an effort to get people interested in something you think they normally wouldn't bother viewing.

#12 Mavairo

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:30 AM

You effect the battlefield far more than you realize. Even your mech selection plays a huge part in whether you win or die. AWESOME AWS-8Q 28 13 15 0.87 12 17 0.71 4,919 14,755
02:59:22 DRAGON SLAYER 1 1 0 1.00 2 0 2.00 309 1,752 00:07:22 AWESOME AWS-8T 16 10 5 2.00 6 9 0.67 3,257 9,988 01:57:25
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S 14 11 3 3.67 14 6 2.33 3,999 12,953 01:52:39 THUNDERBOLT TDR-5S 35 20 15 1.33 39 19 2.05 10,242 27,082 03:45:52 THUNDERBOLT TDR-5SS 14 8 6 1.33 10 7 1.43 3,379 11,542 01:23:26 CATAPULT CPLT-A1 37 19 18 1.06 36 23 1.57 11,843 24,300 04:22:16

From where I sit looks alot like to me your ability effects things, by quite abit.
More realistically there are all sorts of variables in those #s of course, but among them is not just how receptive pugs are to your communications in team chat and how much they communicate, but how effective you are at communicating. What do you tell your pugs in team chat?
Do you tell them "oh god help me I am dying" or "4G7" The former gets you dead for obvious reasons. The latter typed in just before hostilities begins can mean the difference between not just over all victory or defeat but whether or not you live or die.

Your mech also plays a fairly large part in how things are going to go for you. For example in my ELO, fielding an Awesome is a death sentence because most of us even drunk can infact hit the broad side of a barn at extreme distances. That's 80 tons that is pretty much immediately given up to the enemy. Either because it can not afford to close distances to targets, (and thus has to be an LRM boat which an A1 Kitty can nearly match. Or Exceed in the case of the 8T while also carrying an SRM 20) or because it's going to die at some point. Gauranteed. It's fat, it's slow and it carries mediocre at best firepower.

Are you carrying AMS? If so, your team's survival rate just went up. Are your lancemates? The more AMS, the better. It stacks faster than LRMs do. One lance carrying 4 AMS and 1ECM is actually better than 4ECMs and no AMS. One lance carrying 6 or more AMS (Thank you jester and new Tbolt) and 1 ECM is all but immune to Steel Rain and with the range upgrade modules has a hell of a shield for their allies. Denying the enemy considerably more firepower, keeping you AND your team in the fight longer which means you can deal More damage, take your time on More shots, than extra heat sinks or a slightly bigger engine is going to provide.

Do you carry Tag or Narc on one of your brawlers? If so, again your Team is going to benefit tremendously. Yes you lose firepower for doing this. But your team gains far more than YOU as a player lose. Just the ability to knock out ECM alone, let alone the guidance buffs to friendly missiles makes their tonnage investment very much worth it in the current game.

If you are constantly losing, but are scoring 400 damage and getting multiple kills, there is one very easy to tweak constant in all of your matches. Help Your Team. Communicate with your team. Especially if you are in the backfield. You HAVE to tell your allies what's up. If you are surveying the field from a distance with LRM30 or more, you HAVE to communicate with your fellow teammates, tell them what enemies are where. If you are doing your job as a Distance mech, you should be moving so that you have optimal view at all times for superior bombardment or sniping salvos. That gives you an incredible view of the battlefield. That gives you the ability to providing your team mates are literate or following giant icons on a map, the ability to dictate control.

Battlefield control wins matches. Period. I used to be like the OP. Then I applied my STO maxims to MWO. Communication, and Control will beat out high skilled individuals any day of the week. In STO that means bringing properly loaded ships to assist in crowd control that increase the Teams effectivness by virtue of AOEs, Slows, Repels, Pulls, Stuns, Debuffs, Stops and heavy dots. In MWO that means, AMS, ECM, and if playing the distance game maintaining a superior vantage point at all times and relaying relevant info to team mates. If brawling, that means not just building a superior brawler and knowing how to spread damage or when to hit and fade, but also bringing things that compliment almost any team at any time, like TAG or NARC. While also maintaining superior comms to your enemy.

Edited by Mavairo, 19 April 2014 - 06:40 AM.


#13 Lynx7725

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:41 AM

Hell, even targeting makes a difference to the information warfare and battlefield control. Flickering through a bunch of hollow triangles have the effect of alerting the team that there's a whole bunch of unfriendlies running amok loose and undetected; lobbing a LRM flight over and counting the AMS fire is a good way to see where the enemy are too. Communicating these to the team changes team intelligence, which can change the way the team fights.

EDIT: BTW Mavario, you just convinced me to put AMS on my Orion. Typically I don't because I don't like AMS giving away my position, but given my battlefield role the Orion is meant to fill, it doesn't really hurt me much.

Edited by Lynx7725, 19 April 2014 - 06:50 AM.


#14 Darian DelFord

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:01 AM

View PostMavairo, on 19 April 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

You effect the battlefield far more than you realize. Even your mech selection plays a huge part in whether you win or die. AWESOME AWS-8Q 28 13 15 0.87 12 17 0.71 4,919 14,755
02:59:22 DRAGON SLAYER 1 1 0 1.00 2 0 2.00 309 1,752 00:07:22 AWESOME AWS-8T 16 10 5 2.00 6 9 0.67 3,257 9,988 01:57:25
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S 14 11 3 3.67 14 6 2.33 3,999 12,953 01:52:39 THUNDERBOLT TDR-5S 35 20 15 1.33 39 19 2.05 10,242 27,082 03:45:52 THUNDERBOLT TDR-5SS 14 8 6 1.33 10 7 1.43 3,379 11,542 01:23:26 CATAPULT CPLT-A1 37 19 18 1.06 36 23 1.57 11,843 24,300 04:22:16

From where I sit looks alot like to me your ability effects things, by quite abit.
More realistically there are all sorts of variables in those #s of course, but among them is not just how receptive pugs are to your communications in team chat and how much they communicate, but how effective you are at communicating. What do you tell your pugs in team chat?
Do you tell them "oh god help me I am dying" or "4G7" The former gets you dead for obvious reasons. The latter typed in just before hostilities begins can mean the difference between not just over all victory or defeat but whether or not you live or die.

Your mech also plays a fairly large part in how things are going to go for you. For example in my ELO, fielding an Awesome is a death sentence because most of us even drunk can infact hit the broad side of a barn at extreme distances. That's 80 tons that is pretty much immediately given up to the enemy. Either because it can not afford to close distances to targets, (and thus has to be an LRM boat which an A1 Kitty can nearly match. Or Exceed in the case of the 8T while also carrying an SRM 20) or because it's going to die at some point. Gauranteed. It's fat, it's slow and it carries mediocre at best firepower.

Are you carrying AMS? If so, your team's survival rate just went up. Are your lancemates? The more AMS, the better. It stacks faster than LRMs do. One lance carrying 4 AMS and 1ECM is actually better than 4ECMs and no AMS. One lance carrying 6 or more AMS (Thank you jester and new Tbolt) and 1 ECM is all but immune to Steel Rain and with the range upgrade modules has a hell of a shield for their allies. Denying the enemy considerably more firepower, keeping you AND your team in the fight longer which means you can deal More damage, take your time on More shots, than extra heat sinks or a slightly bigger engine is going to provide.

Do you carry Tag or Narc on one of your brawlers? If so, again your Team is going to benefit tremendously. Yes you lose firepower for doing this. But your team gains far more than YOU as a player lose. Just the ability to knock out ECM alone, let alone the guidance buffs to friendly missiles makes their tonnage investment very much worth it in the current game.

If you are constantly losing, but are scoring 400 damage and getting multiple kills, there is one very easy to tweak constant in all of your matches. Help Your Team. Communicate with your team. Especially if you are in the backfield. You HAVE to tell your allies what's up. If you are surveying the field from a distance with LRM30 or more, you HAVE to communicate with your fellow teammates, tell them what enemies are where. If you are doing your job as a Distance mech, you should be moving so that you have optimal view at all times for superior bombardment or sniping salvos. That gives you an incredible view of the battlefield. That gives you the ability to providing your team mates are literate or following giant icons on a map, the ability to dictate control.

Battlefield control wins matches. Period. I used to be like the OP. Then I applied my STO maxims to MWO. Communication, and Control will beat out high skilled individuals any day of the week. In STO that means bringing properly loaded ships to assist in crowd control that increase the Teams effectivness by virtue of AOEs, Slows, Repels, Pulls, Stuns, Debuffs, Stops and heavy dots. In MWO that means, AMS, ECM, and if playing the distance game maintaining a superior vantage point at all times and relaying relevant info to team mates. If brawling, that means not just building a superior brawler and knowing how to spread damage or when to hit and fade, but also bringing things that compliment almost any team at any time, like TAG or NARC. While also maintaining superior comms to your enemy.



Part of that problem is when your PUG"ing you have no idea what your side has until you are in the launch scree and then it can be a bit difficult depending on your time. Personaly I do not carr a tag on my Jenner. A Jenner is not a scout mech that is not what its designed for, main reason ECM. I stick my head around a corner to try to tag and I am immediately visible to anyone looking my way.

What I have seen since closed beta is the fact that new players start in the middle of the scale. This simply needs to change. Individual effort needs to be recognized for ech mech or class. Personally I am lethal in a Jenner F, stick me in an atlas and I am screwed. my ELO should refelct that. If somoene is constantly doing 500+ damage with 1-4 kills this should increased your ELO IMHO. If someone is only doing less than 50 points of damage with no kills then this should be reflected as well some how. I personally think for obvious reasons.

With the launch module coming up I do not think it is going to solve the problem, I reallly don't. Your still going to have the same things happen just the tonnage may be closer.

#15 Mavairo

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:02 AM

View PostLynx7725, on 19 April 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Hell, even targeting makes a difference to the information warfare and battlefield control. Flickering through a bunch of hollow triangles have the effect of alerting the team that there's a whole bunch of unfriendlies running amok loose and undetected; lobbing a LRM flight over and counting the AMS fire is a good way to see where the enemy are too. Communicating these to the team changes team intelligence, which can change the way the team fights.

EDIT: BTW Mavario, you just convinced me to put AMS on my Orion. Typically I don't because I don't like AMS giving away my position, but given my battlefield role the Orion is meant to fill, it doesn't really hurt me much.


Yeah at this point I take it on everything but my Centurions (just not quite enough room for the firepower and mobility required). Which is okay because my Cents usually end up part of a "battlefield sneak" anyway. My Jenner (Sarah's) doesn't. I'm pretty sure my other Jenners once I start on them will end up with AMS.

Every Heavy I own except my A1 (if LRMs are hitting my A1 things have gone very very badly since it's not near the battle line until I'm almost out of LRMs), (even my flanking Dragons) and every assault carries the max AMS they can. I'll even bump engines down one size if need be, and shave off a heat sink.

Some mechs I think should have 2 on every variant, like the Battlemaster and Awesome. It wouldn't give them High Function compared to the Atlas, Victor and Highlander but it'd be a damn good start.

#16 Mavairo

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 19 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:



Part of that problem is when your PUG"ing you have no idea what your side has until you are in the launch scree and then it can be a bit difficult depending on your time. Personaly I do not carr a tag on my Jenner. A Jenner is not a scout mech that is not what its designed for, main reason ECM. I stick my head around a corner to try to tag and I am immediately visible to anyone looking my way.

What I have seen since closed beta is the fact that new players start in the middle of the scale. This simply needs to change. Individual effort needs to be recognized for ech mech or class. Personally I am lethal in a Jenner F, stick me in an atlas and I am screwed. my ELO should refelct that. If somoene is constantly doing 500+ damage with 1-4 kills this should increased your ELO IMHO. If someone is only doing less than 50 points of damage with no kills then this should be reflected as well some how. I personally think for obvious reasons.

With the launch module coming up I do not think it is going to solve the problem, I reallly don't. Your still going to have the same things happen just the tonnage may be closer.


That's why you should take stock of what you have. First I start with my lancemates when I drop solo. find out what they're carrying and plan accordingly. I carry Tag on the 9S Thunderbolt. It doesn't even have missiles of it's own. I carry it for the benefit of the other mechs that Do have missiles. I also use it as a tracer line for my ER PPC. It's amazing how often people will cower from seeing TAG and one ER PPC firing down range at them from long distance. It'll keep them suppressed or knock out ECM, or even better knock out ECM and give the LRM a targeting solution. And hey anytime I'm in a brawl and happen to be tagging someone (every single fire group has TAG in it since it's 0 heat) I make extra cbills when LRMs come in. It helps their damage and I make more money. Everyone wins, well except for the red team. They get to burn.

The gap between higher and lower ELO players isn't all that high I've found on an Individual level in most cases. most of the time it's because they are dropping solo and do not communicate effectively, or do not think of what they can do to increase the effectiveness of their lance mates, beyond designating targets. You don't see alot of AMS in mwo, for example because everyone wants to max out cooling and direct damage on their mechs, but do not consider how survivability effects things. Anyone that drops with my 9S or Jester notices straight away the impact of 2 AMSs. The ones that stick near me tend to live alot longer, and kill alot more targets.

There are actually ELOs for each class unless they changed it since implementation. My Light Mech ELO is terrible, I have maybe 20 matches in Light Mechs and hit shows everytime I que up in them. I see ALOT more Trail mechs, and Bad Builds when I field my lights than I do my heavies, mediums or assault mechs. I don't think it's coincidence since the lionshare of my light mech experience limited as it is was in a Locust.

You should try Tag on your Jenner. It's not a matter of "just being a scout mech" you can get into places most mechs can't being small (the underside of the ramps in HPG for a classic example), and not only that, but on your slashing runs, if nothing else you are able to knock out ecm on one mech. Or if you are reinforcing your assault team mates (My favorite role in my Sarah's), the TAG will function like it does in a brawl for my 9S, or Narc on my 5SS. Tag and Narc shouldn't necessarily be on Every mech since some mechs do not fufill that role. (either due to lack of ECM, or a severe lack in firepower ie sub 38) But there are quite a few mech builds that stand to benefit tremendously for someone carrying Tag or Narc. Not saying TAG is going to work out for the Jenner, I don't have a ton of seat time in one yet. But like AMS it's more often than not Undertaken.

Launch module is going to help because over all the flow of damage is going to change, it's going to drop slightly. It's also going to make the experience more forgiving for people to learn on. In addition to putting a forced shift into the current meta. Which is going to have the high level pilots having to readapt and learn the gameplay at the same time the newbies are.

Edited by Mavairo, 19 April 2014 - 07:22 AM.


#17 Zoid

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 07:30 AM

I think what you're seeing is more the effect of averaging of ELO for your team. 12 1500-rated players will probably beat 6 2000-rated players and 6 1000-rated players because the 1000-rated players will be dead in the first few minutes without doing much damage, leaving it 12v6.

Look at scoreboards after a particularly lopsided game and you'll see what I mean. Almost every time, if it's a blowout there will be players on the losing side with <50 damage. I don't care how many 'mechs you had on you, you can do more than 50 damage in a match unless you're absolutely awful.

#18 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:06 PM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 19 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

What I have seen since closed beta is the fact that new players start in the middle of the scale.

Well, see, if you're going to make an argument, you should at least try to come in with some small knowledge of WTF you're talking about. New players do not come in at the middle of the scale. No, they don't start at the absolute bottom, but that's because the way Elo works, it needs to be possible for a score to actually go below starting.

If the bell curve that PGI showed is to be believed (I don't see what they'd gain by lying), new players start off a couple hundred points below to top of the curve, which is a considerable way down the low side of the curve. A couple hundred points is actually a pretty significant difference in Elo rankings. In fact brand new players start even lower until they get through the cadet phase (which I personally think should be longer and with additional MM restrictions). Now, you probably are thinking they should drop the starting point even further. But if you were better at math, you'd understand that the difference between the starting point and the top of the curve isn't defined by PGI, but by the relative skill of the new player to the average player. That's how bell curves work. If the average player was better, the top of the curve would move away from the starting Elo level.

#19 Darian DelFord

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

What I am seeing is people who have absolutely no clue how to play this game being teamed with people who know how to play and its a crap shoot as to which sides wins. Why do they not just stick all the new players with an ELO of 0 and let them work their way up. As they climb they should (theoretically) get better. I am sick and tired as are others of losing matches because we are stuck with new players who are clueless and will not listen. Even if you do your damnedest in a match to help, you are only one mech, Once again why am I, at my skill level, being placed with first timers when I have been in this game since closed beta.

Makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

#20 Bobzilla

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  • LocationEarth

Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

The way I see it, one team has to lose and one has to win. Any single players actions don't affect much, I find a disconnected player has no effect on the outcome. Just play for fun and if you have to judge your performance, base it off what you normally do, not your teammates.





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